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Thread: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

  1. #3801

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by MGB View Post
    Ok, let me rephrase the question:

    Is Eldrazi Aggro the better Chalice of the Void / Ancient Tomb deck in the format right now?

    Because the #1 reason to play MUD was simply to play Chalice of the Void + Ancient Tomb. It just so happened that MUD, up til this point, was probably the best Chalice of the Void + Ancient Tomb deck. Now we have to ask ourselves, if we want to play a Chalice of the Void + Ancient Tomb deck, if just playing Eldrazi is better than playing MUD's motley assortment of creatures.
    Eldrazi is currently well positioned in the meta. I can't say the same three months from now when the meta shifts. Unfortunately, a lot of hate against Eldrazi is good against us too, even more so like Hurkyl's Recall. I think once the meta shifts back with more Burn, Painter, and Miracles, MUD will have the advantage. Eldrazi also just dies to Blood Moon and Moat against the control decks. At SCG Philly, I noticed that there was a ton of Delver decks of all varieties, and they just get crushed by Eldrazi. Canadian Delver simple can't beat Eldrazi (none of which made Day 2), but are great against us.

    Quote Originally Posted by akatsuki View Post
    Hey all,

    Bob Huang here. I played MUD at SCG Philly and went a disappointing 3-3. Before that though, I cashed 4 consecutive tournaments with "Portal MUD"

    I had two lists:
    Thanks for sharing your lists. One thing that I like about is the lower mana curve, which I had been advocating for a while. And yes, Portal is the real deal. I have several in my SB against the grindy match-ups. I still prefer my singleton Staff of Nin in the MD though. I going to be off of MUD for a little bit due to all the Eldrazi hate, which is also good against us.

    Quote Originally Posted by Drake0525 View Post
    Chris Van Meter published an article to SCG about the Eldrazi deck. One of the things he mentioned was that the some of the Eldrazi decks had success using Jitte to break the mirror match. Is that something we in MUD might be able to try, maybe in the sideboard?
    Jitte is good. I have had success with it in MD and SB. In a meta filled with DnT, I think playing Jitte, Batterskull, and two Phyrexian Metamorph is also correct. But I don't think we need Jitte to beat Eldrazi. Our creature quality tends to be better. Even Lodestone Golem can trade with Reality Smasher.

    Quote Originally Posted by Airwave View Post
    I'm confident this (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post920070) list will crush them. But haven't tested it yet so I'm not sure. Next to that, I'm not entirely sure how it will perform in this "new" meta though. It's a litte fragile on Wasteland maybe, depending on available artifact boost mana. I guess this list needs one Crucible main nowadays.
    Oh. I totally missed this list on my MtG break. Looks neat. I like that Cavern of Souls works for both Stoneforge Mystic and Goblins Welder.

    Quote Originally Posted by darkgh0st View Post
    Stax is still very effective. When you resolve maindeck E.Bridges game 1, a lot of decks just scoop. I played MUD instead of Stax tonight and definitely felt like I should have played stax. My next test is to incorporate Thought-Knot Seer into Stax for more disruption and quicker clock.
    I like TKS in both my MUD and Stax builds. It works well in Stax to increases my threat density to 16 (LSG, Mutavault, Mishra's Factory). As much as I like Stax though, I think it loses to itself more often than most decks, even MUD, and is more susceptible to hate cards like RIP.

  2. #3802
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Wizards announced some changes on double face cards: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...trad-mechanics
    For us, what changes is Ratchet Bomb/Powder Keg became worse against delver.

  3. #3803

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverflame View Post
    Wizards announced some changes on double face cards: http://magic.wizards.com/en/articles...trad-mechanics
    For us, what changes is Ratchet Bomb/Powder Keg became worse against delver.
    Actually, I thought it was better in a way too. You can now blow up flipped and unflipped delvers, and deathrite at the same time.

  4. #3804

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    On the bright side, I no longer have to blow up Chalice vs Delver. It also catches Guide, Swiftspear, Mongoose, and DRS in the process. Sounds like a buff, aside from being a turn slower.

    Edit: darkgh0st sniped me.

  5. #3805
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by L10 View Post
    On the bright side, I no longer have to blow up Chalice vs Delver. It also catches Guide, Swiftspear, Mongoose, and DRS in the process. Sounds like a buff, aside from being a turn slower.

    Edit: darkgh0st sniped me.
    Maybe I'm just a pessi-mystic, a fatalistic, but I hadn't thought about that. I guess come in handy if the investigate mechanic ends up being useful too.
    (I doubt anyone will get the obscure quote)
    Last edited by Silverflame; 03-09-2016 at 05:48 PM.

  6. #3806
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Hey everyone! I regret to report my metagame has, at last, been invaded by Eldrazi. Nasty deck. I actually won the round with Canadian Threshold, albeit by the skin of my teeth. While this doesn't change my desire to build MUD and make it work, I do have to taylor my build to handle the match-up. This is the decklist I'd like to try. I have nearly all the pieces I need.

    4x City of Traitors
    4x Ancient Tomb
    4x Cloudpost
    4x Glimmerpost
    4x Wasteland
    2x Vesuva
    3x Cavern of Souls

    4x Metalworker
    4x Lodestone Golem
    4x Wurmcoil Engine
    4x Kuldotha Forgemaster
    1x Steel Hellkite
    1x Sundering Titan

    4x Chalice of the Void
    4x Grim Monolith
    3x Coercive Portal
    2x Trinisphere
    2x Relic of Progenitus

    2x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon

    Sideboard:
    2x Sphere of Resistance
    1x Coercive Portal
    2x Ensnaring Bridge
    2x Gravedigger’s Cage
    2x Phyrexian Revoker
    2x Pithing Needle
    2x Ratchet Bomb
    1x Platinum Emperion
    1x All is Dust

    It is still a work in progress, to be sure. There were a lot of choices to make as far as what to include, especially in the sideboard. Torpor Orb would be interesting sideboard tech against a number of decks in the meta. Gravedigger's Cage, I chose because I can fetch it with Forgemaster, but I'm not sure running that would be preferable to Surgical Extraction. I also realize that Ensnaring Bridge might be considered unorthodox - that was discussed earlier in the thread - but it might be a necessary inclusion against Eldrazi.

    I would appreciate any feedback or suggestions that may occur to you. Thanks guys!

  7. #3807

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Not entirely MUD but: Colorless Stompy LGS FNM report

  8. #3808

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Drake0525, is the Relic at main to hedge against the Canadian match-up? If so, I'd rather have Ratchet Bomb. The scariest creature in their deck, after all, is Delver. Relic can be a bit narrow. If you meta is filled with Canadian and Eldrazi, it may be wise to swap Sundering Titan with Platinum Emperion, a card both decks can't deal with. Otherwise, your list is solid.

    darkgh0st, I like you take on the stompy list. But with your list, I think having a number of Eldrazi Temples would be useful, especially since you have LSG.

  9. #3809

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by L10 View Post
    Drake0525, is the Relic at main to hedge against the Canadian match-up? If so, I'd rather have Ratchet Bomb. The scariest creature in their deck, after all, is Delver. Relic can be a bit narrow. If you meta is filled with Canadian and Eldrazi, it may be wise to swap Sundering Titan with Platinum Emperion, a card both decks can't deal with. Otherwise, your list is solid.

    darkgh0st, I like you take on the stompy list. But with your list, I think having a number of Eldrazi Temples would be useful, especially since you have LSG.
    Guess Eldrazi might deal with Emperion if they somehow manage to find 2x Dismember and have enough life to cast them.
    "Everything is better topless"

  10. #3810
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by L10 View Post
    Drake0525, is the Relic at main to hedge against the Canadian match-up? If so, I'd rather have Ratchet Bomb. The scariest creature in their deck, after all, is Delver. Relic can be a bit narrow. If you meta is filled with Canadian and Eldrazi, it may be wise to swap Sundering Titan with Platinum Emperion, a card both decks can't deal with. Otherwise, your list is solid.
    To continue what L10 said, with how the flip cards will work in the near future, the Delver will be considered CMC 1 at all times, which means that Ratchet Bomb on 1 kills them as well as Mongoose.
    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    Can't understand wanting the new new border if you have a choice, for any reason. You have to be a casual or have rickets.
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  11. #3811
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by L10 View Post
    Drake0525, is the Relic at main to hedge against the Canadian match-up? If so, I'd rather have Ratchet Bomb. The scariest creature in their deck, after all, is Delver. Relic can be a bit narrow. If you meta is filled with Canadian and Eldrazi, it may be wise to swap Sundering Titan with Platinum Emperion, a card both decks can't deal with. Otherwise, your list is solid.
    Actually, I hadn't really thought of the match-up with Canadian Threshold. I was thinking more in terms of the fact that Relic shuts down Tarmogoyf, Deathrite Shaman, Snapcaster Mage, Delve creatures like Gurmag Angler and Tasigur never get into the battlefield, Relic wrecks Reanimator and Dredge, and it should be problematic for Lands as well. I figured it was worth trying, but at this point, I really only have theory to go on. Does Ratchet Bomb have wider applications than that? If it does, than the right thing to do is maindeck the Ratchet Bombs and sideboard the Relics.

    I appreciate the encouragement! There are a number of different Delver variants kicking around the meta at any given time. I will probably end up running Platinum Emperion in the main to deal with them.
    Last edited by Drake0525; 03-13-2016 at 01:05 AM.

  12. #3812
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Ratchet Bomb also works decently vs D&Ts, on 1 it blows up one of the most important cards... AEther Vial. At 2 It hits most of the decks powerhouses and Jitte, at 3 it hits Swords of X&Y, Mirran Crusader, Brimaz, and Vyrn Wingmare if they're in that list.

    Works on a lot of Elves at 1

    Can work on Burn to get Goblin Guide, Grim Lavamancer, but I wouldn't side it in, just if you happen to have 1 main board.

    Can hit Miracles, but MUD already has a great match up there, though Mentor makes it a little faster than we like.
    Quote Originally Posted by nedleeds View Post
    Can't understand wanting the new new border if you have a choice, for any reason. You have to be a casual or have rickets.
    Cockatrice: EMFry

  13. #3813

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by L10 View Post
    darkgh0st, I like you take on the stompy list. But with your list, I think having a number of Eldrazi Temples would be useful, especially since you have LSG.
    I think from my list, you can either go with the additional mana rocks or go with Eldrazi Temple. I went with the mana rocks for Blood Moon protection, potential extra explosiveness, and since Mishra's Factory and Rishadan Port have double purpose, I didn't mind drawing more mana than usual.

  14. #3814
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Hey guys. I have a couple of other questions about card choices.

    - I felt when gold-fishing the deck that early turns tended to be inconsistent. If Chalice or Grim Monolith was in the opening hand, the deck hit the ground fast. The slower openings had no action at all in the first 2 turns. My mana curve isn't high relative to the other lists in the thread, so is that normal for the deck? Should I consider running some lower CMC cards?

    - Following on from that first question, how good is Warping Wail in MUD? I've been seeing chatter about it, but not much with regards to this deck.

    - Is there ever a situation where we would want expedition maps or something to give us extra consistency with land? It's been a long time since I've played without fetches.

  15. #3815
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by Drake0525 View Post
    - I felt when gold-fishing the deck that early turns tended to be inconsistent. If Chalice or Grim Monolith was in the opening hand, the deck hit the ground fast. The slower openings had no action at all in the first 2 turns. My mana curve isn't high relative to the other lists in the thread, so is that normal for the deck? Should I consider running some lower CMC cards?

    - Following on from that first question, how good is Warping Wail in MUD? I've been seeing chatter about it, but not much with regards to this deck.

    - Is there ever a situation where we would want expedition maps or something to give us extra consistency with land? It's been a long time since I've played without fetches.
    A few thoughts:
    - Unless you're leading off with a Cloudpost, you usually should be making a turn 1 play. I'd say you should always have a turn 2 play. One of the deck's strength is controlling the flow of the game by repeatedly making must-answer plays; if you aren't making them, you're losing control of the game. However, I think this has less to do with tweaking your list and more to do with the hands you keep. Mulligans are immensely important in MUD, so don't be afraid to mull to 6 or 5 if that means you'll be making land drops and plays every turn. I'm experimenting with a personal mulligan rule, in which I won't keep a hand that can't make at least 3 mana between 2 lands; in theory, that positions me decently to always have plays.

    - I haven't tried it, but it looks strong.

    - I don't think so, as Map is the best colorless land tool and it gets countered by our Chalices. I'd highly recommend 2+ Coercive Portal to help with consistency.

  16. #3816

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by Drake0525 View Post
    Hey guys. I have a couple of other questions about card choices.

    - I felt when gold-fishing the deck that early turns tended to be inconsistent. If Chalice or Grim Monolith was in the opening hand, the deck hit the ground fast. The slower openings had no action at all in the first 2 turns. My mana curve isn't high relative to the other lists in the thread, so is that normal for the deck? Should I consider running some lower CMC cards?

    - Following on from that first question, how good is Warping Wail in MUD? I've been seeing chatter about it, but not much with regards to this deck.

    - Is there ever a situation where we would want expedition maps or something to give us extra consistency with land? It's been a long time since I've played without fetches.

    1) You need to be doing something on the first 2 turns, assuming you dont get Wastelanded, against most decks.

    2) I found warping wail to be great. The last tournament I played it in I wound up using all three modes. The card is never completely dead, and has a lot of utility. I think it's the real deal.

    3) Anything at CMC 1, and that conflicts with chalice, is generally going to be a no-go. Only possible exception I could see is Grafdigger's cage out of the board.

  17. #3817

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Warping Wail is really good. I have 2 in the board. Boarded it in vs Death and Taxes. They have Cataclysm which can be devastating but also I killed Revokers at least a couple of times. I definitely recommend it. Yeah, being able to actually interact (well aside from Dismember) is awesome. Not sure if it's enough to fight Elves but certainly helps.

    And I'm with Stuart, Coercive Portal is good too. I only play 1 main but I do also play 1 Staff of Nin and 2 Staff of Domination.


    Did a little bit of testing yesterday at a weekly tournament. Combo'd twice with Metalworker + Staff of Domination. Also lived the dream vs Death and Taxes in a test match (we split in 4th round). Turn 1 Metalworker off of a Petal and Tomb. Turn 2. Ugin. Turn 3. Staff of Domination with 3 artifacts in hand. gg.

    Do any of you play Dismember in board? I have a couple in the board as mostly for the Infect matchup which I find pretty bad for us.

  18. #3818

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by Wilkin View Post
    Warping Wail is really good. I have 2 in the board. Boarded it in vs Death and Taxes. They have Cataclysm which can be devastating but also I killed Revokers at least a couple of times. I definitely recommend it. Yeah, being able to actually interact (well aside from Dismember) is awesome. Not sure if it's enough to fight Elves but certainly helps.

    And I'm with Stuart, Coercive Portal is good too. I only play 1 main but I do also play 1 Staff of Nin and 2 Staff of Domination.


    Did a little bit of testing yesterday at a weekly tournament. Combo'd twice with Metalworker + Staff of Domination. Also lived the dream vs Death and Taxes in a test match (we split in 4th round). Turn 1 Metalworker off of a Petal and Tomb. Turn 2. Ugin. Turn 3. Staff of Domination with 3 artifacts in hand. gg.

    Do any of you play Dismember in board? I have a couple in the board as mostly for the Infect matchup which I find pretty bad for us.

    Wail is the truth against elves! You can't just rely on Warping Wail to get it done, but the card kills almost all their dudes, and counters all their critical spells. The 1 mana ramp dude is less likely to be used, but I can't even begin to tell you how many times I have lost to elves because I was 1 mana off of Ugin and had to pass back to them.

    Dismember is definitely in my board (x3). I like it vs Infect, Death and Taxes and some BUG lists. Basically if the list doesn't interact with your life total or plays swords to plowshares as its removal then you want to have Dismember. It's not unusual for DnT to board out mom anyways, plus they will usually give you back some of your Dismember life because of swords.

  19. #3819

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    What do you think of this list that I'm trying?

    1 Blightsteel Colossus
    1 Phyrexian Metamorph
    1 Platinum Emperion
    1 Sundering Titan
    3 Wurmcoil Engine
    4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
    4 Lodestone Golem
    4 Metalworker
    1 Karn Liberated
    2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
    1 Lightning Greaves
    1 Spine of Ish Sah
    2 Coercive Portal
    2 Trinisphere
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Grim Monolith
    2 Cavern of Souls
    2 Vesuva
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Cloudpost
    4 Glimmerpost
    4 Wasteland
    side
    3 Thorn of Amethyst
    2 Phyrexian Revoker
    1 Steel Hellkite
    2 Ratchet Bomb
    1 Orbs of Warding
    3 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Duplicant
    1 Crucible of Worlds
    1 Ensnaring Bridge

  20. #3820

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by caprino View Post
    What do you think of this list that I'm trying?

    1 Blightsteel Colossus
    1 Phyrexian Metamorph
    1 Platinum Emperion
    1 Sundering Titan
    3 Wurmcoil Engine
    4 Kuldotha Forgemaster
    4 Lodestone Golem
    4 Metalworker
    1 Karn Liberated
    2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
    1 Lightning Greaves
    1 Spine of Ish Sah
    2 Coercive Portal
    2 Trinisphere
    4 Chalice of the Void
    4 Grim Monolith
    2 Cavern of Souls
    2 Vesuva
    4 Ancient Tomb
    4 City of Traitors
    4 Cloudpost
    4 Glimmerpost
    4 Wasteland
    side
    3 Thorn of Amethyst
    2 Phyrexian Revoker
    1 Steel Hellkite
    2 Ratchet Bomb
    1 Orbs of Warding
    3 Tormod's Crypt
    1 Duplicant
    1 Crucible of Worlds
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    The main deck looks pretty reasonable to me, although I would choose to play Karn out of the board and Hellkite in the main. I bring Karn in to handle stuff like null rod or needle, in game 1 Ugin can take care of the usual suspects either via bolt or wipe, but Ugin isn't great against rod and needle, so thats where Karn comes in. Having Hellkite main is invaluable game 1 because he is a legitimate forgemaster target that can get rid of problem permanents and even wipe the other guys board.

    The only other main deck change revolves around Platinum Emperion vs Platinum Angel. I used to run Emperion Main and Angel out of the board. Angel would swap for Emperion when I brought in Dismembers. I am too tight on space these days to carry both, and I am not taking Dismember out of the board, so Angel is main. Emperion is more resilient and harder to kill, but Angel is still good.

    Regarding the sideboard, I see lists playing thorns...I've never been big on it. Between chalice, 3sphere, lodestone and revokers out of the board you should be good to handle most combo lists. What are the really in there for, storm? Revoker is solid hate. I play 3 revokers, they work fine vs storm and sneak and show, and they are really helpful vs Death and Taxes and Miracles.

    Orbs of warding is another one...I could see it being better than Witchbane Orb vs Storm in case they try and Empty you, but my guess is this is primarily in for the burn matchup? If you're more concerned with Burn I would probably run the Witchbane because it is faster, but as a 1 of it's hard to find and in most cases you should be able to Forgemaster out something better anyways. I generally don't play cards specifically for storm, the MU is so lopsided that I think it is pointless to waste SB slots on things just for storm.

    I prefer some number of Dismember in the sideboard, I have found it to be an invaluable card vs. infect, death and taxes, and now eldrazi.

    The singleton Crucible I am less than impressed with. Any 1-of needs to be a legit Forgemaster target. I'm not sold on Crucible as that target. The rest looks fine, although I like to play Faerie Macabre instead of Crypt just because Reanimator can't counter it and you can play it turn 0. Crypt is a bit better vs lands though.

    All in all it's built well enough to win matches, I would only make some minor changes, and even those might not be appropriate if your meta is very small and you know it well; my comments are in the context of building a deck to run in a 100+ person field.

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