[SCD] Mental Misstep

[Gui]

Combo-killer: hell no, not even close. for details: emidln already cleared it out fine.

And here I thought emidln said it was stronger than MBT against combo, as long as played right...

[tsabo_tavoc]

Yes.

Yes. Mindbreak Trap has the same problem of holding this for my combo turn (only scarier since it's comparatively much harder to play around (trading a card for MM is fine, but trading your hand and the game for mindbreak trap is not).

You aren't going to beat combo on their terms on their turn very often. The tempo play for the second best card in their deck and most powerful card in they can play at the moment (Brainstorm) is far more likely to buy you the time you need to turn sideways for 20 compared to hoping for interaction after they've sculpted a perfect hand.

Thanks a lot for your insight:) A combo player preys on a MM on the combo turn for being a +2 storm (pay 2 life=1 storm).

The next question is, which one is a better non-permanent dedicated Storm (SI/TES/ANT/DDFT) hate, MM or Trap? Obviously neither is devastating, but you somehow inferred that MM is a better choice.

Edit: A smilar question/statement from Gui, here is longing for confirmation from the Storm expert:)

[nwong]

MBT on its own isn't exactly strong against combo.

[practical joke]

And here I thought emidln said it was stronger than MBT against combo, as long as played right...

The point is they will do a completely different thing against combo.

MBT the bigger effect on its own. Costing you the game if you run into one, but MM has the option to disrupt the combo players plan of plays when you take down a brainstorm.

MM will buy you time when played correctly (this will sometimes have no effect at all, but that's all up to chances), while MBT only has to be played around untill the turn they go off.
When MM does this, it'll hit something irrelevant and produce the following effect.
Counter target dark ritual, add 2 storm. Which result into 3 storm for 1 black mana as a combo player. Well ty = )

then again MM should be great against spiral tide since it actually stops the engine (high tide)

[alderon666]

I think it's hilarious how many ppl think this card will have a great effect on legacy.

It will see play, but there's only a limited ammount of decks that will play this card since it otherwise doesn't fit their strategy (and it's funny how many ppl think it actually fits their strategy while in fact it hardly has one or an ineffective one).

Combo-killer: hell no, not even close. for details: emidln already cleared it out fine.

It's not going to be played in every deck like ppl are saying. But it's going to change the format, that you can be certain of.

Suddenly that Vial on the play isn't such a win/win situation where it either resolves or trades for 2 cards. Zoo players aren't getting such a fast start by playing a 3/3 turn 1. StP and Path aren't going to be so reliable anymore. And getting CounterTop online might become a bit harder.

Solid card, but I don't like it at all. Just whacks the color pie and promises too many changes, instant staples always have the possibility of just being overpowered.

[Justin]

One drops are crucial in Legacy. The ability to counter your opponent's one drop for free on turn one when you are on the draw and without card disadvantage is broken. You will see 24-32 of these in almost every top eight. I suspect that Mental Mistep will be banned from Legacy eventually.

[GGoober]

Goblins most likely won't need it. The can deal with StP anyway, and they can't squeeze anymore non-goblins given the stock lists are so tight at the moment. This is definitely a tremendously huge card in Merfolks, Tempo Thresh, and in control shells. It will also be good in Bobs.dec e.g. the Rock, although I'm no expert in that archetype to comment on this, at least I don't see how it would be a bad card when it's a free disruption, in lieu with what the Rock is seeking to achieve in the early game, not to mention a protection to push Bobs to victory.

[Gui]

Goblins most likely won't need it. The can deal with StP anyway, and they can't squeeze anymore non-goblins given the stock lists are so tight at the moment. This is definitely a tremendously huge card in Merfolks, Tempo Thresh, and in control shells. It will also be good in Bobs.dec e.g. the Rock, although I'm no expert in that archetype to comment on this, at least I don't see how it would be a bad card when it's a free disruption, in lieu with what the Rock is seeking to achieve in the early game, not to mention a protection to push Bobs to victory.

if this start seing play, golbins will have to play it to counter opposing missteps, with the "bonus" of countering opposing StP/PtE and increasing consistancy against combo... well, I'd play it. xD

[Sims]

One drops are crucial in Legacy. The ability to counter your opponent's one drop for free on turn one when you are on the draw and without card disadvantage is broken. You will see 24-32 of these in almost every top eight. I suspect that Mental Mistep will be banned from Legacy eventually.

Very bold words for a card that isn't even legal for play yet. We don't know how the format will change or adapt to the presence of this card, we just have theorycraft and speculation.

I don't think just blanket saying every deck will play it is correct. Some decks won't play it even if it is beneficial to them in some way because you have to find the room and the correct cards to remove to fit it in. To be blunt, I feel it's going to find it's way into very few current legacy decks in a direct -x spell +4 MMS fashion. This card is going to cause decks to be stripped down and rebuilt from the ground up either to use MMS or to take it into account. The card is powerful, probably one of the more powerful blue spells they've printed in a while aside from Jace, the Mind Sculptor... but to flat out say it will be banned eventually is likely false.

Right now we seem to be in a period where counter-top decks are being forced out of major top 8's (in America at least) by the midrange disruption decks, which in turn are losing to combo. That's how the past few SCG's have turned out. I think the meta is going to destabalize for a brief period as people start working on how to best abuse, protect, or ignore the presence of Mental Misstep.. as a result we might see therebirth of some archtypes that were mostly forgotten, we might see something completely new pop up (like how New Horizons came out of nowhere at the beginning of the midrange hype), or we might see no change at all and a smaller portion of the metagame adopt Misstep into their decks as additional hate for a bad matchup.

TL;DR: it's far too early to tell how this card is going to impact the metagame, especially since this entire thread has been based on pure theory and conjecture and has no testing basis behind it. Please wait until the card has been run through the gauntlets and people have had time to adopt it in whatever fashion they see fit (new decks, old decks, revamped decks) before people start screaming that the sky is falling, the format is warped, and that the card will be banned eventually.


Edit:

if this start seing play, golbins will have to play it to counter opposing missteps, with the "bonus" of countering opposing StP/PtE and increasing consistancy against combo... well, I'd play it. xD

No. Goblins will not have to play it to counter Missteps on the other side. They can suck up their turn 1 lackey getting countered, write down that they now have to deal 2 less damage to win, and then play Vial on their next turn like they did even when their Lackeys were FoWed.... Yes it hurts that now Lackey/Vial isn't necessary a 1 mana hymn to tourach, but they are still a very threat dense deck and can win without vial and lackey even against control. Mono-R goblin decks also have access to Instigator to offset the lackey/vial being countered.

This is like telling me that I need to start playing Mental Misstep in Dredge, no questions asked, because i am going to need it to counter the Missteps targeting my Putrid Imp... It's a card that does not further Goblins game plan, same as it doesn't really further dredges game plan outside of 1 turn of protection. It's not a necessary card. It might be adopted or played, but saying the deck will have to play it seems a stretch

[Peter_Rotten]

Awesome thread. These are always my favorites on MTS. After all is said and done, this...

...is a perfect fit for my Slippery Boggle deck.

[kilukru]

A card that have he potential to actully slow down the format? I say yes!

[4eak]

I know I'm going to pickup a playset of these Legacy-destroyers. Hehe.

Seriously, I do think this is a cool card. I'd be surprised if it doesn't see play. I'm not sure what decks will end up playing it; I assume one example might be a tempo deck (which doesn't need to be blue) that strongly wants to see neither StP nor Vial.


peace,
4eak

[ummon]

One drops are crucial in Legacy. The ability to counter your opponent's one drop for free on turn one when you are on the draw and without card disadvantage is broken. You will see 24-32 of these in almost every top eight. I suspect that Mental Mistep will be banned from Legacy eventually.

I don't think it'll be banned. It'll become another FoW.

[Deady]

I think it's hilarious how many ppl think this card will have a great effect on legacy.

It will see play, but there's only a limited ammount of decks that will play this card since it otherwise doesn't fit their strategy (and it's funny how many ppl think it actually fits their strategy while in fact it hardly has one or an ineffective one).

Agreed. In fact it's only really great for decks that have serious problems with some specific one-drops in Legacy; otherwise it isn't as great as many people think it is.

This could easily replace Spell Snare as a 2-off in more recent 4C Supreme Blue Countertop builds, with 2 more in the side. Why? Because it answers their most problematic 1 cmc cards; Vial and Stifle. That's about it. The fact that it can also protect Lavamancer from dying to a bolt/path or stp is just a bonus here, but definately not a reason to run it.

Most decks are just better off to follow their game plan/strategy, instead of wasting space for a conditional counter for random 1cmc cards.

Also nobody wants to play 4 Sinkholes without any more LD next to it.

Well, you get the idea.

Mental Misstep can mess up the consistency of many decks that follow a particular strategy/plan, so for most decks in Legacy it wouldn't be maindeck material. Also it seems kind of narrow as a sideboard card, unless there are specific one drops the particular deck has serious, note: SERIOUS problems with.

That's how I see it.

[Gui]

No. Goblins will not have to play it to counter Missteps on the other side. They can suck up their turn 1 lackey getting countered, write down that they now have to deal 2 less damage to win, and then play Vial on their next turn like they did even when their Lackeys were FoWed.... Yes it hurts that now Lackey/Vial isn't necessary a 1 mana hymn to tourach, but they are still a very threat dense deck and can win without vial and lackey even against control. Mono-R goblin decks also have access to Instigator to offset the lackey/vial being countered.

This is like telling me that I need to start playing Mental Misstep in Dredge, no questions asked, because i am going to need it to counter the Missteps targeting my Putrid Imp... It's a card that does not further Goblins game plan, same as it doesn't really further dredges game plan outside of 1 turn of protection. It's not a necessary card. It might be adopted or played, but saying the deck will have to play it seems a stretch

Sorry, yes, I didn't want to mean they will have to (I know, my mistake), but rather that they can do that and that I don't think it is a bad solution, and to be honest, I lurked the idea from Goblins thread.

And yes, Dredge won't have to play it (it doesn't fit dredge at all), but they will have problems with it.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

Agreed. In fact it's only really great for decks that have serious problems with some specific one-drops in Legacy; otherwise it isn't as great as many people think it is.

If you have serious problems with any 1-drop, you aren't playing Legacy--or you're not piloting anything worth playing in Legacy.


The key to winning games consistently is redundancy. MM provides a degree of redundancy (in the right framework) that is hard to ignore. The question, then, is whether and when something else can better fill that role. MM is not going to fit into every deck, but it's going to fit VERY well into a few. What still needs to be determined is exactly how it'll fit. It's certainly an option that blue-based tempo should be taking very seriously (between FoW, Daze, MM, and Snuff Out, I'm having a field day!).

[Justin]

Upon further review, I agree that it is too early to say whether or not Mental Mistep will be banned. My head is still spinning from reading the spoiler. It seems too good not to maindeck for most decks. There are some decks that might not maindeck it because there aren't too many slots to fit in in (such as Goblins because it goes against the tribal synergy from Ringleader), but it seems that almost everydeck in the format will want to have it in the sideboard at least.

Mental Mistep also seems great against most decks. There are some exceptions such as Aggro Loam and decks that maindeck Chalice of the Void. To really analyze how good it will be, one would have to examine the top ten or so decks in the format and see how many of those run a lot of one-drops that you want to counter. I haven't had time to do that, but I imagine that the vast majority of them do.

Mental Mistep COULD eventually be banned if it is in the 75 of the vast majority of decks that top eight at major tourneys. I'm not sure if this will be the case. We'll have to wait and see. Another argument that some may make against it is that it takes the fun out of the format. It could become a card that everyone is trying to squeeze into their deck and it will limit the number of times a player successfully resolves a spell on his turn one. On the other hand, as Kilukru argues, one could argue that slowing down the format is a good thing.

[Tacosnape]

I think this is the most format-changing card I've seen since I've been playing Legacy outside of cards that changed the format by being inherently broken. (In other words, isn't Flash) This is like Force of Will, in that it's glue that keeps things from being broken, but it's nutbar strong glue.

I think these are the decks that get weaker with the inclusion of this card:

1. Rock/Junk/BW Confidant/Anything relying on Thoughtseize for disruption. Mental Misstep is going to screw with your card quality/advantage hardcore. It stops Top/Vial/STP/Whatever, and it stops you from Thoughtseizing Dark Confidant removal out of their hands. Or Thoughtseizing anything crucial out of their hands that they're going to do next turn.

2. Dredge. Dredge HATES this card. Counters Putrid Imp, Breakthrough for 0, Careful Study, Cabal Therapy, Tireless Tribe, Chain of Vapor on their hate, etc.

3. Storm Combo. Mental Misstep isn't backbreaking for them, but it's yet another obstacle and one that anyone can run. Blue decks will love how it stops Silence and Duress, while more aggressive decks will love its ability to hit Brainstorm, Ponder, Dark Ritual, etc.

4. Almost every other combo deck in the format. More interaction means less broken shit.

And I think these are the decks that get better with the inclusion of this card:

1. Merfolk. Helps keep Merfolk from being slightly too slow. Counters Bolt, STP, and all that great 1-drop removal, and counters tons of semi-problematic cards like Mother of Runes, Grim Lavamancer, Thoughtseize, etc. Now if they just start sideboarding Energy Flux to deal with...

2. Colorless/Semi-Colorless decks. Tomb/City/Artifact decks love anything that punishes the entire format for running 1-drops. It's like watching everybody on the playground get in trouble except you. They won't run it, won't care if you run it, and will love the format for caring about it. Expect a lot of decks like this to emerge. Ironically, this moves Dragon Stompy from tier 6 possibly all the way up to tier 4. Hurrah.

3. Burn/Sligh. Oh noes. Don't spend 2 life to counter my shit. Not that.

And I think the jury's still out on:

1. Goblins. Goblins would like to run it, due to the fact that it's decent against every combo deck alive and quite helpful with manabase disruption. Goblins also doesn't like seeing it, as not being able to hit Vial as reliably means it'll be harder to cheat down the land count and fit it in. The bright side is that Mental Misstep can counter their Mental Misstep on your Aether Vial, too.

2. Countertop, Tempo Thresh, Bant, GW Aggro, etc: They all wouldn't mind playing it. They all don't want to see it used against them. Again, wait for Misstep on Misstep action.

EDIT: Also, there is NO WAY Mental Misstep will ever get banned. This fixes so much degenerativeness and forces so much new creativity into the format.

[ummon]

EDIT: Also, there is NO WAY Mental Misstep will ever get banned. This fixes so much degenerativeness and forces so much new creativity into the format.

The more I think about it the more I agree. This is going to heavily change (no certainly not break) the format. But I think it'll be a change for the better.

Edit:

3. Burn/Sligh. Oh noes. Don't spend 2 life to counter my shit. Not that.

That's great against non-blue decks. Blue decks on the other hand will simply pay the cost, making it a commonly played BEB.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Again, we have plenty of examples of Goblins surviving and thriving with 29-30 Goblin cards. I'm not saying that every Goblins deck or Zoo deck would run Misstep- it seems like a cyclical card, ready to wax and wane from 30% of the format, mostly main, as combo starts freaking people out, to 10%, mostly side, as combo weakens and control decks become more powerful; which will lead back to combo, etc., rinse and repeat.