I'm of the opinion that 1-2 Transmutes are good but intuition is just the nuts IMO. It's a triple tutor with Welder on the Table. Don't forget that Intuition gets better after board because it finds anything while Transmutes just finds artifacts.
I find Transmute + Monolith Package very interesting. This along with a a couple of Wurmcoils is potentially powerful because you can potentially can go T2 Grim monolith into a T3 Transmute for a Wurmcoil. You can then chain transmutes for even more wurmcoils + wurmcoil babies. This is obviously very different than the intuition lists and the whole deck has to be rebuilt from scratch. Could be an interesting experiment and could help us play around Mental Misstep.
We might end up with a MUD-esque painter deck?
4 Seat
3 Furnace
3 Volc
5 Fetch
1 Island
3 Tomb
2 City
3 Opal
4 Grim Monolith
4 Transmute Artifact
2 Wurmcoil
4 Welder
4 Brainstorm
4 Top
2 Intuition
3 Painter
3 Grindstone
4 Force
2 REB
Grim monolith is actually a pretty solid card. You can use it to "store mana" for activating Grind later and it's ridiculous with Transmute artifact. If you draw Wurmcoil, you can actually hard cast it with the help of a Grim Monolith or just power it out with a bunch of Sol lands.
I wouldn't really consider the 3rd color "stretching" because there are so few white cards in the deck, and the effects on the manabase are minor, being a single Tundra over a 4th Volcanic. You already run 5 fetchlands so the color requirements are irrelevant as they all tap for blue anyway. Plus the other cards you get from white (Cannonist, Seal of Cleansing) are worth it as combo matchups can be difficult and Seal is there to handle Null Rods in addition to Wurmcoil, but can also be good against Counterbalance, the mirror, equipment, Humility, etc.Originally Posted by TheProfessor
They've earned their slots imo, especially ThopterSword. Having that flexibility gives the deck a reasonable means to beat matchups game1 that it has no business beating, like Emrakul decks or Zoo. Normal UR lists CAN NOT win game 1 against Emrakul unless there's some stroke of luck where they beat them to death with Welders and Painters, and Zoo is incredibly hard because keeping Painter alive is so difficult. The trade off to give the deck another really strong win condition far outweighs the fact that you don't run a full set of Painter/Grindstone. Plus, the fact that Transmute Artifact turns anything into a combo piece really allows you not to run the extra copies. It doesn't hinder the consistency at all, and running a full set of Transmutes arguably increases it.
My tournament results are limited because I bring a different deck to most events I play with, but I managed a 4-2-2 record at SCG: Dallas (both draws were unintentional and had me in winning position, losses were to Belcher and Burn), and I've won one local tournament and top4'd another with the deck out of the 3 times I've run it in events.
Average uninterrupted kill is turn 3-4, but I've done numerous turn 2 kills and the rare turn 1 kill. I think it's worth going off slightly slower to increase the consistency of the deck, not have it go all-in on a Painter only to have it killed, and to not have the deck stuck with bad cards like LED in the middle of the game where it's essentially useless.
Between playing in tournaments and testing I have a pretty good idea on its matchup vs. the entire metagame, although this also doesnt account for Mental Misstep. Here is a list of matchups that I've played against:
Merfolk - By far and wide my favorite matchup. Cursecatchers are very weak, you run a lot of bombs, and they are pretty cold to a resolved Welder or Ensnaring Bridge. They also lack any sort of removal so Welders and Painters have a ball. Blasts out of the board help, as can additional Needles or Meekstone.
Goblins - Goblins can be harder to handle than Merfolk because they can randomly open with Lackey and run you over, but they also have little in the way to stop you. You threaten a turn 3 kill pretty easily and they can also do very little about an Ensnaring Bridge or ThopterSword combo. Wurmcoil is also insane here too.
Zoo - Zoo will always be a tough matchup for a Painter deck. Lots of burn, Path, Pridemage, etc, with a decent clock is tough. ThopterSword is huge here as they're cold to it without a Pridemage, and Wurmcoil is insane if you can protect it. They generally reserve their removal for Welders and Painters, so Wurmcoil can go unchecked fairly easily. But either way I don't like this matchup, but Mental Misstep will help.
Junk - If they have access to Pernicious Deeds, then this can be rough. Pernicious Deed is brutal. Otherwise, I'm okay with playing this matchup. They have a decent amount of removal, but discard doesn't hurt you nearly as much as it hurts other decks because you can drop your hand so quickly. Between Welders, Painters, and Ensnaring Bridge, they generally can't match the amount of stuff you throw at them. I'd say the matchup is slightly favorable, but again adding Deeds in the mix throws things off a bit.
Ichorid - Game 1 can be tough if they're able to race you, but you can still easily turn 3 them. It's essentially a toss up there. Game 2 is in your favor because you can recur graveyard hate with Welders and find it incredibly easy with all your tutoring power. ThopterSword is also very good against them as well, as is Ensnaring Bridge if you manage to trim your hand low enough.
Bant - Depending on the version this can go from even to favorable. Most lists only run 1-2 copies of Qasali Pridemage for GSZ, so you can generally go off safely, but they can also threaten Natural Order which can be rough if you're not able to secure a Transmute early. If they run Trygon Predator out of the board it can be a nightmare, but fortunately you can Blast them easily. Otherwise they only have 4 FOW, 4 StP, and a few artifact removal to handle your suite of Welders and combo pieces. It can go either way but you generally can outmatch them with bombs.
Team America - I currently like this matchup because they have very little removal, but adding Mental Misstep will be more difficult to resolve Welders. Otherwise, Welders are a nightmare for them, and they have a very difficult time winning through Ensnaring Bridge, Meekstone, or Wurmcoil Engine. They can hit your manabase a bit which can hurt and cost you games, and they can board in Pernicious Deeds, but the matchup can go either way. Overall I'd say it's even.
CounterTop - Despite Counterbalance being an issue for the deck, it's really the only card I worry about in these matchups. Outside of Counterbalance they can't put much pressure on you nor can they disrupt your gameplan very easily. Post-board you're trading additional removal from them for Blasts from you, and I think we have an edge in card advantage thanks to our tutoring power.
Lands - This matchup is essentially a bye. They have a lot of dead cards, and theiir only outs are having early recurring Wastelands and Ports, but they have nothing in the way to stop your shenanigens. Needle hurts them tremendously as does Crypt. They could possibly bring in Chalice of the Void or Leyline of Sanctity out of the board which can be annoying, but generally I've always been happy to sit across from this.
High Tide - You run just as much disruption as they do game 1, and have a faster win condition. However, they can outdraw you easily, and Cunning Wish -> Rebuild is a pain, but it's fairly even game 1. Post-board, you have REB, Cannonist, and Mindbreak Trap (which will likely become Misstep). You annihilate them post-board, as you still have a faster win condition, AND have triple the amount of disruption they do.
Tendrils - They go off faster than you do and have decent protection. It's certainly unfavorable if you're not able to secure an early Cannonist or win condition. Force of Will helps as will Mental Misstep but these matchups are still difficult.
Death & Taxes/White-based Vial decks - These typically do very little as far as bother you. They can have Swords, Mangara, maybe Pridemages, etc, but their removal is scarce enough to put a dent in you, much like Goblins. I'll play against these decks all day long.
Burn - You can essentially throw out the Painter plan here as they'll always be able to kill it. And Welders. And they'll have blasts. Fortunately, you have ThopterSword and Wurmcoil Engine, which can't be dealt with so easily. Still not a favorable matchup though, and I mention it because it keeps popping up at large events and is decent against a lot of the upper- tier.
By far the most awesome Painter list I have tested yet! Huge props for creating that incredibly fun thing!
Di, if you made up your mind about Mental Misstep in the list or still need ideas , just PM me =)I am really looking forward to play this baby!
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
I REALLY like the way this looks. You've folded the Wurmcoil SB plan into the maindeck but it retains some consistency. Although I think I'd rather have the 4th Painter over the 4th Monolith, just because it's what players tend to target the most, and it powers up REB.
The board could be something like this:
Sideboard:
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Misdirection
3 Tormod's Crypt
2 Pithing Needle
1 Grim Monolith
1 Duplicant
1 Sundering Titan
1 Jester's Cap/Ensnaring Bridge/Ethersworn Canonist
Thanks, this is gonna take some testing. I actually really like duplicant, it RFG's their best creature and gives you a big body. You can Transmute it later for a something else like wurmcoil. I'm not sure about the Sundering titan though. It seems uncastable without Transmute + Monster. I agree that the 4th Grim should be a painter. Could be very interesting!
There are at least five ways to get robots into play:
1. Hard cast with Tomb/City + Monolith/Opal
2. Transmute Monolith floating mana
3. Transmute a different robot
4. Intuition or Transmute (not paying) then Weld
5. Grind off the top, Weld
1 & 2 are obviously harder to do with Titan, but not impossible.
There are lot of robots to choose from...
Wurmcoil
Steel Hellkite
Myr Battlesphere
Sundering Titan
Duplicant
Sphinx of the Steel Wind
Inkwell
even Mindslaver is an option
I'm going to test Shattering Spree in my SB, as it will hopefully answer Chalice. Chalice is what I'm really worried about at the GP as far as this deck goes, and this card provides nice splash hate for the increasingly popular Affinity lists and artifact decks. It's nice that a single Shattering Spree for 3 mana can kill both a Trinisphere and a Chalice at the same time. :)
Just a short question on this: Does a replicated Shattering Spree actually dodge chalice@1 ? Isn't the cmc also 1 for each replicated copy?
I personally rely on Ingot Chewer to answer Chalice.
Copies are put on the stack, not cast.
Level 2 Judge
Owner, Tales of Adventure Comics and Games, Coopersburg, PA
Just to clarify, Chalice of the Void triggers when you cast a spell. Yes, all the copies of Shattering Spree have a cmc of 1, but CoTV will only trigger for the original.Just a short question on this: Does a replicated Shattering Spree actually dodge chalice@1 ? Isn't the cmc also 1 for each replicated copy?
Tusk up.
I have been testing this deck extensively using Ken Briscoe's 14th place list from the Boston StarCity Open, which can be found here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=38049. A local player's extensive success with the deck encouraged me to learn the deck in order to better fight it. The sheer power of the deck, however, has convinced me to consider it a definite contender for my own selection.
Although the deck is quite consistent, I'm concerned with resolved permanent-based hate. While the deck can draw or tutor for additional painter's servants or grindstones or utilize goblin welder to recur pieces that have been countered or destroyed, a resolved null rod, pithing needle, chalice of the void, humility, or wheel of sun and moon, among others, can shut down the combo completely, blanking any future drawn peices. Currently, the deck can only answer a permanent by resolving painter's servant and then using a REB or Pyroblast. With only two in the main deck, Blasts cannot be intuitioned for and cannot preceed painter. At a recent small tournament I was playing against Natural Order Elves in the finals and my opponent managed to resolve an early wheel of the sun and moon through the light countermagic this deck packs. While I was able to win both games, this was only possible because the elves player presented only a minimal clock. Playing 43 lands against another player wielding U/R Painter, I was able to buy many, many turns free of resistance by landing a null rod, eventually forcing a concession. As the deck stands, permanent based disruption supported by any clock whatsoever presents a serious threat.
As such, I am considering the addition of bounce spells to the maindeck. The options are repeal, wipe away, echoing truth, and chain of vapour; each with different advantages. In order to utilize intuition 3 bounce spells appears to be the ideal number. Possible candidates for removal are the trinket mages, blasts, and potentially 1 of a combo piece - i.e. intuition. Doing so would reasonably cost the deck a degree of speed but add possibility to a number of formerly dreary board states.
Conversely, the addition of New Phyrexia to the format will bring with it the much over-hyped Mental Mistep. While this card does not solve all of our problems, it helps deal with a number of concerns, notably spell pierce and removal for painter's servant and goblin welder. Regrettably, the number of removable pieces is tightly limited and so Mental Misstep competes for slots with bounce spells.
Thoughts? Concerns? Brilliant, metagame-shattering additions to the deck?
Humility does not stop Painter's color changing ability because their effects are in different layers. That was changed with M10 rules. As far as the other permanent hate goes, yes, blasts are sometimes the only answer. But they are pretty good answers to everything, and you pack 6+ of them post board.
Nonetheless, I've been playing a list with maindeck Grim Monolith/Transmute Artifact/Wurmcoil Engine which adds an alternate win condition to the deck in case Painter/Grindstone gets hated out. It sacrifices some of the speed of LED, but it gives you more options to play around hate. Also, Monolith is much kinder with counters than LED is, and has a very powerful interaction with Transmute. Read up a few posts and you'll see.
Correct, humilty does nothing........my only thing more favorite than a player casting humilty thinking it wins them the game, is players searching up Sword of Fire and Ice.........and then burning all their mana trying equip it with painter out on blue. The other day I ran into the full tool box........I actually had 3 painters out, one on blue, one on black and one on white..........he had all 4 swords out....he cried. Especially when an untouchable Wildfire Emissary hit the table (was playing imperial version)
Later EddieO
Well, since I've also been playing the deck since the early days of Painter Servant, I believe this would be a right time to post my list. I top'd 4 in a local tournament with 60 players recently, here's the report (in spanish) if you wish to have a read (http://www.ingeniobcn.com/turbo-xxx-articulo-report)
TURBO XXX v2.0 - By Jordi Amat
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Volcanic Island
2 Polluted Delta
2 City of Traitors
2 Great Furnace
1 Flooded Strand
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
4 Grim Monolith
3 Mox Opal
3 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
4 Goblin Welder
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Inkwell Leviathan
1 Platinum Emperion
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Intuition
SB: 4 Show and Tell
SB: 4 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
SB: 4 Sneak Attack
SB: 3 Blightsteel Colossus
Cheers :)
piZZero - Jordi Amat
Thats definitely nice to know. I am kicking myself for missing the humility interaction but thank you for letting me know. As far as answers, my comments were directed specifically at the pure combo based version I cited above, which has two blasts main and four post board. I have seen your list, however, and it appears quite promising. I have played control-based painter decks in the past and appreciate the efforts to slow down the opponent. Wurmcoil offers a viable beatdown plan while ensnaring bridge - currently a very attractive option - shuts down aggro when your servant - welder gets outclassed, as it often will. I agree that the monolith is much less all-in against blue decks, though you potentially lose a turn against faster decks, needing to play the monolith. The changes in your list cannot be merely ported over, depending on the inclusion of transmute artifact, but certainly merit testing.
I am going to pilot Di's list with MD +1 Crypt SB +1 Peedle on Sunday.
Considering that Ichorid sees an awful lot of play around here and NPH coming up I expect even more Dredgers on Sunday.
Other big decks tend to be spiral tide and GW Stuff, so I think my deckchoice is very solid for this event. I am about to let you know how it turned out.
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
Turn 1 Ancient Tomb, Grim Monolith
Turn 2 Seat of the Synod, Painter, Grindstone, tap Monolith, activate Grindstone with Force backup
Turn 1 Ancient Tomb, play Grim Monolith
Turn 2 Volcanic Island, Tap Monolith, play Wurmcoil Engine
Turn 3 Volcanic Island, attack with Wurmcoil for 6, play Transmute Artifact sacrificing Wurmcoil, put two wurm tokens into play, search for and put Myr Battlesphere into play, then play Mox Opal and Goblin Welder
When people talk about doing broken things in Legacy, these are the kind of plays they mean.
I've reached a final decklist that includes the Wurmcoil backup plan maindeck, without diluting the primary combo or wasting sideboard spots. There are fewer turn 1 kills than Caleb Durwald's version, due to absence of LED, but the fundamental turn is still turn 3. Most importantly, the deck doesn't auto lose to Sneak Attack/NO Show and Burn game 1. Force of Will is also considerably better in the deck without LED. The sideboard is robust, since it isn't clogged up with worse combos, and wasted space like Emrakul.
U/R Transmute Painter
4 Goblin Welder
4 Painter's Servant
4 Grindstone
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Mox Opal
3 Grim Monolith
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Myr Battlesphere
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Transmute Artifact
2 Intuition
2 Mental Misstep
4 Volcanic Island
4 Seat of the Synod
3 Great Furnace
2 City of Traitors
2 Ancient Tomb
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
1 Island
Sideboard:
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Pyroblast
2 Mental Misstep
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Pithing Needle
1 Duplicant
1 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Spellskite
Some notes on card choices:
Grindstone - Never play less than 4. You might be tempted to play more tutors instead, but don't. Don't turn this deck into control with a combo kill. It's not one. Redundancy is speed. You can always shuffle them away, Transmute them, grind away your top 2 to dig with Top, or put robots into play with Welder. You can also grind away opponents cards in response to counterbalance trigger, any card that was just E-Tutored, or a flipped Top.
Sensei's Divining Top - Same as above. They shuffle away easy enough, and are so important at achieving metalcraft and searching for combo pieces.
Mox Opal - Don't play junk like Lotus Petal or Mox Diamond instead. Opal lets you play and spin Top on turn 1, and helps you keep mana open for blast or Misstep all game.
Grim Monolith - It is (1) acceleration, (2) Welder fodder, (3) Metalcraft enabler, and (4) Transmute food all wrapped up in one shiny package (see examples above).
Wurmcoil Engine / Myr Battlesphere - They are each reasonably hardcastable, especially with Monolith. Both are sickeningly good with Welder and Transmute, since they leave dudes behind. Wurmcoil is better at racing aggro, whereas Battlesphere is more resilient against Jace and Swords to Plowshares, so playing both provides a bit of flexibility. Transmuting one into the other is always fun.
Blue Spells:
Force of Will - It is the best defense for Painter there is. Granted, if you don't have a blue card and painter gets countered, it sucks. But lets be honest, this deck rolls blue control decks post board. I board it out for blasts and Needles against Merfolk.
Transmute Artifact - I've said this before, but Transmute is like Tinker in this deck. It gets a combo piece, often cheaper than Intuition does, and sacrifices less tempo if your opponent has a counter. It also combos with Monolith to tinker a robot, or entombs one if you have a Welder to dig it up. Four was just too many in testing, and three feels right.
Intuition - Better than Transmute with Welder in play, since it can grab both combo pieces, but resolving more than 1 of these in a game can be awkward. It's nice to have as backup.
Mental Misstep - These used to be blasts, but since we now have a way around Needle/Revoker on Grindstone with robot beats, they aren't quite as necessary game 1. Misstep helps with the blue count and is virtually as good as blast at protecting Painter against an unknown opponent.
Manabase:
Ancient Tomb - Went down to two because of Transmute's mana requirement, and because 22 land is slightly overkill. The life loss is also a liability against aggro, so this was an easy cut for me.
Sideboard:
Ensnaring Bridge - Decent against the format. Along with Duplicant, improves the NO Show/Sneak Attack matchup, but is vulnerable to Woodfall Primus/Terastodon.
Spellskite - Works like Kira in the deck, but has a number of advantages. Since it's an artifact, it has all the same synergies with Welder, Transmute, Opal, etc., and it's easier to cast. The 4 toughness is also nice, because it can soak up a lightning bolt per turn or block Nacatls.
Counterbalance - Fits nicely into the curve, and seals up the combo matchup. Also helpful against Burn and Zoo. I recently cut this in favor of Skite, but it's still a good option if combo is popular.
EDIT: Phew. Cleaned up the post a bit. Comments??
Last edited by keys; 05-10-2011 at 08:30 PM.
I like it!!! :D I'm just about to order the parts now online :D
I'll do extensive testing of this deck after I drop by singapore :D Might acquire some imperials down there for my other grindstone deck. (Yes i'm obsessed with grindstone decks.. dunno why...)
I actually research on the Counter balance idea (see BOM deck). Thanks for cleaning it up keys. i really want to comment but I havent not yet tested your variant so I would like to reserve comments until after i've done some testing :D Have you played this at any tourneys yet? or FNM?
Actually Turn 1 isnt too critical now as I feel Mental misstep will take care of that. I'm doing a few mental calcs on the curve and I think its better now. Always thought that LED's had too much of a drawback.
Finished reading the rules for the Transmute always thought the sacrifice was a requirement of the cost.. only to realize that i'm wrong :p Sacrifice is only applicable if the spell resolves O.O
That changed recently...
I like this approach too. Played the deck at a local tournament and I forgot about Chalice @ 1, which is kinda annoying. With transmute you can easily play around that, loving it.
I think it's a mistake to omit LED entirely in a Transmute-based list. It turns Transmute Artifact into a Black Lotus in some situations, which is huge when going off on two lands or on turn 3 when you played the 2nd combo piece as well or whatever. It happens quite often. LED also makes Intuition much better, and is integral to going off easily with it in conjunction with Welder. The Painter/Grindstone/LED pile with Welder in play is generally the best play you can make with Intuition on turn 2/3, as it enables you to combo off both without having 3 lands in play or through Wasteland.
I'd personally cut the 21st land for it, but I'm sure you could find otherwise. I also think you could shift the maindeck Blasts to the side in favor of Mental Missteps. It's just a better card for the slot given it isn't as narrow, and counters StP aimed on Welder within the first few turns. Plus it'd support your dangerously low blue count for Force of Will. Factoring Painter into that is a mistake because half the time Force is there to help Painter get into play in the first place. With only 13 blue cards I see some serious issues with the consistency of Force in your list.
@ Counterbalance in the side idea:
I tested this for a while and discussed this with a few people, although a majority of my testing had it in the maindeck, and although I found it okay, I thought it was a bit clunky. It's decent in the matchups you listed, but outside combo, there are other, better uses for slots. Sure, it's great against burn, but so is a turn 3 Wurmcoil Engine, or the ThopterSword combo, or hell even Leyline of Sanctity (which is decent against combo as well). It's okay against Zoo, but if you're on the draw it's practically dead as they already have 2-3 creatures in play by the time you stick it, not to mention you lose some speed and consistency by siding them in, so you aren't able to race them as often as you normally would when they're hitting you for 5 a turn starting turn 2-3. Otherwise, I'm not really sure where you'd want to board them. They're bad against other aggro matchups (Merfolk, Goblins), our curve doesn't support it well enough for midrange aggro-control decks like Junk as we can't reliably counter Knight of the Reliquary or Wasteland, and against blue decks we have 100 blasts so they're unnecessary. But if you're really looking to go that route, then I'd consider swapping the 4th Tomb/City for another blue source, because you need to get as high of a percentage to hit UU on turn 2 as you can.
Also, those sideboard Misdirections could probably be Diverts. Without Painter having the blue cards in hand can be difficult enough as you don't ever want to pitch Transmutes or Intuitions if you can help it, and they're going to walk into Divert an overwhelming majority of the time.
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