[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[Bryant Cook]

Thanks for the article! As a player switching over from ANT to TES, I've found the article really helpful. This has reminded me of a similar article by Carsten Kotter before. I switched over from ANT to TES since there has been more chalice decks and DNT in my local meta.

Is there any reason on why the win rates for Sharldess BUG and Aluren were 50% or lower? Just curious since both are known to have bad combo matchups. Also, looks like the match up against Predictable Miracles isn't as good as what the miracles players say.

Smaller sample sizes on both of those. Variance. It could be a number of things, but they're both fine match-ups.

[Ebonclaw]

Bryant,
Thanks for all the work you've put into writing your reports and articles, and taking the time to explain your reasoning behind your choices in addition to the documentation of the staggering amounts of data you've collected to compile them all. I really like the defense grid tech- I've made multiple sideboard adjustments now in addition to the maindecked island and am so far liking how the deck handles much better, and especially like the Defense Grid tech- to those who are unsure about it, I can only suggest you try it out at least. Flusterstorm and FoW are much worse when they cost 4 and 3 mana to cast.

When Abrade becomes legal, do you find yourself wanting to test it? I appreciate the versatility of the card, but since it's not wishable, this means it's got to go into the MD as a 2 or 3 of, and that means it's fighting against Rending Volley and Echoing Truth for SB slots. As you expressed in your previous posts, leyline is a problem we're unlikely to face- possible, but unlikely. Do you think there's more to be gained by playing Abrade over Echoing Truth? Lem has made the case for more artifact destruction being brought into the MB, and Abrade does so with the added bonus of being able to fry critters if nothing else, capable of taking on targets Rending Volley cannot. Rending Volley does the job of removing Thalia and Leo in the most cost effective way possible though, there's no doubt it's the best at what it does.

[Bryant Cook]

Bryant,
Thanks for all the work you've put into writing your reports and articles, and taking the time to explain your reasoning behind your choices in addition to the documentation of the staggering amounts of data you've collected to compile them all. I really like the defense grid tech- I've made multiple sideboard adjustments now in addition to the maindecked island and am so far liking how the deck handles much better, and especially like the Defense Grid tech- to those who are unsure about it, I can only suggest you try it out at least. Flusterstorm and FoW are much worse when they cost 4 and 3 mana to cast.

When Abrade becomes legal, do you find yourself wanting to test it? I appreciate the versatility of the card, but since it's not wishable, this means it's got to go into the MD as a 2 or 3 of, and that means it's fighting against Rending Volley and Echoing Truth for SB slots. As you expressed in your previous posts, leyline is a problem we're unlikely to face- possible, but unlikely. Do you think there's more to be gained by playing Abrade over Echoing Truth? Lem has made the case for more artifact destruction being brought into the MB, and Abrade does so with the added bonus of being able to fry critters if nothing else, capable of taking on targets Rending Volley cannot. Rending Volley does the job of removing Thalia and Leo in the most cost effective way possible though, there's no doubt it's the best at what it does.

Thanks, I'm glad the information is getting some use.

What you just described is why I decided not to make a comment on the card. It's certainly playable, but may not have a place in the sideboard.

[Polski_]

Another episode of the series TheEpicStorm.com: TES MATCHUP BATTLES! is up and this time we face UR Delver! Giving a breakdown of the matchup that we are likely to face in a tournament after its 2nd place at GP Vegas.

http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-matc...les-ur-delver/

Let me know your thoughts and opinions. Thank you.

- Alex Poling

[Bryant Cook]

AJ Kerrigan's latest: http://www.theepicstorm.com/fighting...-post-top-era/

[Bryant Cook]

TES mailbox is back:
http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-mailbox-10/

[cheerios]

TES mailbox is back:
http://www.theepicstorm.com/tes-mailbox-10/

Combo turn includes the turns that you generate goblins through empty right? This doesn't mean the turn you win?

[Bryant Cook]

Combo turn includes the turns that you generate goblins through empty right? This doesn't mean the turn you win?

Correct, as explained in the spreadsheet "Key", the same could be applied for the ANT deck as well.

[Plague Sliver]

My friend Vincent Cheung recently Top 8'd with TES.

Here's the report:

http://www.theepicstorm.com/riders-s...ment-07012017/

(I helped Vincent write it and can help answer questions. He's mostly a lurker here.)

We have some amazing big tournaments in Beijing and Guangzhou each year. Message me if you're interested!

[thefringthing]

Any thoughts on a drop-in replacement for Telemin Performance in a local metagame where it isn't appropriate? Likely opponents are Elves, Death & Taxes, Mono-Blue Omniscience, Grixis Delver, MUD, a couple of flavours of BUG (Goyf, Nic Fit, Aluren), and some kind of Eldrazi or Colourless 12-Post.

[Lemnear]

Any thoughts on a drop-in replacement for Telemin Performance in a local metagame where it isn't appropriate? Likely opponents are Elves, Death & Taxes, Mono-Blue Omniscience, Grixis Delver, MUD, a couple of flavours of BUG (Goyf, Nic Fit, Aluren), and some kind of Eldrazi or Colourless 12-Post.

Bribery? Void Snare?

[Jay_Gatz]

Any thoughts on a drop-in replacement for Telemin Performance in a local metagame where it isn't appropriate? Likely opponents are Elves, Death & Taxes, Mono-Blue Omniscience, Grixis Delver, MUD, a couple of flavours of BUG (Goyf, Nic Fit, Aluren), and some kind of Eldrazi or Colourless 12-Post.

Temporal Fissure

[Pelikanudo]

Hi. I just wanted to share my last experience in a local t.
I changed 5 cards in my 75 trying to do something different on an approach to a fetch manabase. I looked at TES lists in tc decks and found somthin i could try. It was 12 lands 3 scalding 4 poll 2 v.i. 2 u.s. 1 badlands. At first i was skeptical as 1 badlands is always bad. And fetching with 1 scalding will leave with 1 less land to find. Also as a derivderivatclusion i changed my baoyu in side for a tropical.
After 4 rounds in the local i just confirmed what i thought. It was absolutly wrong that manabase. Badlands was bad and tropical costed me the game. Also i was susceptible to stifle more often than not. As it seems that Grixis plays c.t in side and stifle in base or backwards.

I want to expose a reflexion and is the followin:
What we all TES players want is to have 7 disruption effects, 3 c.m. and 4 b.w. because these are the slots which can vary the most. And among these numbers the variation in directly related to the manabase numbers also - i mean - i would be extremely happy to play a feych manabase with 13 lands. BUT by doing this i will need to:
1. Take out 1 discard - c.t. - i cannot do this. Likely therapy is the card i want to see more vs fow decks
2. Take out 3rd c.m. - wrong
3. Take out b.w. well this maybe the card ill be taking out if i wanted to play fetch manabase. But i ve used lately b.w. for bribery g.s. etc. So many times thay i cannot coceive to take the 4th copy.

Whati want to put emphasis on is that im not playin gemstobes manabase because i just like it. The reason is thar that manabase is the correct manabase if i want to run tbe numbers of the cards above mentioned. As exmple and looking at the latest TES builds - ok. They have 13 fetch manabase HOWEVER they play only 3 c.t. - a number of a card i cannot conceive as of now to run less than 4. ANT runs 6. But the have pif. We cannot do such a thing vs a so fow meta infested. I personally for sure run 4th Duress in side for the same reason.

In my slow evolution to a better TES manabase ill likely try +3rd u.sea in the plave of 4th gemstone next time as the uniq scenario i really want to avoid is having 2 gemstones in my initial hand. Also i don want to be stifled and neither decremnt the odds of drawinh a land if previously i fetched with a LandThatShouldNotBeFetch.

I hope this thoutgh is shared by some.
Please letme know your thoughts.

EDIT: long time has elapsed since we included Dark Petition in our Sides, however I found that I really dont play the card much... scenarios are:
1) to find ETW to generate +1 Storm
2) to find a Sided in Tendrils
3) to find A.N. for the tough of 9 mana.

The question is: is really worth maintain D.P. in our Side now we even play cards like T.P. or Bribery? which are your reasoning?

[Final Fortune]

I've put in some time with Bryant's list and have a couple of thoughts,

Defense Grid: I think this card is ok if it resolves but bad when it doesn't resolve, the problem is 2cc disruption in a 13 land deck gets Dazed where 1cc disruption doesn't. Even when it did resolve, it wasn't difficult for Deathrite Shaman to give the opponent 3 mana for Force of Will and all of the Deathrite Shaman decks had discard either MD or SB that Duress would've dealt with. It feels even more linear now than Silence did then, and if it were a good card I think more people in the ANT thread would've already been playing it with 15 lands.

Island and Badlands: I don't like lands that don't produce combo colors or blue in theory, but Island and Badlands were interesting to play with in practice. The deck has a more stable manabase with Island in testing, but also had a slower fundamental turn in gold fishing. I think Island is a move further away from TES and towards ANT, in the sense that we have to decide how much explosiveness we want to sacrifice for stability, and consider what answers we want to play post-board and how those answers align with our first fetch target. I appreciated Island in the Wasteland/Stifle match ups and just accepted Badlands as a concession to 2 basics. It's awesone to have so many targets for your fetchlands, but awful to draw any land individually so it's interesting to note all of the corner cases.

Meltdown: It's worse than By Force because you'll see Chalice of the Void on 1 regardless and it's not cost efficient enough to deal with a Thorn of Amethyst or a Phyrexian Revoker.

Rending Volley: The card is REALLY good and the uncounterability more than makes up for it not killing Phyrexian Revoker or Eidilon. I was playing with 2 Rending Volley and a Deathmark and just ripped thru' D&T with no problems.

Grape Shot: I switched between Grape Shot and Death Mark in testing and the only thing I regretted was Death Mark couldn't kill Eidilon and wasn't as useful for killing that stupid Elf as I thought compared to reaching for Empty the Warrens. I'm actually looking at Chain Lightning right now, but needing RR is so much slower than having RB.

Void Snare: It does nothing well except answer Leyline of Sanctity, I had plenty of other removal to SB vs every match so the card is SUPER linear for just a SB silver bullet in a deck that is a terrible match up already.

Telemin vs Bribery: Totally comes down to how much Reanimator you see as the Show&Tell match still sucks with Telemin and the Lands and Storm match are still winnable without it.

MD Empty the Warrens: I am thinking about cutting it, Miracles is still a thing, SBs are prepared for it and MD Stifle is every where. It frees up a SB slot if you go back to the 3 Duress, 4 Cabal Therapy, 1 Thoughtseize configuration and the SB Grape Shot makes more sense as a Meddling Mage hedge. The card just seemed like a really meh draw by itself when Grixis has Stifle and having to wait a turn for the 5th mana a lot of the times just meant I could cast another discard or cantrip in between.

Echoing Truth: With the exception of Eidolon I got more value out of Hurkyls, do other people see enough U/r Delver to bother?

[Pelikanudo]

[QUOTE=Final Fortune;1017282]I've put in some time with Bryant's list and have a couple of thoughts,

Defense Grid:
Same thoutgh, althought i even ddnt tested it...

Island and Badlands:
Well, you play 13 lands me 12, just 1 differences land, I have likley the same perception as you, even i didn't tested at all this setting. but the real concern is the different approach you and me will take in order to confront mana denial decks:
1) I will do more like ponder or duress then wastelanded always trying to remain at least 1 land which produces the most versatile possible colors (i even dont play lands if i am gonna do nothing with them if i suspect wasteland!), then duress again or B.S. into win
2) you fetch for basic, stabilize and win, if you fetch with scalidng the we'll both have the same odds of finding another land (sad but true!), you are more susceptible even to stifle and with Island and Swamp landed (supposed to be your ideal scenario vs denial) you need C.M. on red or petal or 3rd fetch or volcanic for the B.W. win. are 13 lands enough for this? i dont think so.

I done 2) aproach with TNT long time ago and worked! but that was a shell with 15 lands, what intrigues me is that you sometimes will need to fetch for U.S. as this is the unique fetch you have and fetch for island will just cost you the game, moreless the same can be applicable for Swamp, althiugh this produces Combo mana. Then that scenario Plus the fact that you play among 13 lands 2 non blue producers is what preserves me from even try this... as for me 1) approach has been fine.

Meltdown:
dont agree meltodown kills mltiple chalice for 2 mana, and how many times have you faced thorn and won after that no matter the Side hater you have in side? for me 0 times. NOTE: I play SS

Rending Volley:
agree with that perception although i didnt test it but for sure i'll do at some point in TNT... I stick on Decays by the moment in TES...

Grape Shot:
that is such a good card... have in mind also that it can be casted by R, the other day i won a scenario with 2 chalice 1 Gaddock 1 Leyline becuase of Super G.S. AND absolyty needed it to be casted off R

Void Snare:
Agree took out and still dont regret it. BUT i wont take it out withouth leaving in side at least 1) an artifact hater 2) E.T.

Telemin vs Bribery:
Brubery for me all das of the week. i just hate that random factor and dont mind lands or mirrors.

MD Empty the Warrens:
MD all days f the weeks, speed up the deck a good percentage... take it out if you want for 2nd and 3rd game, but this card steal 1st games as no other...

Echoing Truth:
2 in my side by the moment and been great, if i had to evaluate scenarios where hurkils would have been better are 0.

[Final Fortune]

The problem with Chrome Mox not impriting for R mana consistently is why I'm not playing Island personally, I think Island and Badlands is the line between ANT's turn 3 and TES' turn 2 approach in terms of the fundamental turn in theory but in practice you rarely win on turn 2 vs control regardless. I don't find Gemstone Mine necessary at all in TES, when you fetch for Swamp you usually have either R mana in your hand or you don't need it.

The difference between Meltdown killing two Chalice of the Void and By Force killing them is 1 mana, which is doable, but Meltdown is worthless vs Thorn of Amethyst at 4 mana compared to By Force and it is a strictly worse SB card to bring into the MD. One of the reasons I like By Force and Death Mark is that they're good in either the SB or the MD where Meltdown and Grape Shot are only good in the SB. I find Hurkyl's Recall whiping Thorn of Amethyst and Chalice of the Void off the field at the same time to be pretty relevant, where Echoing Truth is only good vs 2xChalice of the Void and Eidilon.

The problem with the 7th discard, which I would like to have in the MD in order to make SB space, is that something in the MD has to give and Empty the Warrens is the one card that I SB out more than any other vs Island.dec There were a lot of 6 mana Empty the Warrens hands that had to become 7 mana Ad Nauseam hands because I Gitaxian Probed into a Stifle. I'll probably end up putting it back in at some point, as I tend to cut either the Empty the Warrens, the 3rd Chrome Mox or the 7th discard for one or the other - but I've gotten too used to 13, if not 14, lands to go back to only 12. If some of the T1 and T2 Goblins, go hands become T2 and T3 Ad Nauseam hands I'm ok with that as it's still a turn faster than ANT.

The problem with TNT is always going to be the conflict between Burning Wish and Cabal Ritual, running less than 4 Buning Wish and Cabal Rituals just feels so bad when you can't go off turn 2 and Burning Wish becomes an expensive Past in Flames because you missed your window for Goblins. TES is pretty much always going to be the Rite of Flame and Burning Wish deck for that reason, regardless of any other structural changes we may tinker with.

[Lemnear]

Some circling topic in this thread over the years have become cringeworthy to read over and over again. Having issues with 12 lands vs Stifle/Wasteland/Daze deck is a 2012 problem, which was solved by basic land(s) and/or 14 lands in the 75. There is no new ground to explore in that regards.

Removing the 3rd Mox and the EtW for the 7th Discard plus an additional land is a viable and balanced approach to tackle a tempo heavy meta

[MangoPunch]

Hey all!

I just published my first article up on the epicstorm.com on how to bait counterspells. Enjoy!

I'd lvoe any feedback you have! and let me know if there are any articles you'd like to see written!

http://theepicstorm.com/baiting-that-counterspell/

[Pelikanudo]

Some circling topic in this thread over the years have become cringeworthy to read over and over again. Having issues with 12 lands vs Stifle/Wasteland/Daze deck is a 2012 problem, which was solved by basic land(s) and/or 14 lands in the 75. There is no new ground to explore in that regards.

Removing the 3rd Mox and the EtW for the 7th Discard plus an additional land is a viable and balanced approach to tackle a tempo heavy meta

Great Lemnear.
I believe the next step is to try Lake of the dead after the inclusion of 1 more Swamps.
I've had 0 problems with that since 2010. Instead of just answering like this, you could answer the other question referring to the evaluation of DP in side, but whatever who matters, I just already knew your response. You know... I still feel love for you Lem.

EDIT:
@MAgoPunch: really didnt read more than 2 lines of that article... i really dont like feel I could write the soo big trees and subtrees scenarios in given context can occur. which is something it seems to be demonstrated in your article...It is all about Statistics and Context. I just love so much this deck...
@F.F. : Thats ok.
The point is that paying 3 mana under thorn for ByForce is not a scenario as said i will contemplate I mean I just ignore it - and of course neither 4 under meltdown.
On the other scenario with revoker you mention - well i have G.S. for him.
Well all things seem stated regarding TNT archetype, however when I played it I just felt like it was the best storm deck existing... note I've only played ANT in the era of M.Tutors AND with DD... maybe i just like B.W... BUT have in mind that that deck won a GP.

[Lemnear]

If you have no problems with 12 lands, then why are you crying about Stifle and land density?

No one ever suggested to run 12 lands including badlands in a metagame with resurging numbers of tempo decks, so why try to take various 14-land concepts totally out of context in terms of lands total and metagame? What's next in line? Running 10 fetches + 2 duals and then bitching about fetchlands being bad because you run out of targets?