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Thread: [INN]Mad Labs

  1. #41

    Re: [INN]Mad Labs

    nice build action. it seems that the g/u sheel is faster and more stable. but i like the u/b sheel for its protection and permission! and im not sure i understand why u dont play Thought Lash ? i can see playing 1 or 2 levelers as a fetch for worldly but isent a resolved lash just gg vs almost any aggro deck?

  2. #42
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    Re: [INN]Mad Labs

    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...-(with-primer)

    Here's a deck with Thought Lash in it. Maybe we should see if there's some tech to retrive in this old thread.

    I do feel Sensei diving top may be needed as it let us choose which card we exile and which card we draw once thought Lash is online. If SDT's there maybe the combo could be played along side a counterbalance defense device.

    I also feel that Remand is needed. Once our library is empty it allows us to win in response to any spell that treatens maniac.

  3. #43

    Re: [INN]Mad Labs

    Quote Originally Posted by Sempra View Post
    nice build action. it seems that the g/u sheel is faster and more stable. but i like the u/b sheel for its protection and permission! and im not sure i understand why u dont play Thought Lash ? i can see playing 1 or 2 levelers as a fetch for worldly but isent a resolved lash just gg vs almost any aggro deck?
    Thanks.

    You could try it. But w/ x4 Leveler, x4 Maniac + x4 Worldly with the library manipulation from Brainstorm (option of Snapcaster Flash-Back) + Fetchland, getting to a Leveler was more and extremely consistant. If you put in a Thought Lash, it would feel so random and might dilute the synergy of playing 8 combo creature parts and 4 tutors that double as utililty (protection/additional Maniacs). Also there was at least one game where two Ancient Tombs were tapped to cast a Leveler.

    Maybe Thought Lash in SB or main-deck some # against a really heavy agro meta... keep in mind this extremely prelimary testing.

    My goal was to see if it's viable and it sure seems to work and did well against Merfolk.

    I also feel that Remand is needed. Once our library is empty it allows us to win in response to any spell that treatens maniac.
    Keep in mind with the Leveler build, you go off turn 4/5 and are tapped out so no option for Remand. Gitaxian Probe is only answer (or Street Wraith if you can fit it in) or wait another turn w/ a 10/10 blocker as protection (and hopefully holding free Mental Missteps or FoW).
    Last edited by ActionJunkie; 09-13-2011 at 12:16 PM.

  4. #44

    Re: [INN]Mad Labs

    Hmm...what about this for a potential sideboard:

    4 Thought Lash
    4 Surgical Extraction
    4 Trygon Predator
    3 Research

    EDIT: hmm, don't think Research works like I want it to in this case.

  5. #45
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    Re: [INN]Mad Labs

    For those playing Leveler, are you serious? It costs 5! Thought Lash is a more respectable idea, but 4cc is still steep. On the other hand, Divining Witch is a 1-card combo curved at 2, and Vial just makes the combo better.

    I started from Vial Wizard, but then realised Spellshaper is not Wizard. (Come on Wizard, is there a chance to errata those Spellshapers.). I had to replace Vedalken Aethermage and Steely Resolve by Worldly Tutor and Sylvan Safekeeper, but Safekeeper put too much strain on the mana base. Finally, I dropped G and add W, using Lim Dul's Vault and Mother of Runes instead. This build works better.

    Vial Wizard

    12 WUB Fetches
    2 Underground Sea
    1 Scrubland
    1 Tundra
    1 Plains
    1 Island
    1 Swamp
    4 Aether Vial

    4 Mother of Runes
    4 Divining Witch
    2 Snapcaster Mage
    4 Laboratory Maniac

    4 Brainstorm
    2 Ponder
    2 Gitaxian Probe
    3 Cabal Therapy
    4 Mental Misstep
    4 Lim Dul's Vault
    4 Force of Will

    It looks like a slower Cephalid Breakfast with more compact combo suite and hence more protections. I tested against RUG decks, but the result is miserable.

    Edit: @kiblast: just noticed our builds are quite similar, have you done any tests so far? IMO, anti-removals are very important, as we don't want a Grim Lavamancer to turn the win back to a loss.

  6. #46

    Re: [INN]Mad Labs

    For those playing Leveler, are you serious? It costs 5! Thought Lash is a more respectable idea, but 4cc is still steep. On the other hand, Divining Witch is a 1-card combo curved at 2, and Vial just makes the combo better.
    Divining Witch cost 2BB (which includes an activation that can be hated) and there's summoning sickness... not sure what the hate is against a 5cc artifact in Legacy especially one that only needs to resolve. Ancient Tomb/Crystal Vein let you go off turn 4 w/ Leveler if you are ready.

    @tsabo: Your list is interesting but it seems slower than necessary. There's a bunch of agro decks that would probably eat that list alive. Casual, it looks like loads of fun with Vial/MoR/combo-pieces.

    Hmm...what about this for a potential sideboard:

    4 Thought Lash
    4 Surgical Extraction
    4 Trygon Predator
    3 Research
    Yeah, Thought Lash, Surgical Extraction seem like good SB options. Also worth noting from the above list, perhaps Vial/Divining Witch are more SB ideas vs. Landstill or other heavy control builds. If you pack enough protection in your main list, might actually be viable to include 3-4 Thought Lash (agro) AND 4 vial/4 Witch (control) in SB.

  7. #47

    Re: [INN]Mad Labs

    Quote Originally Posted by death View Post
    Painter can easily be overwhelmed with creatures and it has no other way of protecting itself other than red blasts and Servant needs to stick for that to be effective in the first place.

    With Thought Lash you can sustain the damage, it's like Solitary Confinement and when you land it you just wait till you find your win con. I'm not saying it's the bomb right now, but it is really a new, cool way of winning at Magic.
    And neither does Laboratory Maniac, which is completely open to all kinds of relevant hate. You're also referring to "Imperial Painter," which you don't have to sculpt your shell around with Blasts - although it is light-years better than 'Leveler.deck' which has effectively eight dead slots in Thought Lash and Leveler without Maniac. It (Maniac) acts as the main port between win-conditions of Painter-Grindstone and Thought Lash with itself. It's cheaper, faster, and gives you more flexibility where you might otherwise tighten your list around cards like Leveler - which is awful.

    @ActionJunkie: You obviously have no clue what you're talking about; if you're running a terrible card like Leveler - which is completely situational and cannot even be brought into play without Maniac - Torpor Orb at minimum gives you the option of playing a 10/10 for five mana. This is, assuming, anyone wants to play Leveler when there are far better options and faster win conditions available in the format in general. Susceptibility isn't even an issue; you can't even play that card without having the aforementioned in play, and even Thought Lash requires serious consideration at the time of its casting due in large part to its upkeep cost (and comparing it to Solitary Confinement is rather moot; Thought Lash requires you to exile cards - potentially key cards in a deck like this - off the top of your library to be useful where as Solitary Confinement is generally only useful in decks like Enchantress where you can draw cards to benefit over the course of the game without even being targeted). You're overlooking intricacies involved with cards that are generally useless on their own merit instead of identifying just how bad the bad really is.

    It isn't "win-more" in Painter; Painter is clearly a more well-established and much faster combo than a deck of this type would be, and adding Maniac simply gives you outs to Emrakul-based strategies or grants you an alternative win-condition when paired with Thought Lash. Like, seriously: Are you really that worse off playing cards you think that are "win more" than those (gasp) 'strategic' cards that are explicitly "win less" in more circumstances than not? Why would you want to strategically warp your strategy by basing your entire deck around a single creature? That's simply poor deck-building all around the board.

    Also, my suggestion of Torpor Orb was limited in its scope based on the already overly limited utility of Leveler, so you can see where attempting to help in finding some justification to run a card like Leveler would evoke ideas abound trying to make it less narrow in its overall utility.

    Looking at these lists, they all are completely reliant on Laboratory Maniac to win games. That is the sign of either a 'rough-sketch' Combo archetype still being smoothed out on all cylinders, or a completely narrow strategy that has limited - if any - capability to sustain a game without Maniac in play. I'm simply stating you might want to find an alternative way to win games reliably, because that by itself is not going to cut it without some sort of contingency plan or better assembly of utility cards. The real issue here is whether or not Laboratory Maniac is better as a 'Sixth Man' to help off the bench or the 'All Star' you're trying to break in the starting lineup. I just don't see it being overly useful unless you can get to turn four reliably with some assembly of the combo pieces in play and protection at the ready.

    How often that happens really remains to be seen.

  8. #48
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    Re: [INN]Mad Labs

    Quote Originally Posted by Hollywood View Post
    adding Maniac simply gives you outs to Emrakul-based strategies or grants you an alternative win-condition when paired with Thought Lash.
    I still think Maniac is sub-optimal even paired with Painter. SB option at best, but why pay 2U to beat decks with Emrakul/Progenitus/Colossus when you could just use Crypt, which is cheaper, eats less removal, weldable, and has utility in other situations as well?
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

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  9. #49

    Re: [INN]Mad Labs

    @Hollywood, I don't play Leveler and I have my own list. I'm playing mono-U Thought Lash.dec and I believe people who are putting the card in their sideboard are doing it wrong. Here's my list from page 2:

    Haven't lost twice in a round against the same deck but I'm 1-1 against Team America and Melira.dec. I've beaten Merfolk, U/W Landstill and Goblins. Haven't faced Qasali Pridemages yet and obviously those games can be problematic.

  10. #50

    Re: [INN]Mad Labs

    death:

    Would you ever consider replacing Intuition with Impulse?

    Actionjunkie: Glad to see you're working on this. The biggest question is, " how much of the current Legacy Removal is at 1CMC on the curve? How much at 2? I ask this because, in a meta where they're playing lots of Smother/Edict effects, then Spell Snare becomes a potential alternative to Misstep.

    Hollywood: that opens up an alternative SB option, with Fat beats, such as:

    Torpor Orb
    Phyrexian Dreadnought
    Eater of Days

  11. #51

    Re: [INN]Mad Labs

    @Hollywood - this is a combo deck. Combo decks are about consistency and protection - adding Torpor Orb or Maniac in Painter-Grindstone is only viable in some funky SB jank. Reread the thread as your wall of text was full of things already mentioned - we're only at 3 pages ;). Also suggest playtesting (as some of us already have :P) - many of your thoughts are just plain wrong when tried against tier 1 Legacy decks.

    @Darkenslight - a bunch of the removal is at 1cc which is why Mental Misstep might actually make the deck viable. The issue/priority is having Maniac in hand, in play, and protected. It sounds nearly impossible but every combo deck has to do something similar. Maniac is most vunerable when casting Leveler (or Thought Lash)... the goal is to go off turn 4/5 to be competitive which means most often you need "free protection spells" unless you've already dumped them when resolving Maniac. The only free spells I can think of for the deck is Misstep and FoW (or Spellskite activation). Spell Snare is possibly an alternative but finding room could be an issue. Misstep also protects them from Missteping a Worldy Tutor which you will be doing a lot of w/ Snapcaster.

    Also from my prelimary testing of the deck I posted, don't fret if you lose a Maniac. If/when that happens, it's extremely easy to get to another thanks to x4 Worldly Tutor + Snapcaster Mage + library maniuplation (brainstorm/gitaxian probe/fetch).

    I completely agree Thought Lash has huge potential and might be the best build. But again the issue is keeping protection while being very consistant. Worldly Tutor + Ancient Tomb/Crystal Vein allows the deck to be competitively consistent w/ Leveler. I've yet to see a build w/ Thought Lash that is even close in consistency.

    EDIT: Doing more playtesting against recent SC Open 1st/2nd-place decks this weekend or early next week. Will try to get in more and hopefully a good amount of "Mad Labs" tessting and report back.
    Last edited by ActionJunkie; 09-15-2011 at 04:49 PM.

  12. #52

    Re: [INN]Mad Labs

    Quote Originally Posted by Darkenslight View Post
    death:

    Would you ever consider replacing Intuition with Impulse?
    I'll replace 1-2 Intuition/Gitaxian Probe with 2 Impulse and see how it goes. Intuition gets worse when 2 copies of a card are already in the GY or removed from the game.

    Sensei's Divining Top may even be better since I have 12 shuffle effects with 8 fetchlands/4 Ponder.

  13. #53
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    Re: [INN]Mad Labs

    Quote Originally Posted by death View Post
    Sensei's Divining Top may even be better since I have 12 shuffle effects with 8 fetchlands/4 Ponder.
    ...and Top + Thought Lash is golden to further dig into your library. Well,isgood for the first 2 upkeeps, then it's suicide. But during the first 2 cumulative upkeeps, is rather good.
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  14. #54

    Re: [INN]Mad Labs

    You may activate top after the upkeep cost is paid, prior to drawing a card.

    My last resort would be to splash black for Lim-Dul's Vault, seems pretty good.

    EDIT-
    @Smea.gol.lum - Shelldock + Emrakul seems bad. For it to work, you need a way to consistently put Emrakul in the top 4 cards of your library. Without Doomsday it's going to be a worse 3-card combo still dependent on resolving Thought Lash. Show and Tell will not work either because it has no interaction with the primary combo besides Emrakul, both cards are dead draws without each other.
    Last edited by death; 09-15-2011 at 09:56 PM.

  15. #55
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    Re: [INN]Mad Labs

    Quote Originally Posted by death View Post
    You may activate top after the upkeep cost is paid, prior to drawing a card.
    Yeah, that's obvious, what I wanted to say is that at the beginning of your upkeep, you may activate top, put on top lands or a second Thought Lash or any other irrelevant card, rfg them, and then check again so in your upkeep you get to see 4/5 cards instead of 3 with your top.

    After the second cumulative upkeep, the added utility of Thought Lash in combination with Top vanishes, because you just get to see 3 cards from which you can choose something to draw (the other 3 must be removed anyway, unless you choose to loose Top and rfg Top instead of a particular card).

    Top+ Thought Lash+ Long Term Plans = instant speed Demonic Tutor...
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    Re: [INN]Mad Labs

    I've been working on this concept as well; but instead of using leveler i decided to run hermit druid. And build a vial around it.

    4 hermit druid
    4 spellstutter sprite
    4 snapcaster mage
    3 laboratory maniac
    3 stoneforge mystic

    4 aether vial
    1 batterskull
    1 sword of feast and famine

    4 brainstorm
    4 spell pierce
    3 remand
    3 swords to plowshares
    1 pact of negation

    4 misty rainforest
    3 windswept heath
    4 tropical island
    1 savannah
    1 tundra
    1 riptide laboratory
    1 academy ruins
    1 tolaria west
    2 dryad arbor
    3 hinterland harbor
    Two the New Three

  17. #57
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    Re: [INN]Mad Labs

    Hermit Druid is banned.

  18. #58

    Re: [INN]Mad Labs

    I've created a new thread for exclusive discussion of Thought Lash.dec here:

    http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/Deck-U-x-Thought-Lash

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    Re: [INN]Mad Labs

    Looks like someone mentioned it earlier, but it looks to me like Ancestral Knowledge may be missing from any version of this deck.

    It give you the option to quasi mill, and dig for other combo piece / protection if you pay the Cumulative OR Brainstorm some less optimal cards away.

  20. #60

    Re: [INN]Mad Labs

    @Ancestral Knowledge - It's worse than Long-Term Plans and Lim-Dul's Vault, at best you get to draw 1 chosen card from the top 10. You can't cast this earlier than turn 3 and if you don't pay the upkeep cost or if you crack a fetchland it's just counterintuitive.

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