[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[Final Fortune]

It's not an issue of credit, I just find your arguments to be condescending when you claim that I've played Telemin Performance less than you when it's clear to anyone who has read the thread that it's the other way around, saying you make data driven decisions and then resorting to ad hominem just mares the discussion. If I was the one suggesting Island, Badlands and Defense Grid, I'd expect you to be just as skeptical.

No, I don't see Surgical Extraction in the Storm mirror, I don't even see Surgical Extraction in Storm SBs really - there are some ANT lists that play 1 or 2, but ANT SBs are so personalized that I'm not sure them having it, SBing it in, discarding Burnish Wish and then knowing I SBed out my kill condition is worth it over the disruption. Even they are playing Burnish Wish now and Faerie Macabre is better vs Reanimator, so it seems like a weird fad.

Yeah I agree that Void Snare isn't great post-board either, I think there are better cards to SB than both Grape Shot and Void Snare regardless if we're playing creature removal, Badlands makes me wonder what SB cards are going to be better just based on the mana available i.e. does Grape Shot vs Void Snare vs Death Mark or Echoing Truth vs Abrade come down to the lands we choose. Island, go makes you re-evaluate a lot of your mana symbols.

[LOLWut]

No, I don't see Surgical Extraction in the Storm mirror, I don't even see Surgical Extraction in Storm SBs.

I mean, that's just pulled out of your ass. Storm decks from the last few months with sideboard Surgical- dozens of decks, the winner of Ovino, the winner of Channel Fireball's 4k, other big tournaments, heaps of MTGO decks

[Asthereal]

I mean, that's just pulled out of your ass. Storm decks from the last few months with sideboard Surgical- dozens of decks, the winner of Ovino, the winner of Channel Fireball's 4k, other big tournaments, heaps of MTGO decks

Technically, you cannot refute that remark. You can't know what he saw and what he did not see.

So instead of "pulled out of your ass", you could try "you haven't been paying much attention".
Backed up by the same examples, the latter would actually persuade us to agree with you.

[Lemnear]

If Grixis goes onto a wrecking spree with Therapy, you lost the game anyways. It's barely relevant if they extract your MAYBE drawn & discarded Wish after they left you with no hand. There is no way they can know if you play a MB wincon for each game or not.

The presence of Surgical Extraction is no argument for a MD wincon imo. If deemed required (like games with Meddling Mages), one can board in the ToA and access it with Peition off Wish if needed.

For me it looks like VS deserves a spot in the SB as Leyline returned as predicted. I also think that Karakas is a thing to consider.

[Final Fortune]

Technically, you cannot refute that remark. You can't know what he saw and what he did not see.

So instead of "pulled out of your ass", you could try "you haven't been paying much attention".
Backed up by the same examples, the latter would actually persuade us to agree with you.

ANT's SB is so personalized that I don't know how anyone can say what they are or aren't playing with any confidence, but considering ANT is playing Burning Wish itself, Surgical Extraction is worse than Faerie Macabre vs B/r Reanimator, we have a MD kill condition, they don't know if we SB out our MD kill condition or not and Surgical Extraction only finishes the game after they stop us from winning with discard I don't understand why anyone would SB in Surgical Extraction in the Storm mirror over more discard or Flusterstorm (which I presume they have in their SBs as well?)

I just don't see the need to play a kill condition in the Storm mirror and generally dislike Grape Shot, I have half a mind to cut the MD kill condition vs Miracles as well if we're SBing in Rending Volley because you can just Ad Nauseam for the Rending Volley and cast it on Meddling Mage before going off. Other than the whole redundant kill spell aspect, which you can still get around with Empty the Warrens and Dark Petition, Grape Shot is worse at killing creatures than Death Mark (Leovold, Thalia, Canonist etc.) and doesn't deal with Leyline of Sanctity (I admit it's narrow, but that card's impact is that worrysome).

[Bryant Cook]

It's not an issue of credit, I just find your arguments to be condescending when you claim that I've played Telemin Performance less than you when it's clear to anyone who has read the thread that it's the other way around, saying you make data driven decisions and then resorting to ad hominem just mares the discussion. If I was the one suggesting Island, Badlands and Defense Grid, I'd expect you to be just as skeptical.

You can find them to be whatever you'd like, but I don't think it's correct to recommend deck changes when it was pretty obvious that you've never actually tested Defense Grid. How am I supposed to weigh your opinions after that? Also, I've never stopped reading the read, I just haven't been responding to anything in preparation for the grand prix. I didn't want my list being common knowledge.

For what it's worth, I've played Telemin Peformance in 471 matches since the banning of Sensei's Divining Top. I have plenty of experience with the card, enough to discredit those who say how it is and isn't used.

The difference between us (that I can tell) is that I'm always trying new things. I streamed last night with a new sideboard for example. But when I try things that work, I'm going to stick with them - like Defense Grid and Telemin Performance.

No, I don't see Surgical Extraction in the Storm mirror, I don't even see Surgical Extraction in Storm SBs really - there are some ANT lists that play 1 or 2, but ANT SBs are so personalized that I'm not sure them having it, SBing it in, discarding Burnish Wish and then knowing I SBed out my kill condition is worth it over the disruption. Even they are playing Burnish Wish now and Faerie Macabre is better vs Reanimator, so it seems like a weird fad.

http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15921&d=297881&f=LE
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15963&d=298244&f=LE
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15917&d=297856&f=LE
http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=15862&d=297386&f=LE

These are lists from mtgtop8 in the last month that have it, while it's not in every list - it's in some. Enough for me to consider it as a factor when sideboarding. The percentage points of drawing that specific discard spell are so low and having it be effective aren't worth the risk in my opinion of flat out losing the game. Of course they're going to Surgical Extraction Burning Wish, because they think it'll shut you off from Tendrils of Agony and you're then forced to win with Goblin tokens which isn't ideal.

But looking at the link LOLWut posted, it's more common than I thought.

Yeah I agree that Void Snare isn't great post-board either, I think there are better cards to SB than both Grape Shot and Void Snare regardless if we're playing creature removal, Badlands makes me wonder what SB cards are going to be better just based on the mana available i.e. does Grape Shot vs Void Snare vs Death Mark or Echoing Truth vs Abrade come down to the lands we choose. Island, go makes you re-evaluate a lot of your mana symbols.

Grapeshot provides enough flexibility and provides outs to where I am not cutting the card. I use it frequently. For example, in my article against my Reanimator opponent or last night against Nic Fit after my Tendrils of Agony had been used - things happen and Grapeshot is a great back-up to have. You don't have to play it, but it's not leaving my sideboard.

For me it looks like VS deserves a spot in the SB as Leyline returned as predicted. I also think that Karakas is a thing to consider.

You mean my one opponent playing Sneak and Show had it? It's not super common and you can just sideboard a single Echoing Truth to defeat it. Karakas sucks, a lot - it doesn't hit Chancellor, Sire or Griselbrand effectively.

[Lemnear]

Of course they're going to Surgical Extraction Burning Wish, because they think it'll shut you off from Tendrils of Agony and you're then forced to win with Goblin tokens which isn't ideal.

Wait. What? This would imply that you keep EtW in during postboard games, which I think isn't going to happen in the storm mirror anyways. There is no reason to not board in ToA in place of EtW here, especially as Telemin and DP (into the MD ToA) remain wishable wincons. If they get to discard and remove the Wishes somehow, you would still have access to ToA & ITs with that plan.

You mean my one opponent playing Sneak and Show had it? It's not super common and you can just sideboard a single Echoing Truth to defeat it. Karakas sucks, a lot - it doesn't hit Chancellor, Sire or Griselbrand effectively.

I mean: S&T is back and Leyline with it. Not having to gamble on stuff than opponents MAYBE having stuff like Leyline was the reason we ran it in the first place.

[Bryant Cook]

Wait. What? This would imply that you keep EtW in during postboard games, which I think isn't going to happen in the storm mirror anyways. There is no reason to not board in ToA in place of EtW here, especially as Telemin and DP (into the MD ToA) remain wishable wincons. If they get to discard and remove the Wishes somehow, you would still have access to ToA & ITs with that plan.

I was trying to convey the average player's thought process. I likely did a poor job.

I don't keep Empty in on the draw, but every once in awhile, I do keep it in on the play. It allows for easy four mana lines when the opponent keeps a discard heavy hand. Most of the time, I just swap it for Tendrils of Agony. We're on the same page (with Surgicals and having access to Tendrils of Agony still), which is what I was trying to explain to Final Fortune.

I mean: S&T is back and Leyline with it. Not having to gamble on stuff than opponents MAYBE having stuff like Leyline was the reason we ran it in the first place.

Leyline isn't super common (yet). You can board in a single Echoing Truth and also have an out to it that isn't ETW. It saves a precious SB slot and is more flexible/versatile for other matchups like Chalice decks.

[CroSS.24]

In what cases would you sideboard in rending volley where you could just side in echoing truth instead? So far I haven't sided them in. I'm not sure there is a case where volley is significantly better than ET. Also Bryant, can you explain why you side ponders out a lot? It's been quite some time since I played magic and even longer (mystical tutor) since I was committed to tes.

[Bryant Cook]

In what cases would you sideboard in rending volley where you could just side in echoing truth instead? So far I haven't sided them in. I'm not sure there is a case where volley is significantly better than ET. Also Bryant, can you explain why you side ponders out a lot? It's been quite some time since I played magic and even longer (mystical tutor) since I was committed to tes.

Please read my last two articles and then the sideboarding guide on the website.

[Lemnear]

I was trying to convey the average player's thought process. I likely did a poor job.

I don't keep Empty in on the draw, but every once in awhile, I do keep it in on the play. It allows for easy four mana lines when the opponent keeps a discard heavy hand. Most of the time, I just swap it for Tendrils of Agony. We're on the same page (with Surgicals and having access to Tendrils of Agony still), which is what I was trying to explain to Final Fortune.

Very well then. My intent was merely hinting that we have two win-now cards in the 75 for the storm-mirror and that we can board one (Telemin or ToA) of them for the EtW and don't have to fear the Surgical-on-Wish blowout.

Leyline isn't super common (yet). You can board in a single Echoing Truth and also have an out to it that isn't ETW. It saves a precious SB slot and is more flexible/versatile for other matchups like Chalice decks.

I don't think VS overlaps with Chalice solutions, but with the slots you dedicated towards creatures like Rending Volley or GS

[Bryant Cook]

Very well then. My intent was merely hinting that we have two win-now cards in the 75 for the storm-mirror and that we can board one (Telemin or ToA) of them for the EtW and don't have to fear the Surgical-on-Wish blowout.

We're still on the same page... Final Fortune is arguing that we side neither and just had more discard. Which I don't believe is a good choice. I think Telemin is best in the sideboard for Burning Wish and would rather bring in Tendrils as we already have a 5 mana card that wins the game in Ad Nauseam.

I don't think VS overlaps with Chalice solutions, but with the slots you dedicated towards creatures like Rending Volley or GS

Except that Rending Volley and Grapeshot are great against things like D&T and Miracles (Canonist). I believe if you played Void Snare in your sideboard, in 100 matches you would use it less than 5 times. Which isn't something I'm looking for with my sideboard. I'd rather have cards I'd use more frequently and then sideboard in my answer to Chalice of the Void (Echoing Truth) to deal with Leyline of Sanctity. That slot would be used much more frequently and would save space.

EDIT: If you look at lists from the first page of MTGtop8, 4/20 (20%) lists play Leyline. Do you really want to dedicate a sideboard slot to a matchup (you're already 60/40) where they're only 20% to have it?
http://mtgtop8.com/archetype?a=33&meta=39&f=LE

[Lemnear]

We're still on the same page... Final Fortune is arguing that we side neither and just had more discard. Which I don't believe is a good choice. I think Telemin is best in the sideboard for Burning Wish and would rather bring in Tendrils as we already have a 5 mana card that wins the game in Ad Nauseam.

Admittingly a MD Telemin still would be the better natural draw.

I am sitting between Chairs on the general topic, because, I don't think running w/o wincon in the MD would be completely unreasonable (but still unnecessary), given that Grixis' Therapies are usually backbreaking by itself, no matter if they get followed up by Surgical or not. In the end we talk about boarding one card to evade the scenario

[Bryant Cook]

Admittingly a MD Telemin still would be the better natural draw.

I am sitting between Chairs on the general topic, because, I don't think running w/o wincon in the MD would be completely unreasonable (but still unnecessary), given that Grixis' Therapies are usually backbreaking by itself, no matter if they get followed up by Surgical or not. In the end we talk about boarding one card to evade the scenario

Burning Wish lacks a solid target for the storm mirror other than Dark Petition, which would require seven mana post-Wish. The odds of you naturally drawing Telemin Performance, being able to generate 5 mana, and it being good are way lower than it's effectiveness as a Burning Wish target.

But sure, it's better than Tendrils of Agony as a natural draw. That said, so would a ham sandwich.

[CroSS.24]

Please read my last two articles and then the sideboarding guide on the website.

Outdated information. If you didn't want to answer just don't say anything. I understand it is hard to keep up with the website, your job, traveling to tournaments, etc. but don't send me a wild goose chase. Just tell me you're working on the new sideboard guide, as you have stated already, and to be patient and read it when you post it. Every other interaction I've had with you in the past has been pleasant, even when we argued about the deck back in 2010. Not sure why you're cranky today (final fortune) but get some sleep from the terrible airplane and come back with some good information.

Edit: Sideboard guide is outdated. Last 2 posts are not.

[Bryant Cook]

Outdated information. If you didn't want to answer just don't say anything. I understand it is hard to keep up with the website, your job, traveling to tournaments, etc. but don't send me a wild goose chase. Just tell me you're working on the new sideboard guide, as you have stated already, and to be patient and read it when you post it. Every other interaction I've had with you in the past has been pleasant, even when we argued about the deck back in 2010. Not sure why you're cranky today (final fortune) but get some sleep from the terrible airplane and come back with some good information.

Edit: Sideboard guide is outdated. Last 2 posts are not.

<sarcasm>Thanks for the response!</sarcasm>

Even if the sideboard guide itself is outdated, there are paragraphs that explain the rationale behind siding out cards like Ponder (your original question) in specific match-ups. Perhaps you should do a little more homework instead of attacking me.

[Pelikanudo]

@Related to what you've been discussing lately and to whim may interest:

Related to S.E.: I've been playing it lately, mainly as an option to combat opposing C.T. which I believe it is now the card I'm more frightned of. I just still testing SE vs this, as I tested before Extirpate which proved to be good, as Ex. is just better vs Threapy than SE. now im just testing SE and see if it is good vs Therapyes... still no feedback about that.
Last day I faced Super Togores in a Storm Mirror and guess what? both played SE, I believe it is a good card in conjustion with 7 disacrds in base plus one if needed from side it is just a strategy which is pontentiated. also SE is good vs thos reanimateand likely other match ups...

Related to the not good resulst of Storm in GP: well I read the match ups Mr. B playd and saw some errors on his part, I believe he could have done better...
What impressed to me is the low hate as Permanent hate in side from the lists I saw... I mean in my area I now decided to play 2A.D. for this, and before i played 2IoK... but i didnt see more than 2 MM or E.C in GP las vegas lists, however lots of SE or flusters.... to be safe i still will play 2AD...

related to the list Mr. B. played, well, I wont play shitty D.G. ever never if i can play Xantid, thats simple, just because it is a better card for the same purpose - I just agree completely with Lem on this... I think TES is loosing the north with that list with Basic island... i wont play such a card in TES... if wasteland is a problem, well we have always faced wasteland with 0 problems and with a 0 basic lands manabase...

Still I wont play Xantid, but who knows... maybe i play it if i face too many Leulines or starting to loose to sneak.., the same applyed for V.S. which recently i took out.. as i dont want to be sisding in 1E.T. vs Sneak...

vs Grixis i'll play 1EtW no matters what. an argument for sure is he playing C.T.+ SE but other is that is a 6 mana playline. i exposed a scneario i won vs grixis which involved 3 duress 2 petals 1 mox and 1 EtW which won me the game as example...

vs ANT i just side in 2SE instead of a C.M. and EtW and im fine - you know im fine with that Togores hahaha ;)
related Rendering volley, well seemed to me at first an interesting option, but i saw it too specific for me... again for me A.D. is just more polivalent as i can side in also vs those Chalice decks. and you know what i think about D&T...

also for me Bribery > T.P. all days of the week vs those Sneaks / RB Renimate as I dont mnd those storm mirrors or Lands... also vs those ANT players, as i saw they side in 1 xantid or 1 D.C. so for 2nd and 3rd games is no more an option.
Well Mr. B. says B.W. lacks a good target vs storm mirror and thats absolutly wrong. usually the mirror tends to 2 directions: grinding or no more than 2nd or 3rd turn.

for the grinding plan B.W. can even target Meltdown (for you) or Spree for just killling all LEDs landed. or in my case duress or PiF, for me this has been super enough. dont trust T.P. vs Storm at all.

[Bryant Cook]

Homepage decklist, hand generator and sideboard guide have all been updated. I'll be working on the card choices page soon.

I've spoken to AJ Kerrigan, Alex Poling and Alexandre Richard about publishing articles in the upcoming weeks.

There's about to be some great content on The EPIC Storm coming. Stay tuned.

[Bryant Cook]

New article! TES vs ANT - 2017
http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-vs-ant-2017/

[cheerios]

New article! TES vs ANT - 2017
http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-vs-ant-2017/

Thanks for the article! As a player switching over from ANT to TES, I've found the article really helpful. This has reminded me of a similar article by Carsten Kotter before. I switched over from ANT to TES since there has been more chalice decks and DNT in my local meta.

Is there any reason on why the win rates for Sharldess BUG and Aluren were 50% or lower? Just curious since both are known to have bad combo matchups. Also, looks like the match up against Predictable Miracles isn't as good as what the miracles players say.