Checked the rulings. You're right. Scrap the idea. It gold fished rather nicely under the false rules though.Originally Posted by Weebo
bruizar I still like your daretti stax idea better :) if only there was a faster wincon
I maindeck the emperion over the angel because it is the more robust threat and is harder to deal with. Angel comes in from the board in match ups where I also need my dismembers, since you can't cast dismember with emperion in play. This is mostly against berserk infect, but also maverick.
Contagion clasp is very good vs decks like elves and infect, it's important to lower your curve and have turn one answers. To this end, dismember is also very good vs infect, though I wouldn't run it against elves. I'm experimenting with contagion engine as well for elves, delver, dnt and berserk infect. So far it has been very good. I always find myself a turn short on Ugin vs elves but the engine at 6 is manageable. I can almost always hit 6 vs elves but not 8 before they go off.
Thanks for replying! Also, would you mind adding in 'food chain griffin' and 'oops all spells' sideboard strategies? :) (for completeness purposes)Glad you like it.
Your question: Yes I think you have the right deck for this meta. If you go more controllish burn and maybe merfolk will kill you. If you go more aggro/combo (with Goblin Welder for instance) loam and miracles will kill you.
So I guess you're right in the middle of these two and it fits.
Good luck!
Vs food chain he has 2 revokers, needle won't hit the food chain since it is a mana ability. The other stuff seems less than relevant.
Vs Oops all spells, add the thorns, trinisphere and pithing needle, you could add the revokers as well. You can pretty much remove any cards that aren't lodestone golem or trinisphere.
wow thanks for the response!
read your previous post as well. How many contagion clasps do you run? I'm assuming 3 or so since you want it in your opening hand.
Also regarding contagion engine, try to count the number of times you play it where it would have made a difference between life or death (had the engine been ugin instead). That data would help better I think.
I have a 2/3 split on clasp and dismember, so for Infect I have 5 viable turn one drops. I have the reverse of the data you are looking for, which is the number of games where I died on 7 mana with Ugin in hand, and wiping their board basically ends the game. I have only tested engine vs DnT and Infect but it has shown itself to be legit.
I am also removing Duplicant from my board, at least until Sneak and Show is a thing again, and replacing him with a triskilion, which also helps vs Delver, DnT, Elves and Infect, the last three of which can be difficult match ups without a dedicated sideboard plan.
I did a lot of infect testing on Friday using the following SB plan:
-2 Ugin +2 Contagion Clasp
-1 Platinum Emperion +1 Platinum Angel
-1 Blightsteel Colossus +3 Dismember
-1 Sundering Titan +1 Contagion Engine
-1 Trinisphere +1 Tsabos Web
-2 Wurmcoil Engine +1 Triskelion
-1 Spine of Ish Sah
The results were overwhelmingly positive. I spent the night on the draw and it didn't really matter at all. Having a lot of turn 1 interaction with infect is key.
vs Death and Taxes I SB:
-4 Trinisphere +2 Revoker
-1 Sundering Titan +2 Contagion Clasp
-1 Spine +1 Tsabos Web
-1 Wurmcoil +1 Contagion Engine
+1 Triskelion
This matchup is slower and Ugin is still good. Revoker has plenty of targets, clasp is there to kill enemy Revokers (also messes with vial), web can shut them down hard and engine is a board wipe. Trinisphere is horrible vs DnT, sundering titan is close to useless and Engine is generally better than spine.
vs Elves
-2 Ugin +2 Revoker
-1 Sundering Titan +2 Clasp
-1 Spine of Ish Sah +1 Contagion Engine
-1 Blightsteel +1 Triskelion
-1 Flex spot depends on play or draw
I take out the stuff that is too slow. Revoker is good to shut down Wirewood Symbiote, Heritage Druid, Deathrite Shaman in pretty much that order.
I like your ideas, but IMHO 3 dismember, 2 clasp + engine is too much creature hate and the SB seems weak against omnishow. I went to 2 tournaments with 40 players this week, in an unknown meta, and I ended up facing a lot of mentor miracles and omnishows. Contagion engine worked against mentor when I tried siding it in, but omnishow is a hard match.
One game I went T1 chalice that was fow'ed, he S&T and I showed trini, he went omniscience. Then delved 3 to dig for emrakul and wrecked me. For now, I gonna put spine back in the deck for lack of better answers.
I do have a lot of hate for the creature matchups, but in a year of testing in tournaments ranging from 15 people to 550 I have found that the real issues for this deck come from the creature lists. Miracles isn't a bad matchup, though the presence of mentor makes it a little harder. Storm is practically a free win. I used to run thorn of amethyst in the board for storm like others do, but the matchup is so lopsided that it was wasted slots, and the revokers I currently bring in pull duty in other matchups.
Regarding omnitell: the deck is busted, and even with spine you are in trouble. I played at the SCG 20k in DC last weekend and drew Omni round three. He show and telled omniscience to my spine. With spine trigger on the stack he just did his cast a million spells for free nonsense, trick binded spine and blew me out. Your best bet is to have trinisphere in play or land a chalice at 3, which they scoop to. That deck is beyond stupid, and I am pretty certain we are going to see bans come September to address it. We are one of the decks that are more naturally resistant to it, between 3sphere and chalice so I just roll with it. I don't think I actually sideboard anything against them.
At some point you just have to concede that a particular deck is over the top dumb, and there isn't a ton of hate that we can throw, beyond what is already in the starting 60, so I just write it off and concentrate on other matchups. Especially since the stuff I could board in vs omni (thorns or sphere of resistance) are cards I wouldn't bring in against anything other than storm, which is so laughably lopsided in our favor that I don't want to waste slots.
I see what you mean in the spine situation, although it hadn't happened to me (yet), it is bound to happen. I'm also not a fan of thorn for the same reasons.
DTT is also ridiculously good and steal games many times, but Relic of Progenitus is too slow and Tormod is just useless, so of the blue decks, I only side it in against grixis control. Do you have any suggestions to answer it?
If you're going to accept defeat against a deck and not sideboard for it, you're better off not laying down to the most dominant combo deck in the format, and pray you don't hit it. You're better off boarding for omni tell with thorns, and having it randomly help you with storm, oops, and even helps against the pyro or monastery decks that spam spells to puke out dudes.
Run the spread of blanket sideboard stuff. I run 2x pithing needle, 2x phyrexian revoker, 2x tormods crypt, 2x thorn of amethyst.
Also, on the argument of platinum angel vs platinum emperion, run 1, the other or even both. Both are good silver bullets for different scenarios. Yes, angel stops the alternate win decks, like infect, painter grind, or like oops, and emperion is more versatile and usable against, burn, and other tempo decks. Both are for defensive purposes mainly, and shouldn't be treated as a threat. If they swing for the win, that's a bonus. I've won by 2x metalworker beatdown several times, doesn't mean that should be their main role. I personally run emperion, because it is desired in more circumstances than angel.
I agree. Never accept defeat! Your sideboard is there for the bad matchups in the first place. Especially those that come by often like omni. With a pack of thorn added this matchup could be favored.
And I'm not that sure they'll ban it. There are answers for it. I think reanimator hits them like 80% of the matchups with all of their discards, forces and..... iona!
On the angel/empirion discussion: I guess it depends on the meta. But the difference is small. I've played both many times, very rarely it makes a difference (lost once with emperion against infect and once with angel against burn, so also there it's evenish)
I've never played these two decks and haven't tested against them as well so can't help you there, but what Rikter says seems to make sense. Food chain hates revoker!
Why would u use clasp over ratchet bomb? really. ratchet is som much more versatile.
Woah there! Who said anything about accepting defeat? Laying down? The matchup isn't great but we already maindeck 12 cards that are really good against them and the stuff I would board in is so narrow that I'd rather not bother. Sure, Omnitell is the dominant combo deck, but as a %age of the field Creature Decks>>>>> Omnitell.
Needle conflicts with Chalice on 1, so I don't run it. For Eternal Weekend I'm swapping out Tormod's Crypt for Faerie Macabre, for surprise factor and so Reanimator can't counter it. Not a fan of Thorn. I used to run all the cards you mention but only the Revokers have stuck.
Ratchet bomb is too slow for what I need it to do, which is to answer something on turn 1, and to answer something for only 2 mana. Against DnT it can be really important to not spend 3 turns before you can kill a Phyrexian Revoker, and it needs to be Clasp and not Serrated Arrows because it's very realistic that you won't have the mana to get to something else. Against infect, if you don't have a way to kill a glistener elf turn 1, you might not get another turn to kill it. There are also random interactions off of proliferate, which are not a reason to play the card, but do exist and can be incredibly relevant, most notably aether vial on 3 on the stack, proliferate. It could also be relevant with your own Chalice of the Void, Ugin or Triskelion.
I run ratchet bomb, its good for killing flipped delvers and tokens, but it serves a much different role than Clasp.
[QUOTE=Rikter;899399]Woah there! Who said anything about accepting defeat? Laying down? The matchup isn't great but we already maindeck 12 cards that are really good against them and the stuff I would board in is so narrow that I'd rather not bother. Sure, Omnitell is the dominant combo deck, but as a %age of the field Creature Decks>>>>> Omnitell.
Needle conflicts with Chalice on 1, so I don't run it. For Eternal Weekend I'm swapping out Tormod's Crypt for Faerie Macabre, for surprise factor and so Reanimator can't counter it. Not a fan of Thorn. I used to run all the cards you mention but only the Revokers have stuck.
Needle only conflicts with chalice, where chalice on 1 matters. I'm still x-1 vs RG lands by going needle on stage, then chalice on 2. Chalice on 1 is annoying for them, but chalice on 2 shuts them down. Also, needle helps vs the elves match some, where you don't care what pieces of hate you get, you just need answers.
[QUOTE=BlackHawkX9;899549]Thats true about RG lands, where shutting off fire and loam is big time. I may end up running needle again at some point, for now though vs lands I am on the chalice, tsabo's web and faerie macabre plan.
a couple questions:
against elves, what do you name with revoker/needle first? what if you draw a second?
against lands, if I play needle, and he changes his thespians stage into some other land in response (lets say a forest), should I name "thespians stage" or "forest" when needle resolves?
1) Against elves our prime two targets to shut off are going to be wirewood symbiote (endless recursion of reclamation sage is bad news, endless blanking an attacker is bad news, endless recursion of visionary is bad news) or heritage druid, which makes it harder for them to go off with glimpse. Your sub targets are going to be either deathrite shaman or birchlore ranger, in that order, so you can either keep them off of life gain (drain is less relevant since the only instants/sorceries are their Orders and Glimpses, and if those resolve DRS is the least of your worries) or keep them off colors and hurt their Glimpse chain. Revoker is better than needle vs elves because Revoker doesn't nombo with Chalice at 1, and Revoker hits mana abilities like Heritage Druid.
As far as what you name first, it's sort of a toss up. Both symbiote and heritage druid will wreck your day, and they are both 4 of so it's equally likely they have one or the other. I would lean towards naming Heritage druid, since they can smash you the turn they play it. They can use wirewood same turn as well, but the Druid is more likely to end the game before you can drop Revoker in response. Your board state and lock pieces will also factor in; if you have trinisphere out you would lean more towards Revoking wirewood in the dark since 3sphere is already doing work against druid.
2) In the scenario described above against Lands, you would name Forest if the guy copies a Forest in response to you playing needle, and you want to shut off that particular stage. The relevant rule is below:
706.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object’s characteristics . The “copiable values” are the values derived from the text printed on the object (that text being name, mana cost, color indicator, card type, subtype, supertype, rules text, power, toughness, and/or loyalty)
Piloted This Monstrosity to a 3-0 Draw for last night at the Mead Hall in Minneapolis. Only dropped one game all night. Played BUG Nic Fit, Storm, & Tezzerator Drew with other 3-0 player on Omnitell to end my night with one loss to Storm.
__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
CREATURES (18)
1 Platinum Angel
4 Metalworker
3 Wurmcoil Engine
4 Lodestone Golem
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blightsteel Colossus
4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
SPELLS (17)
4 Trinisphere
1 Lightning Greaves
4 Chalice Of The Void
1 Staff Of Domination
1 Spine Of Ish Sah
4 Grim Monolith
2 Coercive Portal
PLANESWALKERS (2)
2 Ugin, The Spirit Dragon
LAND (23)
4 City Of Traitors
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
4 Vesuva
3 Wasteland
4 Ancient Tomb
SIDEBOARD (15)
1 Steel Hellkite
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Lightning Greaves
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Pithing Needle
1 Witchbane Orb
1 Karn Liberated
1 Contagion Engine
2 Thorn Of Amethyst
1 Sundering Titan
1 Spine Of Ish Sah
1 Bottled Cloister
Round 1.
Bug Nicfit
Game 1. T1 He probes me, then casts cabal therapy jerking my chalice of the void from my hand. I draw a second one like a champ and play it on my turn. I follow that up with double lodestone golem for the win.
Game 2. He gets a much faster hand and yanks my chalice followed by 2 veteran explorers which he uses to therapy away my hand. My land drops are, Cloudpost, Cloudpost, cloudpost, Vesuva. He drops a turn 4 Baleful strix. I drop a turn 4 Ugin. I wipe his board and drop a turn 5 hard casted Blightsteel.
Round 2.
Storm
Game 1. I lose the die roll. He goes Turn 1. Make 8 goblins. I scoop because my hand of Chalice, 3 ball isn't gonna get the job done in this situation.
Game 2. Chalice, thorn , Wurmcoil gets the job done.
Game 3. I'm expecting the same thing that happened game 1 to happen now in game 3. He mulls to 4 keeps a no lander, probes. wiffs on the probe to draw him a land. I chalice, followed by 3 ball, followed by Lodestone. GG's!
Round 3.
Tezzerator
Game 1. Turns out Ugin is stupid good against an army of blue thopters.
Game 2. he pithing needles ugin after I stabilize with him. I proceed to forgemaster my spine of ish sah a bunch of times. Get a platinum angel in play. Miss a whole bunch of opportunities to probably end the game way sooner than it did end. I know I definitely forgemastered 3 artifacts and never went and grabbed something from my deck at one point. I was nervous because I was on camera. At one point in time, he has 30 life and 30 thopters but I have angel in play. I draw ugin, forge the spine, play the spine, blow up needle Following turn play ugin. Wipe his board forge for Blightsteel GG's
Round 4.
Omnitell
We split because Jason wants to drink beer, and I want to go to bed.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Cards That were allstars:
UGIN is completely stupid. Every time I cast him, it sealed the deal for me without question.
Coercive portal. I played this card in the tezzerator match up and it was completely busted. Probably half the reason why I won. was able to draw my threats way faster and take control of the match that way.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote
