Page 583 of 645 FirstFirst ... 83483533573579580581582583584585586587593633 ... LastLast
Results 11,641 to 11,660 of 12895

Thread: Miracle Control

  1. #11641
    Predictor of Miracles
    Minniehajj's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2015
    Location

    Columbus, OH
    Posts

    458

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    For those new to the whole "Predict" thing, I wrote a primer a few months back, after GP Columbus. Here it is again, for posterity's sake:
    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post956685
    Quote Originally Posted by B88 View Post

    People Use Statistics as a Drunk Uses a Lamppost — For Support Rather Than Illumination

  2. #11642

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Minniehajj View Post
    For those new to the whole "Predict" thing, I wrote a primer a few months back, after GP Columbus. Here it is again, for posterity's sake:
    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post956685
    That's a pretty good explanation, though I think you don't quite have a handle on card advantage. You say:

    "Predict is a true source of Card Advantage. Now, a deck like miracles doesn't seem to really be wanting for an effect like this, but let's take a closer look: Not much in Miracles actually creates card advantage! Virtual card advantage is created by Counterbalance/Top, while cards like Brainstorm and Jace, the Mind Sculptor (ideally, in conjunction with fetch lands) create actual card advantage. Outside of those two scenarios, however, card advantage is difficult to generate."

    Which is not quite correct. Counterbalance is virtual card advantage only if you never counter more than one spell with it, which usually only happens in situations where your opponent has given up or when they have Abrupt Decay in the deck and so are playing towards it. It is a 1-for-1 if you counter a single spell or they Abrupt Decay it immediately, and then once you have countered the second, third, forth spell (etc.), you are generating card advantage by using one card (Counterbalance) to counter multiple other ones. Counterbalance, along with Jace, The Mind Sculptor, are sources of real card advantage. Brainstorm + Fetchland is not card advantage at all, not even virtually. It is a cantrip (CA neutral) that also offers a variable improvement in card quality, which is still extremely valuable but a very different thing from card advantage. It's not actually Ancestral Recall, it just feels like it sometimes. In addition, sweepers like Supreme Verdict and some of the sideboard cards like Izzet Staticaster and Kozilek's Return (and most commonly Terminus, though the cards go back into the deck so the actual card advantage is difficult to quantify) generates card advantage every time you get more than one creature, Snapcaster Mage is usually a 2-for-1 (when it's not just Ambush Viper, and when the opponent spends a card to remove it), and Entreat the Angels and Monastery Mentor generate card advantage (a token is generally considered to be worth about half of a card, and blocking a Delver of Secrets with a surprise 4/4 angel is certainly card advantage), though it's less important there because you usually win the game very shortly after casting one of those.

    It's why Miracles is better classified as a control deck, rather than a prison deck. Prison decks generate virtual card advantage by stopping the opponent from ever playing anything. It is virtual because, while the lock pieces are in play, you can be said to be ahead on card advantage, but if they opponent can wriggle out of the lock, then all of those cards can be used again. A control decks generate actual card advantage, answering cards with cards so that there is nothing to wriggle out of. If an opponent runs a test spell or two into Counterbalance before they can get it off of the table, those cards are gone. If they are holding those spells until they can Abrupt Decay a Trinisphere, they still have those cards to play with and have only lost tempo. Point is, Miracles has always had ways to generate card advantage throughout the deck. A 4 Predict, 2 Jace list is about as capable of generating card advantage as a 4 Jace, 1 Predict list from back in the day, but where Jace has a high ceiling and costs 4, Predict has a high floor and a low ceiling and only costs 2. Some see that as an advantage, some prefer to play the more powerful card, but both builds of the deck are about equally good at generating card advantage in the short term. Given enough time, Jace will crush Predict in card advantage, so the choice is largely one of wanting to play a long game or a short one. But Predict didn't suddenly introduce card advantage to Miracles. Miracles has always had card advantage, in a lot of different ways, and is one of just a few decks in the format that actually does, which is why it is one of the few decks in the format that can play a control game.
    Last edited by benthetenor; 03-16-2017 at 05:06 PM. Reason: clarity

  3. #11643
    Member
    Sibelius's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2014
    Location

    London
    Posts

    156

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Anders Theisen has written the second part of his Miracles Primer

    https://thelibraryatpendrellvale.com...he-pointy-end/

    Sib

  4. #11644

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    To add to benthetenor's post. Brainstorm does more than improve card quality. No other Legacy deck abuses the card Brainstorm more than Miracles because it does double duty at improving your hand quality and putting cards on the top of the deck that you don't want in your hand to begin with. But every Miracles players knows this.

    I would definitely say a lot of people don't understand how the card Counterbalance generates card advantage when it's not a lock piece. Counterbalance can also act as a Time Walk in a lot of spots too. For example - I go Island pass, opponent goes Land, Deathrite. I then go Island, Counterbalance, pass. Some percentage of players will throw a spell into the Counterbalance where you get a percentage shot of blind flipping. Another percentage of players will leave up Abrupt Decay mana, where you then get a virtual Time Walk which is incredibly useful in the early turns of the game so that you get to establish your mana base and set up your next plays of the game.
    "Take your time."

    Legacy: UWR Miracles
    Vintage: UW Landstill

  5. #11645
    Member
    MXG's Avatar
    Join Date

    Sep 2015
    Location

    SoCal
    Posts

    34

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    I'd like to discuss the merits of Null Rod in the sideboard of Miracles, primarily as a mirror-breaker, but with obvious power against Storm decks, DnT, and even Belcher.

    LordofthePit23 5-0'd with a list like this, demonstrating at least some potential viability: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...gue-2017-03-16
    MTGO: Maxtortion

  6. #11646
    Member
    JohnOfTheCool's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2017
    Location

    Inside the church of the cool
    Posts

    1

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Null Rod does seem like gas vs mud decks too. And if it 5-0 a league it must be good right?

  7. #11647
    The Agonistic Antagonist
    CutthroatCasual's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2015
    Posts

    989

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by JohnOfTheCool View Post
    And if it 5-0 a league it must be good right?
    Not necessarily. That being said, it's an interesting experiment but not one that I think is worth it. SDT is just too good in the mirror.
    The purpose of any moat is to impede attack. Some are filled with water, some with thistles. Some are filled with things best left unseen.

  8. #11648
    Member
    MXG's Avatar
    Join Date

    Sep 2015
    Location

    SoCal
    Posts

    34

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Not necessarily. That being said, it's an interesting experiment but not one that I think is worth it. SDT is just too good in the mirror.
    So, here are a few reasons why it can be good in the mirror, specifically in the 4 Predict shell:

    - When both player's Tops are shut off, you are essentially crippling both player's deck-manipulation abilities. However, when you have 4 Predict and they don't, you suddenly have a drastic advantage in terms of controlling your draws, especially with revealed cards from both their Counterbalance and yours. Your CB can reveal a card to one spell, and when they try to cast another of a different CMC, you can Predict that card away to get a fresh reveal. Even better, you can Predict their cards away to help resolve your own spells.

    - When they have Mentors and you don't, shutting down Tops is actually more asymmetric than it may seem at first, since Top accentuates Mentor's power so much, and while is nice to have in order to Entreat on the end step, is not strictly necessary. Besides, you can still trigger your entreat on their end step via a Brainstorm or Predict.

    - If you have a CB/Top lock in play, you're not obligated to play the Null Rod if you see it. Just use it as a CMC 2 to flip to CB, or shuffle / Predict it away. Meanwhile, if they have an active Top and you don't, you can now just slam a Null Rod and negate their advantage.

    - EE is frequently used as a catch-all in the Miracles mirror. LordofthePit's list doesn't play any of this card, and just shuts down your opponent's EEs. Your Angels just got a lot safer.

    I'm not saying Null Rod is the "hottest new tech" for the Miracles mirror, necessarily, but I am saying it might not be quite as bad as it looks at first glance.
    MTGO: Maxtortion

  9. #11649
    Cabal Therapist
    TheArchitect's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2010
    Location

    Colchester, VT
    Posts

    600

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by MXG View Post
    I'd like to discuss the merits of Null Rod in the sideboard of Miracles, primarily as a mirror-breaker, but with obvious power against Storm decks, DnT, and even Belcher.

    LordofthePit23 5-0'd with a list like this, demonstrating at least some potential viability: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...gue-2017-03-16
    Have you tried slashing green for gaddock teeg and choke?

  10. #11650
    Member
    MXG's Avatar
    Join Date

    Sep 2015
    Location

    SoCal
    Posts

    34

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by TheArchitect View Post
    Have you tried slashing green for gaddock teeg and choke?
    Slippery slope, nice.

    Putting that aside for a minute, Null Rod / Stony Silence effects have already been shown to be viable alongside one's own Moxen / Black Lotus in Vintage. Anti-synergistic cards typically look far worse on paper than they end up being in practice.
    MTGO: Maxtortion

  11. #11651

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by MXG View Post
    Anti-synergistic cards typically look far worse on paper than they end up being in practice.
    See: Monastery Mentor & Terminus

  12. #11652
    Clergyman of Cool
    lordofthepit's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2009
    Location

    Daisy Hill Puppy Farm
    Posts

    1,954

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Hey guys, I ended up playing Null Rod after the initial inspiration came from Poron. I was reluctant to try it out but Minniehajj gave me the jolt I needed. I think it was him (but not sure) that mentioned that in the mirror match, you have to be able to properly shift between extending the game and closing it out, as outlined in old theory from Who's the Beatdown. So I figured I'd give it a try.

    After running Null Rod in a bunch of leagues, my conclusion is it is very good at shutting down activated abilities of artifacts.

  13. #11653

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect."

    Mark Twain

  14. #11654
    Site Contributor
    Whitefaces's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jun 2013
    Location

    London
    Posts

    1,378

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    I'm starting to come around the the idea of Null Rod actually, there are some subtleties I didn't fully appreciate before. Thanks Poron for the innovation, and lordofthepit for trying it out. I'll give it a spin at my LGS next Legacy night and report back.
    Quote Originally Posted by CutthroatCasual View Post
    Storm was killed by Leovold
    Quote Originally Posted by LegacyIsAnEternalFormat View Post
    The power of blue is overrated...I personally play Jund and I consistently top 4 FNMs with it.

  15. #11655
    Predictor of Miracles
    Minniehajj's Avatar
    Join Date

    Aug 2015
    Location

    Columbus, OH
    Posts

    458

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Poron View Post
    "Whenever you find yourself on the side of the majority, it is time to pause and reflect."

    Mark Twain
    You're a legend! Can I send you my null rods to sign please???!?!? I know I'm not alone when I say that you're an inspiration to us all!
    Quote Originally Posted by B88 View Post

    People Use Statistics as a Drunk Uses a Lamppost — For Support Rather Than Illumination

  16. #11656

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    if you block both his EE and Top (which here means Terminus) a single Mentor gets you out of the mirror, often.

    Anyway nowadays it's good only against Equipments, Vial, Top and LED/Petals.

    Sulfur Elemental is much better against white decks where Rod would be useful and against storm decks we normally don't really need more than Flusterstorm and CB.
    A 2cc sorcery anyway is not where we want to be at that point CB is simply better.

    Null Rod is an idea for a shock transformational SB.
    It's (or it can be) a good card for a meta really packed of artifacts.

    It's not the current one

  17. #11657

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Minniehajj View Post
    You're a legend! Can I send you my null rods to sign please???!?!? I know I'm not alone when I say that you're an inspiration to us all!
    haha I would sign them "to MUD, with love. Poron"

  18. #11658
    Clergyman of Cool
    lordofthepit's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2009
    Location

    Daisy Hill Puppy Farm
    Posts

    1,954

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Poron View Post
    haha I would sign them "to MUD, with love. Poron"
    Oh man, this is so exciting.


  19. #11659
    The Agonistic Antagonist
    CutthroatCasual's Avatar
    Join Date

    Mar 2015
    Posts

    989

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    Quote Originally Posted by MXG View Post
    So, here are a few reasons why it can be good in the mirror, specifically in the 4 Predict shell:

    - When they have Mentors and you don't, shutting down Tops is actually more asymmetric than it may seem at first, since Top accentuates Mentor's power so much, and while is nice to have in order to Entreat on the end step, is not strictly necessary. Besides, you can still trigger your entreat on their end step via a Brainstorm or Predict.

    I'm not saying Null Rod is the "hottest new tech" for the Miracles mirror, necessarily, but I am saying it might not be quite as bad as it looks at first glance.
    Addressing this one point for now, considering most decks are moving away from Mentor as the main finisher and going back to ETA because of how the meta is reshaping, Null Rod does less in the mirror than it may have done say 2 months ago. That could still change.

    As for artifact hate in the mirror, 2 Wear//Tears are still brought in and while they wouldn't hit Top (that doesn't have a draw effect on the stack), they would still be able to get an EE off the board if you needed it gone.
    The purpose of any moat is to impede attack. Some are filled with water, some with thistles. Some are filled with things best left unseen.

  20. #11660

    Re: [DTB] Miracle Control

    I play a very "stock list" of predictless, nonlegend, miracles. My meta is full of bug decks (predict seems good here), death and taxes (better matchup imo postboard), and combo (mainly snt). What sideboard cards do you find most pivotal in this meta? I was thinking of playing sulfur elementals, but I have trouble fitting the 2 into a "normal" stock miracles board. Suggestions?

    I've been flirting with landstill, meanwhile, for my meta but the dnt matchup is horrible.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)