[Deck] Manaless Ichorid

[Michael Keller]

I appreciate everyone's facilitating of the discussion. All of you contribute in a big way and I honestly wouldn't have come up and refined the list I play if it weren't for a good portion of all of your input.

I also have every right to defend my work and opinion openly after having worked as hard as I have trying to evolve the archetype as much as I (think) I have. No one deserves to be berated or belittled, nor should I or anyone else tolerate that type of classless behavior. This is a plague that never seems to desist and occasionally rears itself every so often.

Simply put: thank you to everyone who has helped try and get the deck to the point it's at today. Just because someone perfects and plays a deck doesn't make it "theirs" by default. However, common courtesy should be respected and shown to your peers. Interests and ideals will inevitably conflict - but that shouldn't enable poor behavior by some folks who enjoy perpetrating it.

I've got a fun new list I've been working on that I'll be sure to post soon.

[Vandalize]

I've got a fun new list I've been working on that I'll be sure to post soon.

Tell me it does include Tortured Existence and Street Wraith!

[civet five]

Tell me it does include Tortured Existence and Street Wraith!

I haven't tried TE in Dredge, but I have in a B/G Vengevine-Loltroll-BaskingRootwalla lolz combo, and it was total boss if you could activate it. The biggest reason that would scare me away from trying TE is that you would probably have to give up Dryad Arbor and cram in Dakmor Salvage; otherwise how do you find BB reliably?

[slave]

I haven't tried TE in Dredge, but I have in a B/G Vengevine-Loltroll-BaskingRootwalla lolz combo, and it was total boss if you could activate it. The biggest reason that would scare me away from trying TE is that you would probably have to give up Dryad Arbor and cram in Dakmor Salvage; otherwise how do you find BB reliably?

Maybe trade the Arbor's for fetches and Bayou? I dunno..... Arbor is an automatic 4 slots, gonna be hard to take it out without screwing the deck a bit.

[sherko7]

Not sure if there is any way to do this but I think I've read somewhere that you can, at end of your opponent's turn with Phantasmagorian in GY, discard 3, hold priority, cycle Street Wraith and then after that discard another 3 (including the one you dredge'd). How the hell? :O

[slave]

Not sure if there is any way to do this but I think I've read somewhere that you can, at end of your opponent's turn with Phantasmagorian in GY, discard 3, hold priority, cycle Street Wraith and then after that discard another 3 (including the one you dredge'd). How the hell? :O

You can cycle Wraith anytime you can cast an instant, including when other things are on the stack.
You can also Discard 3 cards, multiple times, off the one Phants, same timing as Wraith.
Both cards can be used in your own end step on turn 1.

So yeah.... I think that's correct.
I'm no rules expert though, maybe kick a question over to the rules section - unless someone here can verify this?

[Countertoplol]

You can cycle Wraith anytime you can cast an instant, including when other things are on the stack.
You can also Discard 3 cards, multiple times, off the one Phants, same timing as Wraith.
Both cards can be used in your own end step on turn 1.

So yeah.... I think that's correct.
I'm no rules expert though, maybe kick a question over to the rules section - unless someone here can verify this?

It works just like he said it did. You activate the phant holding priority then respond by cycling the wraith. Then your opponent gets priority and can respond to it. After the cycling resolves and you dredge whatever you discarded, the phantasmagorian activation is still on the stack and you can activate it again.

[TerribleTim68]

It works just like he said it did. You activate the phant holding priority then respond by cycling the wraith. Then your opponent gets priority and can respond to it. After the cycling resolves and you dredge whatever you discarded, the phantasmagorian activation is still on the stack and you can activate it again.

Hmm, that's an interesting tidbit to know. Now all I need to know is -
Why has this thread (and the LED Dredge thread) been so dead lately? Is Deathrite Shaman that big a deal right now?

[Countertoplol]

Hmm, that's an interesting tidbit to know. Now all I need to know is -
Why has this thread (and the LED Dredge thread) been so dead lately? Is Deathrite Shaman that big a deal right now?

I think people just haven't had many ideas for the deck. Deathrite doesn't really seem to be a problem for either version of dredge. I've played a lot against turn 1 deathrites and I'm still able to crush game 1. Sometimes the deathrite decks don't even pack additional hate in the sideboard, which is pretty much an auto win for us.

[TerribleTim68]

Well, I shied away from it (even though it really is the deck I enjoy the most right now) because my meta was overrun with maindeck Rest In Peace, Scavenging Ooze and Deathrite Shaman plus a ton of sideboard hate. Basically, my meta isn't very "graveyard friendly" at all so I've gotte naway from anything that uses the graveyard at all. Which sucks because I miss this deck.

[sherko7]

It works just like he said it did. You activate the phant holding priority then respond by cycling the wraith. Then your opponent gets priority and can respond to it. After the cycling resolves and you dredge whatever you discarded, the phantasmagorian activation is still on the stack and you can activate it again.

OK so if I get it right:

Turn 1: I discard Phantasmagorian
Opponents end of turn: I activate Phantasmagorian, hold priority, cycle Street Wraith and pass priority to him. He chooses not to respond, so I Dredge, say GGT. After Dredging, Phantasmagorian's ability is still on the stack so I can activate it again (discarding the Dredge'd GGT earlier)?

[teonsw]

Well, I shied away from it (even though it really is the deck I enjoy the most right now) because my meta was overrun with maindeck Rest In Peace, Scavenging Ooze and Deathrite Shaman plus a ton of sideboard hate. Basically, my meta isn't very "graveyard friendly" at all so I've gotte naway from anything that uses the graveyard at all. Which sucks because I miss this deck.

This is the main reason i switched from manaless dredge. Do not get me wrong, this deck is awesome but playing in my local meta against nothing but hate made me want to switch it up a bit.

[TerribleTim68]

OK so if I get it right:

Turn 1: I discard Phantasmagorian
Opponents end of turn: I activate Phantasmagorian, hold priority, cycle Street Wraith and pass priority to him. He chooses not to respond, so I Dredge, say GGT. After Dredging, Phantasmagorian's ability is still on the stack so I can activate it again (discarding the Dredge'd GGT earlier)?

Yes sir, that is correct.

[slave]

I think people just haven't had many ideas for the deck.

Hasn't been anything from Gatecrash too exciting for manaless. Could be a big reason why peeps are getn into other decks.

[NecroYawgmoth]

Hasn't been anything from Gatecrash too exciting for manaless. Could be a big reason why peeps are getn into other decks.

Well... actually the same was true for RTR, M13, AVR, DA, INN, M12...
What do you expect from a deck that actually "casts" only spells that has alternate ways to cast.

The main reason is that it is worse against the new gravehate [RIP, DR-Shaman] then LED-Dredge, IMO.
Manaless was godly in the Mental-Misstep-Era and it also was very strong positioned when the most played gravehate were Crypts and Snappy & Surgical. We don't live in this times anymore, and people are looking for decks that aren't that much meta-dependant.


Oh, and btw:

I've got a fun new list I've been working on that I'll be sure to post soon.

How long do we need to wait? ;)

[teonsw]

Well... actually the same was true for RTR, M13, AVR, DA, INN, M12...
What do you expect from a deck that actually "casts" only spells that has alternate ways to cast.

The main reason is that it is worse against the new gravehate [RIP, DR-Shaman] then LED-Dredge, IMO.
Manaless was godly in the Mental-Misstep-Era and it also was very strong positioned when the most played gravehate were Crypts and Snappy & Surgical. We don't live in this times anymore, and people are looking for decks that aren't that much meta-dependant.


Oh, and btw:


How long do we need to wait? ;)

You are right, although AVR gave griselbrand the key win con. Dark ascension also gave flayer the true in your face win con. Rtr and gatecrash have given nothing alas. :(

[NecroYawgmoth]

Well, Griselbro can be replaced with Sphinx, and before Flayer we had stuff like FKZ/Elesh Norn/Iona maindeck, which are usually also GG most of the time.

But yeah, I have to admit that I forgot those DR-Targets. Still, I don't think we will get a better creature than Griselbrand in the near future.

[GerryT]

Hey y'all. The Legacy MOCS is coming up so I decided to buy Dredge online. Since I was only a few cards short of Manaless Dredge, I decided to try that as well and was pleasantly surprised.

I started with Hollywood's list, cut the Reverent Silence package from the board since very few people play Rest in Peace or Leyline of the Void online.

I decided to track my matches:

2-0 Jund Nic Fit/Scapeshift
2-0 Esper Stoneblade
0-2 Belcher
2-0 B/G Pox
1-2 Mono-Black Dark Depths
2-0 Aluren
0-2 TES (t2 both games)
2-1 Junk (t1 Deathrite each game)
2-1 Elves (t1 Deathrite each game)
0-2 ANT (t2 both games)
2-0 Elves
0-2 Elves
1-2 RUG (Surgical + Ooze)
1-2 Burn (t1 Relic g2/3)
1-2 MonoG Infect (no dredger in opener all 3 games)

At this point, I started discussing the deck with Mark Sun and Dan Musser. We decided that Chancellor of the Annex was something we wanted to try. Against Deathrite Shaman, you want Phantasmagorian or Street Wraith in your opener, but Chancellor was another thing that would help. Granted, we weren't losing to many Deathrite Shamans, despite several of them being cast, but Storm was the main thing we wanted help against.

2-0 Junk
2-0 Burn
1-2 Elves (I punted very badly)
2-0 Doomsday
0-2 Burn
2-0 Aluren
2-1 Esper Stoneblade
1-2 Elves (Deathrite, Teeg, Mortarpod)
2-0 Jund
1-2 Burn (t3 kill)
2-1 Reanimator (Shoaled his Elesh Norn!)
1-2 B/G Pox (Leyline g2/3)

Here I decided to buy Mindbreak Traps for 17 tickets each because I was losing to Storm and was more committed to the deck, so I didn't mind buying cards I would likely resell at a loss.

2-0 BUG
1-2 ANT (no Leyline, he Therapy-ed my Trap)
2-0 Junk
2-0 BUG
1-2 Elves (Deathrite, Zenith x2 for Deathrites, Thorn, Teeg)
1-2 UR Delver (t1 Relic g2/3)

Overall, I was 17-16 but a lot of that was Storm decks and a lot of it was while I was refining the deck.

This is my current list:

4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari-Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
3 Nether Shadow
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
2 Griselbrand
4 Chancellor of the Annex
3 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Sickening Shoal
4 Dryad Arbor
Sideboard
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Angel of Despair
2 Contagion
4 Gitaxian Probe

The Leylines were to help against Storm and Burn. Chalice of the Void is another option if I wanted to become more hateful. I wanted Gitaxian Probe or Call to the Netherworld to speed me up against combo but so far they've been lackluster. Additional hate like Chalice would be much better, even if it means I'm not dredging until turn three or whatever. I've also been considering maindecking the Mindbreak Traps over Sickening Shoal just to try and get an edge against Storm.

I've had 13 hands with no dredger, which has been incredibly disappointing every time it happens. I'm strongly considering the 4th Shambling Shell just to pad my percentages.

Dryad Arbor has been pretty awesome as an accelerator but unfortunately I've never had it whenever they've had Thorn of Amethyst, Thalia, etc. I know Dan is trying lists without it entirely.

I've cut back on the Dread Return package, which might be incorrect, but it's not necessary in most of the matchups. Regardless of whether you want a full DR package or not, I think it's safe to cut one Flayer and one Nether Shadow.

Chancellor of the Annex has been fantastic as a way to steal back initiative. It also makes a fine DR target.

Flayer solves most of the problems that Angel would, but I had the sideboard space and didn't want to run into something I couldn't deal with. That said, I will likely cut it, as those situations are few and far between.

I've had Leyline of the Void put into play against me twice, once by Mono-Black Dark Depths and once by B/G Pox. Obviously I can't beat it, but if I'm doing my job and staying in the winners' bracket, that shouldn't be an issue. Rest in Peace is a "real" card but I'm seeing more traditional Miracles and Stoneblade online.

Honestly, this deck doesn't lose to Deathrite Shaman (nor would normal Dredge if built correctly), so I don't see why people are putting Dredge down. It's the enchantments that are the issue, but those are rarely played except by the most hateful of people.

I like this deck, will continue to work on it, and it's currently my frontrunner for the MOCS.

[Final Fortune]

Hey y'all. The Legacy MOCS is coming up so I decided to buy Dredge online. Since I was only a few cards short of Manaless Dredge, I decided to try that as well and was pleasantly surprised.

I started with Hollywood's list, cut the Reverent Silence package from the board since very few people play Rest in Peace or Leyline of the Void online.

I decided to track my matches:

2-0 Jund Nic Fit/Scapeshift
2-0 Esper Stoneblade
0-2 Belcher
2-0 B/G Pox
1-2 Mono-Black Dark Depths
2-0 Aluren
0-2 TES (t2 both games)
2-1 Junk (t1 Deathrite each game)
2-1 Elves (t1 Deathrite each game)
0-2 ANT (t2 both games)
2-0 Elves
0-2 Elves
1-2 RUG (Surgical + Ooze)
1-2 Burn (t1 Relic g2/3)
1-2 MonoG Infect (no dredger in opener all 3 games)

At this point, I started discussing the deck with Mark Sun and Dan Musser. We decided that Chancellor of the Annex was something we wanted to try. Against Deathrite Shaman, you want Phantasmagorian or Street Wraith in your opener, but Chancellor was another thing that would help. Granted, we weren't losing to many Deathrite Shamans, despite several of them being cast, but Storm was the main thing we wanted help against.

2-0 Junk
2-0 Burn
1-2 Elves (I punted very badly)
2-0 Doomsday
0-2 Burn
2-0 Aluren
2-1 Esper Stoneblade
1-2 Elves (Deathrite, Teeg, Mortarpod)
2-0 Jund
1-2 Burn (t3 kill)
2-1 Reanimator (Shoaled his Elesh Norn!)
1-2 B/G Pox (Leyline g2/3)

Here I decided to buy Mindbreak Traps for 17 tickets each because I was losing to Storm and was more committed to the deck, so I didn't mind buying cards I would likely resell at a loss.

2-0 BUG
1-2 ANT (no Leyline, he Therapy-ed my Trap)
2-0 Junk
2-0 BUG
1-2 Elves (Deathrite, Zenith x2 for Deathrites, Thorn, Teeg)
1-2 UR Delver (t1 Relic g2/3)

Overall, I was 17-16 but a lot of that was Storm decks and a lot of it was while I was refining the deck.

This is my current list:

4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
4 Golgari-Grave Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
3 Shambling Shell
4 Phantasmagorian
4 Street Wraith
3 Nether Shadow
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
2 Griselbrand
4 Chancellor of the Annex
3 Dread Return
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge from Below
4 Sickening Shoal
4 Dryad Arbor
Sideboard
4 Mindbreak Trap
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Angel of Despair
2 Contagion
4 Gitaxian Probe

The Leylines were to help against Storm and Burn. Chalice of the Void is another option if I wanted to become more hateful. I wanted Gitaxian Probe or Call to the Netherworld to speed me up against combo but so far they've been lackluster. Additional hate like Chalice would be much better, even if it means I'm not dredging until turn three or whatever. I've also been considering maindecking the Mindbreak Traps over Sickening Shoal just to try and get an edge against Storm.

I've had 13 hands with no dredger, which has been incredibly disappointing every time it happens. I'm strongly considering the 4th Shambling Shell just to pad my percentages.

Dryad Arbor has been pretty awesome as an accelerator but unfortunately I've never had it whenever they've had Thorn of Amethyst, Thalia, etc. I know Dan is trying lists without it entirely.

I've cut back on the Dread Return package, which might be incorrect, but it's not necessary in most of the matchups. Regardless of whether you want a full DR package or not, I think it's safe to cut one Flayer and one Nether Shadow.

Chancellor of the Annex has been fantastic as a way to steal back initiative. It also makes a fine DR target.

Flayer solves most of the problems that Angel would, but I had the sideboard space and didn't want to run into something I couldn't deal with. That said, I will likely cut it, as those situations are few and far between.

I've had Leyline of the Void put into play against me twice, once by Mono-Black Dark Depths and once by B/G Pox. Obviously I can't beat it, but if I'm doing my job and staying in the winners' bracket, that shouldn't be an issue. Rest in Peace is a "real" card but I'm seeing more traditional Miracles and Stoneblade online.

Honestly, this deck doesn't lose to Deathrite Shaman (nor would normal Dredge if built correctly), so I don't see why people are putting Dredge down. It's the enchantments that are the issue, but those are rarely played except by the most hateful of people.

I like this deck, will continue to work on it, and it's currently my frontrunner for the MOCS.

If you're trying to play Mindbreak Trap in your MD then the card that you're really looking for is Unmask, it's fast enough to stop ANT from going off on turn 3 and TES only goes off on Turn 2 about 20% of the time - and it's obviously not dead vs every other deck in the format.

Otherwise, I completely agree with cutting the Reverent Silence package in exchange for more SB space, I'd rather have 7+ more cards for Combo than an answer to a linear SB card that no one is really playing post Deathrite Shaman. Furthermore, I'm not really impressed by Dryad Arbor if its not contributing to the Reverent Silence SB package because it does nothing without a Cabal Therapy or Dread Return in your graveyard compared to something like Chancellor of the Annex etc.

I go back on forth on Gitaxian Probe because I'm not certain whether or not it's better to have a card that speeds you up as opposed to a card that slows them down, but fwiw disruption seems to be better draw because "Dazing" the opponent on his first turn or Unamsking the opponent on your second turn prevents him from raping you before your Gitaxian Probe would give you any dividens (you have to wait until your third turn to activate Ichorid and Nethershadow in order to flashback Cabal Therapy etc.)

Chancellor of the Annex and Unmask MD over Sickening Shoal and Dryad Arbor I think is better rounded vs the format, because delaying the Deathrite Shaman until turn 2 lets you activate your first Dredge unmolested, at which point Deathrite Shaman is mediocre disruption instead of a hard lock, and Unmask is more reliable turn 2 disruption than Dryad Arbor + Cabal Therapy.

[SaintS]

I´m not a huge fan of Chancellor of the Annex nor am I of Dryad Arbor, but I think the second one is more usefull in my meta, so I´m sticking with it.
One thing that I really miss is Bloodghast and Dakmor Salvage which can be usefull from times to times.


now the only thing I would like to know is : where is your new list hollywood??!! ^^