Conceding, The Spirit of the Game, and A Proposal

[Tammit67]

It's not an issue of simply being competitive more than it is a difference in how we view the game.

If I showed up and said, "Hey, man, scoop to me for no reason." Would you say, "Of course I will because, unlike everyone else, I am not too focused on winning and I can recall my humanity!"


If someone hasn't won by turn 5, I don't see them as having a winning board position (or not). I see them as having failed to win and having earned a draw.

If I want to scoop to them because that would let them into top 8 and they were a nice opponent (and they wouldn't scoop me in obviously) or because I'm friends with them, that's my prerogative, but to me it's not an issue of competitiveness at all.

I would agree being asked to scoop for no reason is bullshit, and wouldn't do it except for maybe a friend. I just disagree in a situation that Nightmare depicted where someone has the win on board. Maybe I'm not competitive enough, who knows...

[Zamussels]

Brad Nelson's opening line to my friend went along the lines of "If I win, I make Day 2. If you win, neither of us make Day 2. Do you want to scoop?"

You mean his opening line instead of 'Hi I'm Brad, gl hf?' Or after the game?

[Explosion]

Or he was just playing the game how it is intended. To play to the best of one's ability and to be truthful about outcomes.

Don't get me wrong, I'm somewhat agnostic about the notion of a "deserved scoop." I meant only that someone's stupid or stubborn if they believe they have a chance at Day 2.

I also think Day 2 and Top 8 are 2 different situations, and I'd be a lot more willing to scoop someone into Day 2 than Top 8. A scoop into Top 8 knocks out someone else. A scoop into Day 2 just broadens the pool.

[TheDarkshineKnight]

I'm just going to throw my two cents in here.

Under no circumstances aside from absolute necessity should a player scoop in a competitive environment. This is regardless of the player's current standing and/or whether said player is a friend. You are playing in a competition. If you have scooped to an opponent then you have violated the very spirit of the competition: letting a competitor who has not proved himself to be worthy of advancement to proceed further in said competition. If a player's advancement requires him or her to win a match, then he must do so if the integrity of the competition is to be intact. To do anything except play the match out is unethical and harmful to the very nature of competition.

[Klazam]

In the recent SCG standard open in Baltimore, Edgar Flores sat across from me with a pimped out caw blade deck, in the fourth round. We both were 3-1 (Me, played all matches, hm 3 byes and 1 loss). I was playing a homebrew deck (that took me to a 7-3 record and 36th place). We play three really close games, ending up 2-1 in my favor. No mana screw or bad beats was involved on either of our parts, whatsover. I feel elated at beating a pro for the first time, with a homebrew. I grab the match slip, and Edgar then asks me if i'm willing to concede. WAIT WHAT? I tell him no. He asks me my rating. I tell him. He sighs. I tell him that i came to play, and he replies "I came for the rating, so I can qualify for the Pro Tour".

I'm sorry, but this makes me lose respect for him. If he wanted to get his rating higher, he should have beat me in the first place. What was he trying to do, asking me to concede after i won fairly? I think the fact that he had 3 byes made it worse...

[Nightmare]

In the recent SCG standard open in Baltimore, Edgar Flores sat across from me with a pimped out caw blade deck, in the fourth round. We both were 3-1 (Me, played all matches, hm 3 byes and 1 loss). I was playing a homebrew deck (that took me to a 7-3 record and 36th place). We play three really close games, ending up 2-1 in my favor. No mana screw or bad beats was involved on either of our parts, whatsover. I feel elated at beating a pro for the first time, with a homebrew. I grab the match slip, and Edgar then asks me if i'm willing to concede. WAIT WHAT? I tell him no. He asks me my rating. I tell him. He sighs. I tell him that i came to play, and he replies "I came for the rating, so I can qualify for the Pro Tour".

I'm sorry, but this makes me lose respect for him. If he wanted to get his rating higher, he should have beat me in the first place. What was he trying to do, asking me to concede after i won fairly? I think the fact that he had 3 byes made it worse...

No one gets byes at SCG Opens anymore.

[MDB]

I understand conceding when you're losing, either to start quickly with match 2/3 or when you would've clearly lost, if not for time, which is quite honorable actually.

However, in what universe does 'friendship' or 'pre-match standings' have anything to do with deserving to win a match? What about the guy that didn't get into the top 8 because you conceded, when it WAS a draw? If you concede, you might be helping the guy accross the table, but you're also screwing someone else over, that's an inevitable consequence of competitive play. Which is why scooping for other reasons than being in a losing (board) position has no place in competitive play, period.

I'm disgusted by the practice for ethical / fairness reasons, and still surprised it's not a reason for disqualification. The blatantness of the practice is outright appalling.

There is nothing honorable in helping a friend by screwing a stranger. You wanna help your friend, that's fine by me. But at least shuffle up them cards, play like a tool, and feel guilty about it.

[RogueMTG]

...
There is nothing honorable in helping a friend by screwing a stranger. You wanna help your friend, that's fine by me. But at least shuffle up them cards, play like a tool, and feel guilty about it.

What is the point of this? You would have someone intentionality throw a game rather than just concede and be done with it? How is that any better? It's the same result but a waste of time.

[Richard Cheese]

In the recent SCG standard open in Baltimore, Edgar Flores sat across from me with a pimped out caw blade deck, in the fourth round. We both were 3-1 (Me, played all matches, hm 3 byes and 1 loss). I was playing a homebrew deck (that took me to a 7-3 record and 36th place). We play three really close games, ending up 2-1 in my favor. No mana screw or bad beats was involved on either of our parts, whatsover. I feel elated at beating a pro for the first time, with a homebrew. I grab the match slip, and Edgar then asks me if i'm willing to concede. WAIT WHAT? I tell him no. He asks me my rating. I tell him. He sighs. I tell him that i came to play, and he replies "I came for the rating, so I can qualify for the Pro Tour".

I'm sorry, but this makes me lose respect for him. If he wanted to get his rating higher, he should have beat me in the first place. What was he trying to do, asking me to concede after i won fairly? I think the fact that he had 3 byes made it worse...

Byes issue aside, that is just completely fucking ridiculous. Props to you for winning and not backing down.

[Jim Higginbottom]

By no means did I attempt to use my "celebrity," if that even exists, to try and "buy a win." I just wondered why he didn't see the situation the same way I did. Reading this thread, I'm apparently in the minority. So be it.

You may be in the minority of the community as a whole but most better players see the situation the same way you do.

[Zamussels]

I'm sorry, but this makes me lose respect for him. If he wanted to get his rating higher, he should have beat me in the first place. What was he trying to do, asking me to concede after i won fairly? I think the fact that he had 3 byes made it worse...

If Edgar Flores is trying to qualify for the PT with rating from SCG opens... sorry but he's doing it wrong. And that guy seems to be getting quite a negative reputation lately, no one I speak to ever has something good to say about him.

[GGoober]

In the recent SCG standard open in Baltimore, Edgar Flores sat across from me with a pimped out caw blade deck, in the fourth round. We both were 3-1 (Me, played all matches, hm 3 byes and 1 loss). I was playing a homebrew deck (that took me to a 7-3 record and 36th place). We play three really close games, ending up 2-1 in my favor. No mana screw or bad beats was involved on either of our parts, whatsover. I feel elated at beating a pro for the first time, with a homebrew. I grab the match slip, and Edgar then asks me if i'm willing to concede. WAIT WHAT? I tell him no. He asks me my rating. I tell him. He sighs. I tell him that i came to play, and he replies "I came for the rating, so I can qualify for the Pro Tour".

I'm sorry, but this makes me lose respect for him. If he wanted to get his rating higher, he should have beat me in the first place. What was he trying to do, asking me to concede after i won fairly? I think the fact that he had 3 byes made it worse...

GJ, and keep up the good work with your decks. Play the game, love the game. I understand the importance of ratings and byes, but to ask for concession after results of a game is almost very much like 'bribery'. There's no bribery, but the essence is that he wanted the outcome of the result to be the outcome after the game has been determined.

I don't follow Edgar Flores or much of the pros, but this story, whether true or false, is most definitely giving me a very negative impression on this guy. And FFS, he's playing Cawblade, unargubly the best deck in the format.

Also the line "I came here to play MTG" is always going to fucking beat "I came here for ratings". You cannot argue and support someone who plays for rating v.s. someone who is playing the game because they enjoy it and have fun. The fact that he even followed up with "I came here for ratings" makes him look even bad considering that you already said something that cannot be trumped ("I came here to play MTG").

[Rico Suave]

Play the game as dictated by the official rules, or don't play at all. Players should not and cannot adjust the rules of the game or the system in which the game is played to suit their own expectations without degrading the game itself.

[Arsenal]

No one gets byes at SCG Opens anymore.

Where are you getting this incorrect information from?

[TooCloseToTheSun]

Where are you getting this incorrect information from?

I was at the SCG open in Indy where they announced this change. No one gets buys at opens.

[Arsenal]

I apologize. I forgot that the bye change was instituted with SCG Denver. For some reason, I thought that the bye change was going to take effect later in the season.