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Thread: [DTB] Blade Control

  1. #21
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    Re: [DTB] Blade Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    Shackles is still better against Merfolk, so I guess the choice of removal may depend on the predicted metagame. There are pros and cons for both.
    That is true, however, as I stated before, as of right now, this deck beats Merfolk. I can't actually fathom what you guys are doing to lose this match up.
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  2. #22
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    Re: [DTB] Blade Control

    Reasons why this deck has problems vs. Merfolk:
    -They are typically running at least 3 Dismember in the main. Having a 5CMC spell stranded in your hand feels dumb when you get beat down by a bunch of 'folk.
    -Standstill is bad against Vial-based aggro decks, and they run wasteland/manlands too. I suppose some lists are running Ancestral Visions in place of Standstill, but that card always seems incredibly clunky (and is too slow against an aggro deck anyways)
    -Vendilion Clique can't fight through a paper bag. Mishra's Factory gets outclassed as a blocker quickly.
    -Jace isn't that great against merfolk.
    -Even with the basics, the mana base is somewhat fragile.
    -Lord of Atlantis enables them to race you, even with an on-board Batterskull.

    I'm not going to say it's favored one way or the other, but it's hardly a walk in the park.

    That said, I think this matchup can be mitigated with a proper sideboard and/or a red splash. Due to the fact that Merfolk is a good deck, relatively cheap to build, and can account for upwards of 25% of the legacy meta, I would not build any deck these days for a large event without taking merfolk into account with card choices.

  3. #23
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    Re: [DTB] Blade Control

    Quote Originally Posted by lorddotm View Post
    That is true, however, as I stated before, as of right now, this deck beats Merfolk. I can't actually fathom what you guys are doing to lose this match up.
    Perhaps your playtest opponents are doing it wrong. Ever considered it?

  4. #24
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    Re: [DTB] Blade Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinefol View Post
    Perhaps your playtest opponents are doing it wrong. Ever considered it?
    Pretty sure Stoneforge into Batterskull beats Merfolk alone( I did not test with Dismember main). It's like Tinkering a Sphinx into play.

    If Merfolk loses the roll they have to Misstep your Misstep on Vial as daze is now blanked. Merfolk needs a creature heavy hand, other wise a hand with counters and lands plays into Blade's strategy of buying time until Bob draws infi removal and the Mystic. Wastelands usually end up trading Mutas for Mishras. I find it to not be an easy match up if the Blade player knows what he is doing. Stp and Snare help buy additional time.

    The matchup isn't a blowout for Blade and there are times when Mystic doesn't get drawn or doesn't resolve. Gery T has an article on it here;

    http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/l...sion_Deck.html
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    Re: [DTB] Blade Control

    Quote Originally Posted by menace13 View Post
    ( I did not test with Dismember main)
    This is definitely part of the reason you are blowing them out so easily. I'm not saying a 3-of removal is enough to sway a matchup entirely, but its presence has certainly changed the dynamics of the Merfolk vs. [whatever deck] matchup. With dismember, they can strand the Batterskull in your hand, or kill it after it's come down, granting them the window they need to win. I'm pretty sure Dismember has been pretty much universally adopted in the main deck of every merfolk player these days.

  6. #26
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    Re: [DTB] Blade Control

    I've been testing against competent people, trust me. They played Dismember main.

    The reason you can beat Merfolk is because you can easily get ahead on them in cards and swamp them in CA. I honestly haven't had an issue with them, and post board they have almost nothing and you just get better answers.
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  7. #27

    Re: [DTB] Blade Control

    Hey guys, I spent the last few hours writing a primer for this deck, hopefully to center discussion on actual U/W Stoneblade rather than talking about countertop and shackles. It's mostly formatted like Kuma's NO-RUG primer since that happened to be the first thread I clicked when looking for inspiration. Feel free to PM me with comments, criticisms or contributions on finished/ unfinished sections and I'll be happy to add them.

    Moved to the OP - excellent work! ~Nihil Credo
    Last edited by Nihil Credo; 07-14-2011 at 03:30 AM.
    Great success!

  8. #28
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    Re: [DTB] Blade Control

    UW Stone-Blade

    Table of Contents
    1) Introduction
    2) Constructing the Deck
    -Core Decklist
    -Remaining Options
    -Sideboard Options
    -Sample Decklist
    3) Playing the Deck
    4) Matchup Analysis
    5) Accomplishments
    6) Credits


    Introduction
    The Standard deck Caw-Blade was played heavily during the days Jace, the Mind Sculptor and Stoneforge Mystic were legal. Squadron Hawk combined with Jace provided an awesome boost in card-advantage and Stoneforge Mystic provided game-winning equipment and even living weapons.
    The Caw-Blade deck has been introduced in Legacy and in testing some players came to the conclusion Squadron Hawk wasn’t meant for legacy, but the combination Stoneforge Mystic + Batterskull proved to be sick.

    Since the printing of Mental Misstep Landstill, a deck played since the beginning of our beloved format, has gained in popularity. This is also the reason this deck has top 8’ed multiple times the past weeks. The Stoneforge Mystic + Batterskull combination has recently been toyed with in control decks and resulted in some new deck-types.
    - Patriot (UWR Agro-Control)
    - UWB Mystic-Blossom (UWB Agro-Control)
    - Caw Blade (UW Agro-Control, more agro than control)
    - UW(x) Stone-Blade (UW Agro-Control, more control than agro)
    To prevent confusion only the fourth decktype is to be discussed in this thread.

    The reason I call UW Stone-Blade an agro-control deck is because it’s affected by creature-removal, which blue control (usually) isn’t. However, the deck can be perceived in two ways:
    - Landstill with a creature-based kill-condition.
    - UW tempo/agro with an addition of more control-ish cards.
    This will result in different strategies and cardselection. Play what suits you the most, but try to be open-minded towards players with different views.

    Constructing the Deck
    As a Landstill deck it relies on the Standstill + Manlands combination, which has been a great combination for many years. However playing Standstill requires a stable board position to work. The main problem Standstill-players faced were early drops that gave the opponent a dominant board position. They had to deal with the threat first before laying down a Stanstill.
    Force of Will and Swords to Plowshares helped to pull this off but often enough this wasn’t the case, for agro-decks became much faster. The release of Mental Misstep gave Landstill-players another answer to early-game threats.
    Next to kill-conditions and the standstill/manlands combination perfect utility, removal and denial is essential.

    Utility
    4 Brainstorm

    Denial
    3/4 Force of Will
    3/4 Mental Misstep

    Removal
    4 Swords to Plowshares

    These are the most efficient spells in blue and white. Brainstorm is the glue of the deck as it is in most blue agro-control decks. It’s necessary for cardquality, fixing mana and digging for answers and kill-conditions.
    Mental Misstep has been discussed a lot lately. Some think it’s an automatic four-off, some think Landstill doesn’t need it.

    This deck is usually supported by approximately 23 lands. The manabase usually runs a lot of colorless resources as Mishra’s Factory and Wasteland. Consistency is important thus it is necessary to play a lot of lands.

    Core manabase:
    4 Mishra’s Factory
    4 Wasteland/ other manlands
    3/4 Tundra
    4 Flooded Strand
    2-4 Other blue-based fetchlands
    2/3 Island
    1 Plains

    It usually takes 8 manlands/Wastelands to make the Standstill-strategy work. Mishra’s Factory is the best manland for the deck at the time and wasteland deals with opposing manlands. Tundra and fetchlands are needed for consistency of the deck and basics can ensure you don’t get mana-screwed early game by wasteland. Next to that, the synergy with fetchlands and Brainstorm is always nice so having a large amount of fetches is preferred.

    Because the deck is control oriented it plays a lot of counterspells, usually between 11 and 13. Spell Snare, Counterspell and Daze are often contender for those slots.
    With all of that together, the core decklist looks something like this.


    Core Decklist
    Land
    4 Mishra’s Factory
    4 Wasteland/ other manlands
    3/4 Tundra
    4 Flooded Strand
    2-4 Other blue-based fetchlands
    2/3 Island
    1 Plains

    Utility
    4 Brainstorm
    3/4 Standstill

    Denial (11 – 13)
    3/4 Force of Will
    3/4 Mental Misstep
    3-7 Other counterspells

    Removal
    4 Swords to Plowshares

    Kill-conditions
    3/4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    3/4 Stoneforge Mystic
    1/2 Batterskull


    Remaining Options
    The remaining cards can go to a variety of cards for different matchups or personal play style. Here are a few options for the remaining slots.

    Sword of X and Y – Most of the time people choose to play one Sword of X and Y in favor of the second Batterskull. Usually it’s Sword of Body and Mind, Sword of Fire and Ice or Sword of Feast and Famine. In section 6 there is a link to a thread about Sword of X and Y choices.

    Vendilion Clique – It is never truly bad because it is a solid beater that can jump in the way of an attacker for the kill or fly over the stand-offs. Against combo, it is a great disruption piece and beater and against control, flashing it in at the end of their turn can leave the path open for Tarmogoyf or Survival.

    Crucible of Worlds – A very common choice to get a waste-lock online or to get card-advantage (i.e. playing land from your graveyard and brainstorm lands in your hand back in your deck).

    Ancestral Vision instead of Standstill – I won’t discuss this in the primer, for it is a matter of preference. You can discuss that in the thread.

    Ponder/Preordain – Most people are playing blue-based decks to get a grip on the cards in their hand. Deck manipulation gives an incredible feeling of advantage and some prefer more than just 4 Brainstorm.

    Repeal – Some think it’s amazing and others think it feels clunky for it usually has a high mana-cost or is a dead card. It is used to buy a turn by temporarily getting rid of a threat or to combine it with Standstill.

    Engineered Explosives – An out to a lot of pesky permanents. A splash of another color is needed though.


    Sideboard Options
    As there are a lot of options on this one, I will be addressing the sideboardcards top8-reached decklists of the past month ran.

    Manriki-Gusari – If there are a lot of equipment in your meta, this can be a fantastic card.

    Path to Exile – As a supplement to Swords to Plowshares to deal with agro like Zoo, Team America, Merfolk, Junk etc.

    Tormod’s Crypt / Relic of Progenitus / Surgical Extraction – Graveyard-hate for Ichorid, Tarmogoy, Knight of the Reliquary or other graveyard-based strategies.

    Pithing Needle – A versatile and cheap card that answers problems like Aether Vial, Thopter Foundry, Rishadan Port, Mutavault, Engineered Explosives, Mother of Runes, Elspeth, Knight-Errant, Knight of the Reliquary and many other things.

    Ethersworn Canonist – Combo win with it in play and they have to remove it before they can win.

    Llawan, Cephalid Empress – A perfect answer against Merfolk, watch out for Dismember though.

    Wrath of God – In a heavy agro-infested meta this card would be a decent choice. If Thrun, the Last Troll is a problematic card for you, this is a decent answer to it.

    Humility – Against big problematic creatures like Tarmogoyf, Knight of the Reliquary, Thrun, Tombstalker, Emrakul and Progenitus. This doesn’t work exceptionally well against Maverick and Goblins though.
    Spell Pierce – Extra counterspells for the mirror or combo

    Sower of Temptation – This one’s a bit risky. Almost all decks pack removal nowadays and those who don’t usually try to end the game in the first few turns or don’t have creatures.

    Meddling Mage – Fantastic against mid-range combodecks like Show&Tell, Hive Mind and the likes. This one’s also very versatile.

    Vendilion Clique – Great sideboard card for control or combo match-ups.

    Sample Decklist
    The first appearance of the deck was Grand Prix Providence (2011-05-29). Owen Turtenwald’s version is the most common played version at the time.

    U/W Stone-Blade
    by Owen Turtenwald

    Maindeck:

    Artifacts
    1 Batterskull
    1 Crucible Of Worlds
    1 Sword of Body and Mind

    Creatures
    4 Stoneforge Mystic

    Enchantments
    4 Standstill

    Instants
    4 Brainstorm
    3 Daze
    4 Force of Will
    4 Mental Misstep
    2 Spell Snare
    4 Swords to Plowshares

    Legendary Creatures
    1 Vendilion Clique

    Planeswalkers
    3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    Basic Lands
    3 Island
    1 Plains

    Lands
    4 Flooded Strand
    4 Mishra's Factory
    4 Polluted Delta
    4 Tundra
    4 Wasteland

    Sideboard:
    1 Batterskull
    1 Pithing Needle
    3 Relic of Progenitus
    3 Meddling Mage
    1 Oblivion Ring
    4 Path to Exile
    1 Vendilion Clique
    1 Wrath of God


    Matchups

    Zoo
    Pre-board: Zoo can get out to a very fast start so mitigating the life loss is very important until you can stick a Rhox War Monk or stabilize at all. The creatures you want to keep off the table are Grim Lavamancer, because it can take down every creature in the deck with exception of Tarmogoyf and RWM, and Knight of the Reliquary because it is bigger than everything. The matchup gets better for us as the turns go by, so lasting until the late game is key.

    -4 Force of Will
    -2 Vendilion Clique

    +3 Path to Exile
    +2 Umezawa’s Jitte
    +1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner

    Force of Will is a fast answer to cards like Steppe Lynx and Wild Nacatl, but the card disadvantage and life loss isn’t worth it, and going down on cards that early is likely to not win you the game. Sideboarding also takes too many blue cards out of the deck to effectively have Force + blue card. Vendilion Clique is lackluster because of how weak it is defensively and it costs three. Path to Exile comes in as a quick answer to their fast beaters and as a way to get rid of their larger guys later on. Umezawa’s Jitte is the card advantage you want against them, eliminating multiple threats, countering their burn, and pumping our dudes to sizes bigger than theirs. Kira turns off their removal or makes it straight card disadvantage.

    Post-board: The deck becomes packed with removal to slow them down. Jitte and Survival are too many targets for Grip as long as you can keep Qasali Pridemage from hitting one of them. Their clock becomes a lot slower when they sideboard hate in for Survival and with the deck having more cheap removal. It is a lot easier to setup, stick a few creatures, pick off their important ones, and take the advantage.

    Merfolk
    Pre-board: Merfolk beats you by hindering you enough so that it can drop Lord of Atlantis and have unblockable dudes. Fetching basics helps prevent this to negate their Wastelands. Most builds don’t run Stifle, but it is still wise to be careful of it and fetch at opportune times (i.e. when they are tapped out after Vial and end of their turn so that they have to leave mana open through their turn). Getting enough lands into play is not hard so play around Daze, which leaves them with only Force to counter all of your better cards. Swords, counter, or do whatever to keep Lord of Atlantis off the table. Doing all of this is hard when they have the disruption, the protection from Vial, and the card advantage from Standstill, but as long as you keep their weenies tiny they can’t do much.

    -4 Standstill

    +3 Path to Exile
    +1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress

    Accomplishments
    Grand Prix Providence, Owen Turtenwald, Top8
    Starcitygames Open Series: Indianapolis, Josn Guibault, Top8
    Starcitygames Open Series: Denver, AJ Sacher, Top8
    Starcitygames Open Series: Baltimore, David Shiels, Top4
    Starcitygames Open Series: Baltimore, Ben Friedman, Top16

    (only GP’s and SCG Opens are noted here. Source: http://mtgdecks.net/decks/viewByArchetype/111/page:1 )


    Credits
    Mossivo1986 and Jak for their help on structure of the primer

    Edit: Ninja'd, but hope it helps

  9. #29
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    Re: [DTB] Blade Control

    IsThisACatInAHat- Thank you for posting the primer! It was nicely written and gives people a lot to think about before posting here.
    For what it's worth, I've been toying with an Esper version of this deck as well. I feel like a third color gives you a lot of versatility in games 2 and 3, as well as some answers that you may not have running just two colors...mainly EE for 3. Here's the list I'm running:

    4x Stoneforge Mystic

    4x Standstill
    4x Bitterblossom

    4x Force of Will
    4x Mental Misstep
    3x Spell Snare
    4x Swords to Plowshares
    4x Brainstorm

    1x Sensei's Divining Top
    2x Batterskull

    1x Elspeth, Knight Errant
    3x Jace, the Mindsculptor

    3x Flooded Strand
    1x Marsh Flats
    3x Polluted Delta
    3x Tundra
    2x Underground Sea
    3x Wasteland
    4x Mishra's Factory
    1x Creeping Tar Pit
    1x Island
    1x Plains


    Sideboard:
    2x Engineered Explosives
    2x Tormod's Crypt
    2x Vindicate
    1x Sword of Fire & Ice
    1x Sword of Feast & Famine
    1x Threads of Disloyalty
    1x Vendilion Clique
    2x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
    3x Misdirection


    A few things about my list:
    I know the manabase needs some work. While it is functional at this point, it needs some more basics. I have a hard time cutting the miser's Creeping Tar Pit, which is usually everyone's first choice to cut. The games where it comes down it has been worth it's weight in gold. Under a Standstill, it has won me several games almost completely by itself.
    I understand that my manabase is fragile, and trust me, I am working on it.

    Maindeck Bitterblossom was the one thing I wanted to add to this build. It seems like this is the perfect home for a card like Bitterblossom, and so far it has been doing very well. The problem it presents is that, with BB, every business spell in this deck cost 2. My curve is so congested at that spot, it makes games awkward at times.

    Elspeth is the real deal. I always thought she was WAY too slow and clunky, but in a Standstill deck post Mental Misstep, she is everything you need your 4-drop to be and more. I have seriously debated running a 2/2 split with her and Jace, but without Bobs, I feel like I need an extra Jace.

    The sideboard is pieced together at this point, but I have seen a lot of potential in Misdirection. The card is getting a lot of buzz lately because it can swing a game your way if you hit a Hymn to Tourach or some other discard spell. What I've found is that it can be crushing at every stage of the game, and often times, it leads to a scoop if you hit your opponent's key spell. I'm not sure if three is the right number, but you definitely want at least one in your opening 7 if you're boarding them in.


    Some notable cards missing:
    Dark Confidant: I'm still trying to put him in the sideboard. He belongs in here, and he can outpace just about anything if left unchecked. Maindeck, he's another 2-drop, so I'd have to cut Bitterblossoms for Bobs. I'm not saying I won't, but I'm not sure which works better in this type of Standstill list.

    Perish: A sideboard superstar that lost out to Vindicate. Again, this may change, but for now I'm sticking with Vindicate as a catch-all alongside EE.

    Daze: I feel like Daze doesn't have a home here as long as I'm running a full set of Mental Misstep. Daze was in my first few builds of this deck, but it always felt a little too clunky and narrow. I am starting to think about cutting my Mental Missteps down by one, but I still don't think Daze will make it back in.

    Crucible of Worlds: Being a little light on land, I understand the value of Crucible in a format filled with Wastelands. I feel like this card has a ton of value, but soaks up too much time. I may be wrong, but I've been okay without it in this list so far. It may end up going back in as a singleton if the Wastelands get too ridiculous though.



    Some Cards That Are Still In Contention:
    Echoing Truth: I can't speak enough about how many times that card has saved my ass, and I feel like it will find a few sideboard slots in here eventually. It's just too good against the aggro decks that try to boat race your Standstills.

    Ethersworn Canonist: This card is a sexy pick in a lot of U/W Standstill sideboards, and for good reason. Sometimes making your opponent jump through hoops is the best way to cut them right out of the game. This may find its way back into my list soon.
    Currently Playing: BANT Aggro variant

  10. #30
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    Re: [DTB] Blade Control

    Wow - 2 primers in 1 thread?

    I think Isthisacatinthehat hit the nail on the head with this one. That having been said, the intro could be flushed out a bit, but I'm just nickpicking. Tom T just so happened to solve that issue, however. Maybe they can be merged?

    Kuddos to both of you, but I think Dr Seuss' legacy avatar beat him to the punch - it's more detailed, and well thought out.
    Only posts when drunk.

  11. #31
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    Re: [DTB] Blade Control

    Yes, TooManyDamnCapsInHisName's primer was much more informative so I went with that. But all contributions are appreciated nevertheless :)
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  12. #32
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    Re: [DTB] Blade Control

    I disagree with Dr. Seuss' assessment of Jace before and after Mental Misstep seeing print, but its a moot point as far as Blade Control itself is concerned. I also disagree that control was a dead archetype before Mental Misstep; hype and popularity contribute as much to deck performance as a deck being really good.
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    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  13. #33

    Re: [DTB] Blade Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    I disagree with Dr. Seuss' assessment of Jace before and after Mental Misstep seeing print, but its a moot point as far as Blade Control itself is concerned. I also disagree that control was a dead archetype before Mental Misstep; hype and popularity contribute as much to deck performance as a deck being really good.
    The primer is a work-in-progress. I didn't really intend to write it, but for fear of having to write a business plan that I actually did have to do, I just started and didn't stop until I was mostly finished. If you're willing to voice your proposed solutions to parts you disagree with (and this goes for anyone else), I will do what I can when I revise to include feedback. Since I've apparently taken it upon myself to write such a huge document, I do earnestly appreciate comments, criticisms, etc. but even more than any of that, value solutions. Even if I personally disagree, I will endeavor to paint as unbiased a picture as possible so the primer is not just representative of my personal views.
    Great success!

  14. #34
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    Re: [DTB] Blade Control

    The primer is a work-in-progress. I didn't really intend to write it, but for fear of having to write a business plan that I actually did have to do, I just started and didn't stop until I was mostly finished. If you're willing to voice your proposed solutions to parts you disagree with (and this goes for anyone else), I will do what I can when I revise to include feedback. Since I've apparently taken it upon myself to write such a huge document, I do earnestly appreciate comments, criticisms, etc. but even more than any of that, value solutions. Even if I personally disagree, I will endeavor to paint as unbiased a picture as possible so the primer is not just representative of my personal views.
    I think your primer was good, it included what needed to be included in regards to Blade Control, for the most part. I've already outlined my biggest issues with the primer, i.e the history lesson regarding Jace TMS and Control decks in general is a little off. That doesn't affect the important components of the primer, though.

    There are a few other things that do stand out. When you discuss the shell, I don't think Wasteland nor Mishra's Factory are auto-includes. In fact, I'm of the belief that the deck needs neither. Even moreso, I don't think Wasteland belongs in the deck at all. This is a slow control deck that wants to consistently make land drops, and Wasteland does the opposite. 8 non-basics that do not tap for colored mana weaken the manabase far more than splashing for a third color. I also think that a color splash is easily do-able, and there are many benefits to doing so. Personally, I prefer to stay straight U/W for the rock solid manabase, but there is definitely an allure to splashing a 3rd color.

    This deck is very customizable. As a U/W Control deck, there are tons of ways to build it. Some builds may want to go a with a more Speedstill approach with Spell Snare and Path to Exile, others may opt to go the CounterTop route, etc. I see no mention of CounterTop in your primer, but that's not a big deal, since the majority aren't going that route anyway.

    Overall though, great primer. My issues with it are small; nothing important enough to ask you to change anything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MMogg View Post
    In porn terms, Zoo has a 11" shlong and an impressive money shot, but it's over in 4 minutes, whereas Landstill is a good 8" and can go for 30 minutes.

  15. #35
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    Re: [DTB] Blade Control

    So, I picked up the deck and really like ti so far.

    The change I (and as I see) lots of other people have made is cutting the Dazes and playing some hardcounters (often Spell Snare) in their spots.

    Has anyone some data on weather Daze or Spell Snare/CS are better and how they play out with Standstill and AV? Generally I like the Snares, but being able to tap down for Stoneforge on turn 2 and still having counter-backup seems nice as well. Help appreciated =)
    Quote Originally Posted by pi4meterftw View Post
    Well you can expect whatever you want but you'd only expect what you said if you were retarded.

  16. #36

    Re: [DTB] Blade Control

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni View Post
    I think your primer was good, it included what needed to be included in regards to Blade Control, for the most part. I've already outlined my biggest issues with the primer, i.e the history lesson regarding Jace TMS and Control decks in general is a little off. That doesn't affect the important components of the primer, though.

    There are a few other things that do stand out. When you discuss the shell, I don't think Wasteland nor Mishra's Factory are auto-includes. In fact, I'm of the belief that the deck needs neither. Even moreso, I don't think Wasteland belongs in the deck at all. This is a slow control deck that wants to consistently make land drops, and Wasteland does the opposite. 8 non-basics that do not tap for colored mana weaken the manabase far more than splashing for a third color. I also think that a color splash is easily do-able, and there are many benefits to doing so. Personally, I prefer to stay straight U/W for the rock solid manabase, but there is definitely an allure to splashing a 3rd color.

    This deck is very customizable. As a U/W Control deck, there are tons of ways to build it. Some builds may want to go a with a more Speedstill approach with Spell Snare and Path to Exile, others may opt to go the CounterTop route, etc. I see no mention of CounterTop in your primer, but that's not a big deal, since the majority aren't going that route anyway.

    Overall though, great primer. My issues with it are small; nothing important enough to ask you to change anything.
    Pretty sure he included wasteland/mishra's factory in the uw 'shell' due to the number of uw stoneblade lists placing in SCG tournaments etc that were all running some sort of combination of wasteland and/or mishra's factories. Who's to argue with results?

  17. #37
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    Re: [DTB] Blade Control

    Hanni- I doubt there is anyone on this forum that I respect more when it comes to deck design than you. With that said, I have to disagree with your stance on Wasteland/Mishra's Factory...at least to a certain degree.

    Wasteland is a crucial part of the early game in almost every single matchup. If you're playing a deck that has a critical turn of 3 or 4, Wasteland almost always gives you the ability to camp your counterspells for that turn or keep them off their mana long enough for your permanent-based control elements (Standstill/Stoneforge) to lock them down. I feel like taking Wasteland out, while giving you space to sure up your manabase, would definitely hurt the deck's potency in the early turns.

    Mishra's Factory is a little less manditory IMO, but it's still a staple in this deck. I can see dropping one for an in-color land, but I still feel like you should have some of these maindecked. They get around mass-removal, they operate under Standstill, and they can carry a Batterskull in the absolute worst-case scenario. If nothing else, Factories put your opponent on a clock once you've plopped a Standstill, even if it's really early in the game.

    Take it for what you will, as I haven't played this thing at a large event. As I said before, I always look to Hanni for sage advice when it comes to building decks like this. I just happen to disagree with you in this instance.
    Currently Playing: BANT Aggro variant

  18. #38

    Re: [DTB] Blade Control

    Quote Originally Posted by swarm187 View Post
    IsThisACatInAHat- Thank you for posting the primer! It was nicely written and gives people a lot to think about before posting here.
    For what it's worth, I've been toying with an Esper version of this deck as well. I feel like a third color gives you a lot of versatility in games 2 and 3, as well as some answers that you may not have running just two colors...mainly EE for 3. Here's the list I'm running:
    To be honest, I really don't like either of the splashes (though I tried to leave that out of the primer, I think it's pretty evident). There's only one really good argument I've heard in favor of it and that's "more colors= more options." In a format about options and information (credit to Scordata for that one), more colors will supposedly open more doors for the deck to develop. Usually hand-in-hand with this is the rhetoric that color splashing comes at little to no cost in eternal formats.

    The problem I really have with either of these statements is that often, there are perfectly acceptable, sometimes even better cards in colors you're already playing. As well, the cost of splashing is very real when you consider that Wasteland exists, it can be played in any deck and it's often the 2nd or 3rd most commonly occuring card in top 8/16s, behind Force of Will and interchangeably ahead of/behind Brainstorm. Splashing also reduces the number of basics you can play (again Wasteland, but also Blood Moon, Back to Basics, Price of Progress, etc.) and just as importantly, the number of utility lands you can play. Wasteland is just a really, really fucking good card. I love that card when I have it, hate that card when my opponents have it. Playing a manabase that can support it is just awesome against every deck. Even monocolor decks run nonbasics.

    As for options, what do you really gain by adding black or red? To be fair, black is more defensible than red because the red splash runs Grim Lavamancer (meh), Red Blasts (meh) and Magus of the Moon (wtf?). With black, you have Dark Confidant, Bitterblossom, Perish and EE. But...

    Is Confidant really better than Vision or Standstill? You've got few enough targets already for their removal, why take out a difficult-to-answer spell for a delicate 1-toughness creature? Don't get me wrong; I love bob. He's the best creature ever printed and my second favorite. But a whole color for him? When you could just have Vision?

    Bitterblossom is a card that sounds good, seems good and in lower-powered formats, is good. Spellstutter Sprite was always awesome because it's a 2-for-1. Except in Legacy, when the second half of your "2" is a 1/1, you realize it's really closer to a 1-for-1 with a restrictive condition attached. The same goes for Bitterblossom, except you don't even get Jitte or something cheap to equip to make it worth the trouble and Batterskull comes with its own guy. Sure it blocks goyf/ knight all day, but then you're literally running Forcefield. Forcefield.

    Perish is fine, but you do also have access to Wrath. The lesser cost is significant, but Zoo and Maverick (the matchups where it's good) run a handful of creatures that are unaffected and it's completely dead against Merfolk and Goblins (where you might want it). And still, Wrath.

    Lastly, EE. I'm not sure I understand the continued fascination with this card. I wish I could find Alix Hatfield's quote about it when it first came out. Something along the lines of, "this is the most overpriced piece of crap removal that Legacy players have ever jizzed themselves over." Its defenders cite versatility, but when you don't need to sidestep Counterbalance anymore, why not just play any of the billion spells that are infinitely better? I'd honestly rather have Repeal than this, but I'm personally choosing to max out StP/Path instead (Dismember without splashing is also fine).

    Quote Originally Posted by Hanni
    There are a few other things that do stand out. When you discuss the shell, I don't think Wasteland nor Mishra's Factory are auto-includes. In fact, I'm of the belief that the deck needs neither. Even moreso, I don't think Wasteland belongs in the deck at all. This is a slow control deck that wants to consistently make land drops, and Wasteland does the opposite.
    Let's be fair; Wasteland is not a spell, it's a land. It produces mana. It just so happens that you have the option to screw them off of a color or utility land if the opportunity provides itself (as it usually does). This misconception that Wasteland needs to be used for its land destruction ability the second it comes down really doesn't make sense. For a mana-intensive deck, you are perfectly justified paying costs of spells with Wasteland's mana.

    Having the option to use extra land to disrupt your opponent when you're done using it for mana is an excellent aside, though. Think about it this way: let's say every nonland card in your deck could be played as a colorless source. How insane would that be? Mana when you need it, spell when you don't. That is literally what Factory and Wasteland are. Sure you still need some colored sources, but lands that become spells interchangeably when you need them to are really quite awesome.
    Great success!

  19. #39

    Re: [DTB] Blade Control

    What are bad matchups of this deck?
    Things that go fast I suppose? Zoo, gobblins, affinity ?

    Let me know ty :)

  20. #40

    Re: [DTB] Blade Control

    What are bad matchups of this deck?
    Things that go fast I suppose? Zoo, gobblins, affinity ?

    Let me know ty :)

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