I just don't see why you would play Snapcaster at all when Vendilion Clique functionally costs the same, has an arguably better effect at that cost, and actually has a respectable power with evasion to boot (important distinction since all your other creatures flie as well).
An arguably better effect? I disagree. Snapcaster is card advantage, and Clique is even cards. Snapcaster can kill something, and counter a spell, for some examples.Originally Posted by Infinitium
They actually do have an arguably better effect, at least in certain decks. The thing is, at least in my playtesting experience, Snapcaster was at its strongest against aggro, where I was effectively doubling up my removal. Clique tends to be stronger against combo and control.
Clique is a bigger threat because of the extra power and the evasion, so I don't think it's a totally clear cut decision, but the deck is at its weakest against aggro, so Snapcaster is likely the better choice of the two for that slot.
Delver and Snap caster belong in different decks in my opinion. Delver wants a high spell low creature and land count while Snap caster is mana hungry and want ~22 ish lands to be optimal. In Tempo decks with low land counts you rarely have the mana to use snap caster when needed. Basically what I would run creature wise would be
4x Tombstalkers
4x Delvers
2x Vendilion Clique
Yep. Delver is the better card. It does something no other blue card can while Snapcaster has to fight for it's spot. Picked up my Delvers for, well nothin'.
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I was thinking of something similar to this sort of crossed with The Gate. I don't know if this is the appropriate thread for it, but since it's more Black based than Blue, but I'll throw it out there anyway...
Creatures 14
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dark Confidant
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Abyssal Persecutor
Instants 15
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
3 Gitaxian Probe
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Diabolic Edict
Sorceries 9
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Torach
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
Planeswalkers 3
3 Liliana of the Veil
Land 19
4 Wasteland
4 Bloodstained Mire
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
2 Swamp
1 Island
SB
Spell Pierce
Surgical Extraction
Duress
Perish
Engineered Plague
Ghastly Demise
Umezawa's Jitte
etc.
It's rough at this point, but basically is looking to ramp up CA through the early-game with Therapy, Hymn, and Dark Confidant - then seal the midgame with Snapcaster and Liliana2. Probe while sort of janky, I'd consider for T1: Probe -> Therapy, T2: Snapcaster -> Probe -> fb Therapy.
Something on the higher end of the curve might have to be cut for the 20th land, but there's a bunch of cheap draw, and the curve is pretty low so it might work as is.
4 Therapy, 3 Liliana, 2 Diabolic Edict seems like plenty of ways to off Persecutor so I think it can fit here allowing you to have some beefy fliers and Dark Confidant. Persecutor fits better with Snapcaster than Tombstalker anyway.
The SB could be tailored to fill gaps, more removal vs agro, Surgicals/Pates and Spell Pierces versus combo and control.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Tombstalker
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
3 Spell Snare
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
3 Firespout
3 Snuff Out
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Scalding Tarn
Firespout is ridiculous here against Merfolk, Goblins, Zoo, and a slew of other decks. While this is a strange card to maindeck, I think it's really good in the current environment, and I'm especially impressed by the supporting cast of cards that get run alongside it here. I haven't gotten the chance to playtest it much, but I like how Firespout touches none of my dudes, and that I am playing Hymn to Tourach in my deck. Clique over Snapcaster is a guess, imo. I think this deck wants more reliable clocking + Utility, but I could be wrong. Thoughts?
I think in your shell Clique makes a lot more sense. Snapcaster doesn't have much synergy with Snuff Out or Firespout, so it would miss out on enforcing creature control. You'd probably want to run Lightning Bolts and Dismembers/Ghastly Demises for creature control if using Snapcaster.
I think that there are two ways to build the deck: a more control-oriented shell, that expects to see the mid-game, or the aggressive shell that most of you have identifyed above.
I have been experimenting with a more controlling build, to some good success. What I will say is that I have not tested the zoo matchup yet, which is almost certainly a major concern. As far as the Goblins tissy you guys got into above, Goblins can be a fairly tough matchup, but unlike Merfolk, remember that Stifle is very good against them. The lack of removal Im maindecking will probably make the game one incredibly tough, but you'll see that this is addressed in the sideboard. As far as the Snapcaster argument goes, I think, and I could be wrong here, but I think that the Snapcaster goes into the more controlling build, but probably not the aggressive build. Comments are welcome, but again I think that you have to identify what you want the deck to accomplish, and then match your card selection to that objective. An example of how my list reflects this, is the choice to eschew Daze in favor of Counterspell. Also, I think that Clique is better in the more controlling build. Finally, Thoughtseize, in my opinion, is best in the agressive build, while isn't as strong in my version. Let me know what you think. The sideboard probably still needs some work.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dark Confidant
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendillion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Hymn to Torach
3 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
2 Dismember
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Go for the Throat
2 Jace
4 Wasteland
4 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
2 Flooded Strand
2 Marsh Flats
2 Island
1 Swamp
2 Mishra's Factory
Sideboard
4 Enginered Plague
1 Darkblast
2 Ghastly Demise
2 Bitterblossom
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Extirpate (better with Delver/Snapcaster)
My only qualm with the opening decklist is only 2 Stalkers. I would play 3, but that's me.
@Troopatroop: With a red splash for Firespout... Fire/Ice? Lightning Bolt?
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Has any tried Lilliana? It makes the deck more mid-range, but turn 3 Lilly followed by Turn 4 Jace is pretty brutal.
I have been playing Ubr Dreadstalker for some time. I know it belongs to the other thread, but the deck are very similar (with Tombstalker/Delver/Clique).
I haven't had success with the Ubr build for the past 2-3 weeks despite the fact that red splash for bolts/REB/Firespout is great on paper. It does improve your merfolk matchup with combination of Firespout/bolt/REB, but I think the biggest issue I have is the inconsistency of tri-color with playing only 18-19 lands.
For the longest time I was wondering how did Team America pull off a consistent tri-color manabase with Tombstalker and I realized that most TA lists are running 20+ lands. I would advice that if you're going tri-color, playing 20+ lands is required. The case is different for Canadian Thresh because the deck does not have anything that have double-color in its casting cost.
I'm still going to be playing UB or UBr Dreadstalker. I feel that the UB Delverstalker lists shouldn't be too focused on the control role. It is ultimately a tempo deck, and playing too many Snapcaster and too little Tombstalker tends to push it to the control role, at which point you would need to revise the decklist to include more lands, and possibly play Jace etc.
Decks that I care about:
Steel Stompy
UWx Landstill
Dreadstalker
DDFT (10% practice)
Mangara on MWS? You must be masochistic. -kiblast
Well, I guess I'll post over in this thread since my build is pretty close to what you guys are working on with one large exception. Unearth.
This one is much more aggressive than the ones here with a lot of redundancy. It has issues so don't copy it and expect it to perform well against everything. I have barely tested this one. It may be amazing as is, but it probably needs more tuning to shore up weaknesses. I found a huge glaring one already with it, but luckily no one plays those types of cards and I'm not telling unless the deck turns out to suck or I change it up a lot.
Basically, the games all go the same way. I rip their hand to pieces and send them into topdeck mode killing anything that hits the table. Then we play the top deck mode game. Can you top deck something that shuts me down? That's the issue with it so far. It rips into people fast. That it does and does well. Problem is the follow up. People just top deck their way out occasionally since you have no counters.
I didn't want to play Forces or Dazes due to the Bobs and discard is more mana efficient anyway. I think it works for the most part as is. Blue decks without force? omg yuracrazypersons.
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Dark Confidant
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Unearth
4 Brainstorm
1 Psionic Blast
4 Diabolic Edict
3 Thoughtseize
3 Duress
4 Hymn to Tourach
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Wasteland
1 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
3 Swamp
2 Island
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Riptide Laboratory
The Stronghold has been pretty golden so far. Making for more redundancy. Nothing like chumping with Snapcasters all day and getting bonus cards for a bit. lol It's nice for reusing critters. It's definitely going to stay.
Riptides are an old trick. Nothing new there. I did actually use them to save myself when I had three bob's out at one time to race an Enchantress deck. Weird use. Chumping and avoiding kill is always decent too. Cliques have always been decent to use with it. I toss extra discard to Clique with it a lot so I can get something more appropriate to the board.
Liliana is actually pretty amazing in here and even shoved big Jace out for that spot. She just has way more synergy with the deck compared to Jace. Sounds blasphemous I know, but she just worked out better. The casting cost made a huge difference. She gets you out of sticky situations where things go out of hand sometimes too. I used her ultimate against a BUG Landstill to separate his green mana into one pile and the rest in the other. Loam or not to Loam, that is the question he faced. Heh. He decided to go to three lands again from 11 and start loaming. Not bad.
Edict came in just because it's good against everything. Playing an edict and using it twice in every game is pretty good last I heard. This is a note from seeing Mono-B control decks decimate creature light decks like Bant Aggro, Threshold, and Team America type decks. Go try it if you don't think it works. Mono-B rapes those decks. Liliana just helps this out. She's typically good for 2 edict effects against most creature heavy decks. That's as good as a Snapcaster use on a reg one.
Wastes seem like a silly addition with only 2 and it almost is. If it wasn't for annoying lands like Mishras, I might pull them. I still might pull them since you can edict a lot, I mean a lot. If I yank them out, it's going to be a Tower of the Magistrate (because Batterskull is a little bitch who needs to die) and the other spot will be one of 2 Creeping Tar Pits I plan to jam in. I really would like an attacker that goes through board sweepers like Deed and EE and avoids most chumpers.
Yes, I know it's 61 cards. It's a trademark of mine. The 61st card is the shot out of left frigging field. Psionic Blast just messes with people's heads. It's expensive to use so it's a late game thing anyway unless you just happen to catch small Knights and Goyfs an feel like making people read cards. It's best as an EOT shocker to the face for 4 points, then flash it back for another 4. Ow...
I haven't had a chance to play against much of anything so don't ask how it does against certain decks since I won't be able to tell you until later. I've only played a small tournament with it and a few extra games against Enchantress. It does do well against that deck btw. I don't mind facing that at all.
Bant Aggro seemed pretty simple with more than enough cards in my hand that had no targets with each game.
Stoneblade seems about the same way, though I did play against one with Bitterblossom and that card scares me. Go go Psionic.
This little deck goes head to head with the blue based stuff pretty well. We have a lot of good control players so I got a good workout on those.
Sideboard-
I don't even have a side board for it yet, though I have figured out to have a couple of items that seem obvious for now.
Engineered explosives. Because UB isn't real good at killing artifacts or Enchantments. I might end up with Aura Flux and Energy Flux instead. Meh, dunno.
Go for the Throats, because sometimes, edict is not enough and having a technical 21+ kill spells makes you feel all fuzzy inside.
Word of Command, because I don't like Hive Mind. Screw that deck. Killing them on turn 2 is funny too.
Perish - Because it's good I heard.
Extirpate - Because no deck can abuse them quite like this one.
Kira, Glass Spinner - Because Zoo is probably going to have an advantage having all that removal, might as well make them work for it. Seems decent. Pretty good for people who rely way too much on Swords too.
Anyway, that's my take on this style. Hope you can take something from it or prove I was on the right track already. I'll be working on it for a while. It's too fun.
HI
Care to post your list or tell where the thread of U/B/r build is supposed to be? I'm also trying this build that has smother instead of fire//ice and disruption package of 3 hymn and 2/1 split of inquisition/thoughtseize with 18 lands. I'm pondering on adding an 19th land with either badlands or urborg.
Goblins? They can easily drop all of their dudes and make your sac effects unable to hit anything relevant. Their red-based removal can kill any of your creatures.
This deck is beautiful, but I still think it wants at least 2 Hymns maindeck. I do agree that Smother is criminally underplayed, and Spell Snare might have something to do with that.
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Luckily I meant cards that aren't played at all anymore. Old school stuff.
Goblins sees quite a bit of play. I haven't tested that one yet so I have no idea on how it does. I can imagine it has about the same result as mono-B control since the deck has close to the same kill density. However that turned out anyway. No idea on how Mono-B control did against it, but it should turn out the same if it gives you an idea.
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