[Deck] Green Urzatron (formerly 12-Post)

[Maveric78f]

I've been testing quite a lot too lately. I corroborate what Meow says about the difficulty of racing/disrupt combo. 1st, we do not play any disruption. 2nd, we are 1 turn slow compared to them (generally, we can win turn 5 or 6, versus 4 or 5 concerning combo). 3rd, they usually pack enough disruption to slow us down 1 or 2 turns (discard, pierce or remand). All this to say, that it's impossible MD. Post-SB, we do not have a lot of options, regarding the fact, we play mono-green... As a preamble, I think it's fair to say that this deck should not be played in a combo metagame.

However, it's really strong against control and aggro, and we do not want to be a bye against Combo.

Zeroth idea: zeroth, because it's not a SB idea. You should be playing 4*Summoning Trap MD. It can help to race, to supprise-kill, to mana-ramp into an Eldrazi. Moreover, it's an instant so that you can keep mana open for anti-enchantments during your opponent turn but still do something.

First idea: if you're playing Stirring, there is no reason for not playing Chalice*4. Chalice@0 has been surprisingly good so far, maybe even better than @1. It stops Affinity, Living Dead and Lotus Bloom-decks. Chalice@1 are good against Affinity, Omelet, Ascension, Cantrip-based combo decks and also mana-ramp combo decks. Marginally, you can play it @3 against Splinter Twin if you're fast enough. It happened to me once, but I guess it's rarely soon enough in play (also they can respond it by playing the flash creature and then you're fucked up). If you don't play Stirring, well, you should.

Second idea: a mix of Nature's Claim/Krosan Grip/Wickerbough Elder. Nature's Claim if you play Eternal Witness or expect a lot of Omelet and K Grip if you expect a lot of Splinter Twin. Wickerbought Elder*1, if you play GSZ. It can slow down a lot your opponent playing Enduring Ideal, Ascension, Omelet, Lotus Bloom, Splinter Twin.

Third idea: Lodestone Golem. Better than Trinisphere against everything that is not Omelet. It's a clock in addition of being a kill, it can be played off Trap and tutored with Eye, even if it's not the play of the year.

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Let's change subjet: the mana base. I see a lot of builds playing 25-28 lands + 4-8 land tutors (Sylvan Scrying and Expedition Map). How many games do play ending with lands in hand? Even Explore won't help you to empty your hand. As for myself, I chose to play the minimum: 25 lands, no tutor at all and 4 Explore. I play Stirring for finding my lands and if I don't find cloudposts, it's not really a problem, because I play 4*Overgrown Battlement + 4*GSZ. I also play 4*Titan to go really crazy when time has come.

I finally removed the Planeswalkers. I had no way of tutoring them. All is dust was also removed because I play too many green creatures:
25 lands:
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
11 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eye of Ugin

12 tutors:
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 GSZ
4 Summoning Trap

19 creatures:
4 Magus of the Candelabra
4 Overgrown Battlement
4 Primeval Titan
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Terastodon
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cantrips:
4 Explore

SB :
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Krosan Grip
2 Nature's Claim
1 Wickerbought Elder

[menace13]

I have been trying 23 lands and don't think it is correct to play that few despite 2 Reap and Sow, 4 Stirrings and 3 Maps. Taking a lot of mulls this way. Not impressed with Slyvan Scrying unless I need a Eye mid-late game, same with Map but it does the turn 1 play, turn 2 activate or turn 2 off of a Cloudpost on turn 1, Glimmerpost turn 2.

Beast Within is awesome. It does everything i want it to do against Splinter Twin, Mirror LD, Moons and almost every match up aside Zoo and at Instant speed<3. Oblivion Stone rounds out my removal and It is mostly one sided anyhow.

Acidic Slime may be better than Elder haven't tried either though. I think the comes Into play effect of Slime is better if only for hitting lands as well. Both require 5 mana total, but Elder can be tutored by GSZ for 1 less mana-still needs the 1 green mana to activate-. And I get your point of Elder being proactive waiting there to destroy Bloom, Ascension, Splinter Twin.

Rukcus suggested Plow Under for the sheer amount of mirrors online and I like the card. I think running a 2nd Eye and up to 4 Emrakul would give an edge in the mirror havent tried this yet. Would Grinning Totem be good or even Jester's Cap for mirrors?

[Maveric78f]

Terastodon is the best in the mirror. I have to try beast within. It looks very good indeed. Even more when you consider that I play 0/4 walls.

I don't like the tomtem or cap. It's good only if your opponent did not draw yet its kill condition.

I see Damping Matrix being also very good in quite a few MU (Omelet, Splinter Twin, Affinity). It cuts the Magus of the Candelabra in my build and Expedition Map in most builds but it can be game breaking.

[SpikeyMikey]

Beast Within is very good against combo. The only combo I really worry about is Splinter Twin; it's the most consistent and difficult to deal with. The white splash gives me Suppression Field out of board which stops at least 1/2 of the combo decks out there and Angel's Grace which generally stops the other half (Oh, you're Pacting? I'll Grace in my upkeep. You're copying a Lightning Bolt 6 times with Pyromancer? I'll Grace and buy myself a turn or two.) I'm still vulnerable to Dragonstorm, but I don't consider that to be a real deck; it's just suboptimal compared to Twin.

The way to interact with combo decks in the format is the same way you interact with the mirror; land destruction. Plow Under is a very passable idea. Twin needs 4 mana to go off. Hive Mind needs 6 (although it gets a lot of its mana from Rituals/Seething Song). Dragonstorm needs 9 (see the Hive Mind note). Persist needs 3 (and usually 4) to kill you. Basically, if you keep your opponent on 2-3 lands, they won't be able to combo out. So you Beast Within a land on turn 3, you give them a completely irrelevant 3/3 token (the game will be over before they can beat you 7 times with it for the win) and you buy yourself another turn.

[meow]

@spikeymikey if you splash white why don't get : Ethersworn Canonis


@Maveric78f : about control summoning trap can be a good answer the only control deck i really had big troubles with was a mono blue deck i saw in mvs that have been pretty anoying because he was altering bounces (Repeal) + counters (Disrupting Shoal as a fow in this format, remand, rewind, mana leak...) + usual cantrips (preordain...) . Cryptic Command have been devastating to bounce cloudposts opr threats i could throw but also draw... and he will finally later on kill playing emrakul with a blue spell i can't remember of now. (if someone can help me here to find the card, a blue card who costs 6 or more manas and he will search his library and put emrakul into play.

[Kuma]

I'm wondering if we wouldn't benefit from a white splash for Gaddock Teeg. Of course you can find Teeg with Green Sun's Zenith, but it couldn't hurt to add a few fetches and some Temple Gardens. Combo decks seem like absolutely abyssmal matchups, and Gaddock Teeg stops most of them. I think the anti-combo sideboard should be:

Chalice of the Void: Cascade decks like Living End and Restore Balance. Also seems pretty good against Zoo.

Beast Within: Splinter Twin, anything else permanent based.

Gaddock Teeg: Empty the Warrens, Hive Mind, Breach Hulk, Polymorph, Enduring Ideal, Mindlsaver, Gifts Ungiven, etc.

[Maveric78f]

Generally, I would not play a creature for stopping combo. Almost all combo decks play red and thus some kind of burn. Splashing white is difficult to hide and if they see it, they won't be surprised to see gaddock coming... I would go further: if I was to play gaddock in SB, I would certainly not splash W, in order to have the surprise effect (through GSZ) and see them side out all their burn spells.

I would not enter chalice against zoo. A lot of them still think that Qasali is good against us. In my build, the only artifact/enchantment I play is Wurmcoil Engine (I finally removed the sundering titan for a second Terastodon, because most of the time Terastodon is used to have 18 power on my side, or to remove a bridge or something like this).

Beast Within is good against combo and the mirror. I can be interesting against control, but my list is already good enough against control. I still have 2 K Grip in my SB but I will probably change them with Beast Within#3/4.

[Kuma]

Generally, I would not play a creature for stopping combo. Almost all combo decks play red and thus some kind of burn.

...Okay. What's your non-burnable answer that hits a similar number of combo decks as Gaddock Teeg? Points for you if it can be found with Green Sun's Zenith.

Splashing white is difficult to hide and if they see it, they won't be surprised to see gaddock coming...

The question isn't whether or not they see it coming, but whether or not they can do anything about it. For this to be a legitimate comlpaint, combo would have to see Gaddock Teeg coming, and based on that information be able to make a play that stops or gets around Gaddock Teeg without significantly affecting their clock/consistency. I don't think combo decks can do that. If they have to spend a Peer Through Depths to get an answer to Gaddock Teeg, he's likely bought you at least a turn or two.

I would go further: if I was to play gaddock in SB, I would certainly not splash W, in order to have the surprise effect (through GSZ) and see them side out all their burn spells.

I think it's more important to be able to cast a Gaddock Teeg without a Green Sun's Zenith than it is to "surprise" your opponent, especially if you're running multiple Teegs. I'm talking like four fetchlands and a Temple Garden; it's not going to kill the manabase.

Besides, what combo decks are running maindeck burn spells? I'd think they'd be sideboard cards at best.

I would not enter chalice against zoo. A lot of them still think that Qasali is good against us. In my build, the only artifact/enchantment I play is Wurmcoil Engine (I finally removed the sundering titan for a second Terastodon, because most of the time Terastodon is used to have 18 power on my side, or to remove a bridge or something like this).

So we shouldn't run a card that blanks like 2/3 of their deck because they run a four-of that can answer it for three mana? I've never seen anyone so afraid of Qasali Pridemage.

I haven't tested Chalice against Zoo, so I could be off-base here, but it looks fantastic on paper. It's not a big deal one way or the other because we already stomp Zoo, but I have to think it's worth siding in over Magus of the Candelabra, or something.

[Maveric78f]

Besides, what combo decks are running maindeck burn spells? I'd think they'd be sideboard cards at best.

The real question is : which combo deck is going to run burn against a white-splashed deck. Splinter Twin and Ascension for sure and they are the best combo decks. Omelet too.

Chalice against zoo is completely out of tempo. Ratchet Bomb is better IMO. Anyway, Zoo is a serious bye for this deck. I don't even know what we are talking about.

[Kuma]

The real question is : which combo deck is going to run burn against a white-splashed deck. Splinter Twin and Ascension for sure and they are the best combo decks.

Splinter Twin and Pyromancer's Ascension are the best combo decks based on what exactly?

Also, why would I board in Gaddock Teeg against either deck? The only card in either deck that Teeg hits is Splinter Twin. There's not nearly enough tournament data to tell what the best combo deck is. What we do know is that there are a lot of different combo lists being thrown around and pretty much all of them are bad matchups.

Current List:

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
5 Forest
2 Stomping Ground
1 Temple Garden
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
1 Eye of Ugin

4 Expedition Map
4 Sylvan Scrying
4 Ancient Stirrings

1 Magus of the Candelabra
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Primeval Titan
4 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Overgrown Battlement
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
2 Batterskull
1 Gaddock Teeg

Sideboard:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Beast Within
3 Gaddock Teeg
4 Firespout

[Maveric78f]

Your list is everything I find awful in a 12-post list. I have already explained what and why on this very thread.

Also 2*Emrakul is mandatory. Sometimes you just need a combo finish. And 2*Emrakul is infinite turns, no decking. It means that it's also infinite draw (and then tutor what you need (Ulamog for dealing with Ensnaring Bridge for instance), and infinite damage. All of this already happened to me.

[meow]

i'm playing a online tournament with this deck soon (starting the 29th) i'll give a feedback here with my decklist (which is close to Maveric's).

i also agree on 2* emrakul is a must have i have removed some days ago Kozilek, Butcher of Truth to add a second emrakul and i have been pretty happy with it.

To discuss the deck i feel we find a pretty stable deck now, but mby innistrad will get us a nice surprise for the deck !

[Maveric78f]

Which anti-graveyard, instant-removing, green creature do we have in modern?

I thought Scavenging Ooze was going to be there, but I learnt that it wasn't legal not long ago (I don't understand those strange editions).

[menace13]

3 Daily events so far on MTGO for Modern, a 80 man, 60 man and 50 man events leaves a lot of deck lists to look through. Green posts is already putting up good numbers with 7 placings in 3 events.

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital.../tourn/2739320

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital.../tourn/2739342

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Digital.../tourn/2739343

[Waikiki]

I've been testing quite a lot too lately. I corroborate what Meow says about the difficulty of racing/disrupt combo. 1st, we do not play any disruption. 2nd, we are 1 turn slow compared to them (generally, we can win turn 5 or 6, versus 4 or 5 concerning combo). 3rd, they usually pack enough disruption to slow us down 1 or 2 turns (discard, pierce or remand). All this to say, that it's impossible MD. Post-SB, we do not have a lot of options, regarding the fact, we play mono-green... As a preamble, I think it's fair to say that this deck should not be played in a combo metagame.

However, it's really strong against control and aggro, and we do not want to be a bye against Combo.

Zeroth idea: zeroth, because it's not a SB idea. You should be playing 4*Summoning Trap MD. It can help to race, to supprise-kill, to mana-ramp into an Eldrazi. Moreover, it's an instant so that you can keep mana open for anti-enchantments during your opponent turn but still do something.

First idea: if you're playing Stirring, there is no reason for not playing Chalice*4. Chalice@0 has been surprisingly good so far, maybe even better than @1. It stops Affinity, Living Dead and Lotus Bloom-decks. Chalice@1 are good against Affinity, Omelet, Ascension, Cantrip-based combo decks and also mana-ramp combo decks. Marginally, you can play it @3 against Splinter Twin if you're fast enough. It happened to me once, but I guess it's rarely soon enough in play (also they can respond it by playing the flash creature and then you're fucked up). If you don't play Stirring, well, you should.

Second idea: a mix of Nature's Claim/Krosan Grip/Wickerbough Elder. Nature's Claim if you play Eternal Witness or expect a lot of Omelet and K Grip if you expect a lot of Splinter Twin. Wickerbought Elder*1, if you play GSZ. It can slow down a lot your opponent playing Enduring Ideal, Ascension, Omelet, Lotus Bloom, Splinter Twin.

Third idea: Lodestone Golem. Better than Trinisphere against everything that is not Omelet. It's a clock in addition of being a kill, it can be played off Trap and tutored with Eye, even if it's not the play of the year.

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Let's change subjet: the mana base. I see a lot of builds playing 25-28 lands + 4-8 land tutors (Sylvan Scrying and Expedition Map). How many games do play ending with lands in hand? Even Explore won't help you to empty your hand. As for myself, I chose to play the minimum: 25 lands, no tutor at all and 4 Explore. I play Stirring for finding my lands and if I don't find cloudposts, it's not really a problem, because I play 4*Overgrown Battlement + 4*GSZ. I also play 4*Titan to go really crazy when time has come.

I finally removed the Planeswalkers. I had no way of tutoring them. All is dust was also removed because I play too many green creatures:
25 lands:
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
11 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eye of Ugin

12 tutors:
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 GSZ
4 Summoning Trap

19 creatures:
4 Magus of the Candelabra
4 Overgrown Battlement
4 Primeval Titan
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Terastodon
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cantrips:
4 Explore

SB :
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Krosan Grip
2 Nature's Claim
1 Wickerbought Elder

How do you find the magus of the tabernacle? Woops im not used to typing any other magus name beside moon. I ment candelabra indeed.

[Maveric78f]

I found that they (magus of the candelabra obviously, not tabernacle) were too many in a version of the deck that does not want to rely too much on finding cloudpost. Right now, I've reduced their count to 2, and removed one forest too and added 3 Expedition Map. I'm still not sure it's the best option. The other MD change I made is to replace the sundering titan with a second copy of Terastodon, because it's just too good. Against aggro it's 18 power on 4 creatures, against control/combo it's a triple stone rain. Concerning the SB, I followed SpikeyMikey recommendation of playing 4*Beast Within (in place of Grip and Claim) and I'm very happy with it.

At this point, I'm not sure about Magus#2, the 3*Expedition Map, and Ulamog, which I hardly never tutor with Eye and I might prefer Terastodon#3 in its place.

To answer more precisely to your question Magus is a Time Walk, as it makes your Cloudpost/Vesuva useful the turn they come into play. But, as I said earlier its usefulness is conditionned to the fact you have a cloudpost in play. As a 2-of, I still tutor it very often with GSZ but I have it much less as a dead card when I'd prefer a simple mana provided. As a conclusion, it's great but conditionnal and can be useless sometimes.

I did some probabilities for Summoning Trap. I basically play 9 cards I'm almost always happy to reveal (and generally mean game for me): 2*Emrakul, 1*Ulamog, 2*Terastodon and 4*Titan. I have 70% chance of revealing one of them. If I add 2*Wurmcoil Engine to the list, then I reach 78%. Then I have 14% of revealing a mana-creature (6 of them) and 8% of revealing nothing. You have to know these probabilities when you play the deck in order to choose between your plays.

Also with 4*Cloudpost, 3*Expedition Map and 4*Stirring, you have 40% chance of having cloudpost in your opening hand, 20% of additional chance of getting post through map, and 18% additionnal chance of having Stirring, having 60% chance hitting either map or post. In the end, you should be able to drop Cloudpost on turn 3 in more than 70% chance.

[Waikiki]

Ok so I've been inspired by mav's list and tuned it a bit to my liking. So far its been awesome ! been able to stop combo thnx to chalice and the golem(great find)

The list:

// Lands
1 [FUT] Dryad Arbor
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [MR] Cloudpost
4 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
2 [FUT] Horizon Canopy
10 [M12] Forest (3)

// Creatures
4 [ROE] Overgrown Battlement
2 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2 [SOM] Wurmcoil Engine
1 [TSP] Magus of the Candelabra
1 [WWK] Terastodon

// Spells
4 [WWK] Explore
3 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [MBS] Green Sun's Zenith
4 [ROE] Ancient Stirrings
4 [ZEN] Summoning Trap

// Sideboard
SB: 3 [NPH] Beast Within
SB: 4 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 4 [UD] Plow Under
SB: 4 [WWK] Lodestone Golem

On a sidenote ulamog won me a game for being indestructible (wog)

[Kuma]

Third idea: Lodestone Golem. Better than Trinisphere against everything that is not Omelet. It's a clock in addition of being a kill, it can be played off Trap and tutored with Eye, even if it's not the play of the year.

B-but Lodestone Golem is burnable!

Generally, I would not play a creature for stopping combo. Almost all combo decks play red and thus some kind of burn.

******************************************************************************************************************

Let's change subjet: the mana base. I see a lot of builds playing 25-28 lands + 4-8 land tutors (Sylvan Scrying and Expedition Map). How many games do play ending with lands in hand? Even Explore won't help you to empty your hand. As for myself, I chose to play the minimum: 25 lands, no tutor at all and 4 Explore. I play Stirring for finding my lands and if I don't find cloudposts, it's not really a problem, because I play 4*Overgrown Battlement + 4*GSZ. I also play 4*Titan to go really crazy when time has come.

I tried your last posted list and I really think you want at least four land tutors. There were a couple of games where I used Explore to cast a turn three Primeval Titan, but mostly I just dropped an extra Forest or nothing at all. If Explore was Sylvan Scrying or Expedition Map, I could have gotten a Cloudpost/Glimmerpost/Eye of Ugin etc. Running some land tutors will also free up your Ancient Stirrings to find threats.

To answer your question, I often end games with lands in my hand, but having those lands on the battlefield usually wouldn't have made a difference. It's usually an extra Forest.

25 lands:
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
11 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Eye of Ugin

12 tutors:
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 GSZ
4 Summoning Trap

19 creatures:
4 Magus of the Candelabra
4 Overgrown Battlement
4 Primeval Titan
2 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Sundering Titan
1 Terastodon
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Cantrips:
4 Explore

SB :
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Lodestone Golem
2 Wurmcoil Engine
2 Krosan Grip
2 Nature's Claim
1 Wickerbought Elder

I know you've changed this list somewhat, but I'm going to comment anyway. I liked Summoning Trap a lot when practicing with your list and I might try to work it into mine. I don't like the Dryad Arbor. I never once wanted to find it with a GSZ, preferring to wait for Overgrown Battlement, Magus of the Candelabra, or Primeval Titan. Four Magus of the Candelabra is way too many. I'd run one, maybe two if you're going to run Green Sun's Zenith. I only missed Kozilek in one game. He'll probably become the second Emrakul in my list. I'm not sure how I feel about Terastodon. He seems good in the mirror, but is a lot even for this deck.

Overall, I feel you're sacrificing a lot of consistency for the occasional turn three Primeval Titan.

[Waikiki]

the dryad arbor was really strong for me to be honest. Alot of times I struggled getting GG online which are only possible with T1 forest into GSZ or getting that T2 battlement where often times your going to drop cloudposts in the next turns.

[meow]

hi,

i have been working on the deck and i have dropped all the magus and also a Oracle of Mul Daya (i used to like him to ensure i can play at least one spell per turn not drawing lands. they were good but since i added 4 wall of roots (the interaction with Overgrown Battlement is just awesome) i saw that i didn't need to tutor magus or play him anymore. I have added a eternal witness and have been very happy with it. Last change in side i added Qasali Pridemage + gaddock teeg and it helped a lot to find the answer at the good time.

About my online tourney here's the 1st part until here i made 2 rounds.

1st round vs Pyromancer Ascension (2-1)

G1 : the guy drops Pyromancer Ascension turn 1 with rite of flame then he just combo me out.

G2 : side : +4 calice of the void -4 summoning strap, +3 krosan grip -3 wurmcoil engine
I'm able to calice @ 1 at the 2nd turn he doesn't find an answer before i drop emrakul gg.

G3 : side : no change
Turn 2 calice @ 1, turn 3 calice @2... GG. (land order cloudpost, forest, glimmer)

2nd round vs zoo (2-0)

G1 : i drop life until 6 then primeval titan comes and i'm able to get another could + eye of urgin, Titan gets his path to exile and the next turn i drop emrakul.

G2 : side : +4 calice of the void -3 Ancient Stirrings -primeval titan
I drop a turn 2 calice @1, 3 turns later he will say GG showing me hand with 6/6 cards with 1cc.

Feeling good until here i'll add the full report when i'll be at the end of the tourney.