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Thread: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

  1. #4701
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by malfie13 View Post
    So. My buddy tells me we've been 5-0ing leagues. I'm to write up some thoughts on how to sb in a new reality where we are a t1 deck. I cold called it when I heard about the mulligan rule. I was correct.
    You playing MUD in Niagara anyway? I am feeling pretty good about it regardless of the old rule still in play.

  2. #4702
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Its double Easter. So I'm with my family, as it is. Such scrappy timing. I'm Greek so my Easter is literally a week after Catholic Easter. I would be playing mud tho. Yes. It's well positioned.
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  3. #4703

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Did you see Prismite spoiled in war of the spark?

    2/1 artifact creature for cmc 2 that you can pay 2 and not tap to add a mana of any colour. Seems like an excellent way to add a colour for cards like goblin welder that you can also beat some face with. You can also cast it uncounterable with cavern of souls if you’ve named golem

  4. #4704

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Malfie I like your experimental list.

    Why the razormane masticore?

    I think the sideboard may need some work. Chalice seems awkward to get with karn.

    Maybe another spine in the sideboard would be solid. Karn needs to be as toolboxy as possible.

    Are you going to Atlanta? If so I want to buy you a beer.

  5. #4705
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by 1ron View Post
    Malfie I like your experimental list.

    Why the razormane masticore?

    I think the sideboard may need some work. Chalice seems awkward to get with karn.

    Maybe another spine in the sideboard would be solid. Karn needs to be as toolboxy as possible.

    Are you going to Atlanta? If so I want to buy you a beer.
    Razormane is so boss. You get to kill almost everything that relevent blocker, and leovold who is currently irrelevant. Also stonewalls a gurmag angler and can kill a gris daddy if they block and it has 3 damage on it.

    Edit: Will always take a free beer!

    Further edits: I ran razormane in the sb in every event I've done well in. It does also pitch cards behind a bridge and block a reality smasher before you have one. Its just a good utility knife. Still not sold on anything tho. I'll figure it out as I go before ATL and VA
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  6. #4706
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Here's the promised advice vs current possible hate from my past experiences in open play and in my meta where people absolutely hate me playing mud to the extent that one player threatened to start running the blue enchantment that gives all artifacts an upkeep cost of (2). Suffice to say, I have experiences, lol.

    Legacy MUD SB Advice:

    MB Tech that we already worry about exists. Goblins are annoying, of course, because of tutors, Trashmaster and Cratermaker, often main board, and the fact that any gobbo pieces already cost excess of 1, and they run Aether Vial if they go first. And they run Wasteland, Risidan Port, and Blood Moon, sometimes.

    Other Common Issues Include:
    Abrupt Decay (Main and Side in Turbo Depths and other GB Based Decks) (GB, and Uncounterable)
    Fiery Confluence (RR2)
    Goblin Trashmaster (RR2, also a lord and no acrtual mana cost to activate, but can be needled [CBN])
    Flickerwisp (WW1, and can "reset chalice on 1" to zero)
    Wasteland and Rishidan Port
    Phyrexian Revoker (2) (Usually on Metalworker or Kuldotha Forgemaster. Can Neeedle anything but Lands, and does hit mana abilities).

    Most of the important hate that will come in first is two mana. I am going to start with that, so remember it. Some of the most common sb tech has included, traditionally:

    Null Rod (2)
    Hurkyl's Recall (U1)
    Abrade (R1)
    Shattering Spree (R) (Replicate)
    Ancient Grudge (R1)
    Goblin Cratermaker (R1) (CBN)
    Ratchet Bomb (2)
    Leonin Relic-Warder (D and T) (WW)
    Assassin's Trophy (GB) (Assasssin's Trophy IS NOT Abrupt Decay!! It can be countered!!)
    Throne of Geth (2)
    Phyrexian Revoker (2)
    Soorcerous Spyglass (2)

    Not commonly hit by chalice 2, but also common remvoal includes:
    Wear // Tear (R/W1 [cmc3])
    Krosan Grip (G2)
    Engineered Explosives (xx, usually used on zero)) (CBN)
    Virridian Corrupter (GG1) (Infect)
    Palace Jailor (WW2) (D and T)
    Reclamation Sage (G2) (Elves, Nic-Fit)
    Vraska, Golgari Queen (Nic-Fit) (BG2) (CBN)


    In other formats, the hate has adapted better than in legacy, and I would look to it to advise caution in sbing. OBIOUSLY, we havre the reloaded bonus of currently being allowed 4 Chaice of the Void. That invalidates the best removal vs us, Nature's Claim and Chain of Vapor.

    In Vintage, removal inludes:
    Subterraenean Tremors (Rx)
    Meltdown (Rx)
    By Force (Rx)
    Gorilla Shaman (Creature, R)
    Ingot Chewe (R4, but Evoke R)
    And aforementioned cards.

    The Rx cards are particularly annoying, as is the Shattering Spree. Ingot Chewer "Evoke, Casts for R" but has CMC 5, and cannot be needed

    Lesson 1 : Chalice 2 is better than chalice one often vs decks with hella hate. However, remember that if you chalice 2 first, you cannot chalice 1...edited out following

    Lesson 2: Trinisphere is only as good as you believe it is. Mind you that a lot of the best hate can and will be cast on or after t3 anyway.

    Lesson 3: Taxes!! Making some of the cards un-castable is a valid plan. A Thorn of Amethyst into a Lodestone Golem is functionally played the same turn as Three-Ball, but doesnt tax us nearly as bad as opponent and allows us to better play through Wasteland and Rishidan Port. Be cautious with the use of actual Sphere of Resistence and Trinisphere. Vs certain strategies and decks, it can lock us out too.

    Lesson 4: Some of our own answers get hit by chalice 2, so remember that when playing a chalice on 2. Thorn, Sphere of Resistance, Warping Wail, Spatial Contortion, Sorcerous Spyglass and Ratchet Bomb all cost 2. Price that in, for sure. Evaluate which sequence is best to play spells and remember that behind a bridge you can still cast them, they just get countered and go to the yard.

    Lesson 5: Vs Reanimator, UB is much better of a match than WRG! BwRg reanimator. In both cases the most “MUST ANSWERy” card is Tidespout Tyrant. Blood Moon should be played around from BR, but is functionally less important than Wear // Tear, Sire of Insantiy and definitely Tidespout Tyrant.

    Lesson 6: Vs elves be careful. If they get a super fast start including Wirewood Symbiote. A Symbiote into a Green Sun's Zenith for Reclamation Sage can be Game Over. That said, Symbiote can be Needled to keep rec sage from repeated bouncing. However, they ususaly also run Abrupt Decay, ee, and or Assassin's Trophy SB. EE can be put on 3, bc of the Birchlore Ranger.
    Last edited by malfie13; 04-20-2019 at 12:35 PM.
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  7. #4707
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Edit: Included Disenchant and Council's Judgement. I'm a fish. And I play Stoneblade as my other deck. Yikes.

    Legacy MUD SB Advice:

    MB Tech that we already worry about exists. Goblins are annoying, of course, because of tutors, Trashmaster and Cratermaker, often main board, and the fact that any gobbo pieces already cost excess of 1, and they run Aether Vial if they go first. And they run Wasteland, Risidan Port, and Blood Moon, sometimes.

    Other Common Issues Include:
    Abrupt Decay (Main and Side in Turbo Depths and other GB Based Decks) (GB, and Uncounterable)
    Fiery Confluence (RR2)
    Goblin Trashmaster (RR2, also a lord and no acrtual mana cost to activate, but can be needled [CBN])
    Flickerwisp (WW1, and can "reset chalice on 1" to zero)
    Wasteland and Rishidan Port
    Phyrexian Revoker (2) (Usually on Metalworker or Kuldotha Forgemaster. Can Neeedle anything but Lands, and does hit mana abilities).
    Counci's Judgment (WW1)

    Most of the important hate that will come in first is two mana. I am going to start with that, so remember it. Some of the most common sb tech has included, traditionally:

    Null Rod (2)
    Disenchant (W1)
    Hurkyl's Recall (U1)
    Abrade (R1)
    Shattering Spree (R) (Replicate)
    Ancient Grudge (R1)
    Goblin Cratermaker (R1) (CBN)
    Ratchet Bomb (2)
    Leonin Relic-Warder (D and T) (WW)
    Assassin's Trophy (GB) (Assasssin's Trophy IS NOT Abrupt Decay!! It can be countered!!)
    Throne of Geth (2)
    Phyrexian Revoker (2)
    Soorcerous Spyglass (2)

    Not commonly hit by chalice 2, but also common remvoal includes:
    Wear // Tear (R/W1 [cmc3])
    Krosan Grip (G2)
    Engineered Explosives (xx, usually used on zero)) (CBN)
    Virridian Corrupter (GG1) (Infect)
    Palace Jailor (WW2) (D and T)
    Reclamation Sage (G2) (Elves, Nic-Fit)
    Vraska, Golgari Queen (Nic-Fit) (BG2) (CBN)
    Back to Basics (U2)


    In other formats, the hate has adapted better than in legacy, and I would look to it to advise caution in sbing. OBIOUSLY, we havre the reloaded bonus of currently being allowed 4 Chaice of the Void. That invalidates the best removal vs us, Nature's Claim and Chain of Vapor.

    In Vintage, removal inludes:
    Subterraenean Tremors (Rx)
    Meltdown (Rx)
    By Force (Rx)
    Gorilla Shaman (Creature, R)
    Ingot Chewe (R4, but Evoke R)
    And aforementioned cards.

    The Rx cards are particularly annoying, as is the Shattering Spree. Ingot Chewer "Evoke, Casts for R" but has CMC 5, and cannot be needed

    Lesson 1 : Chalice 2 is better than chalice one often vs decks with hella hate. However, remember that if you chalice 2 first, you no longer chalice 1...unless you have to pay taxes, like thorn or sphere, which makes chalice 1 3 on the stack.

    Lesson 2: Trinisphere is only as good as you believe it is. Mind you that a lot of the best hate can and will be cast on or after t3 anyway.

    Lesson 3: Taxes!! Making some of the cards un-castable is a valid plan. A Thorn of Amethyst into a Lodestone Golem is functionally played the same turn as Three-Ball, but doesnt tax us nearly as bad as opponent and allows us to better play through Wasteland and Rishidan Port. Be cautious with the use of actual Sphere of Resistence and Trinisphere. Vs certain strategies and decks, it can lock us out too.

    Lesson 4: Some of our own answers get hit by chalice 2, so remember that when playing a chalice on 2. Thorn, Sphere of Resistance, Warping Wail, Spatial Contortion, Sorcerous Spyglass and Ratchet Bomb all cost 2. Price that in, for sure. Evaluate which sequence is best to play spells and remember that behind a bridge you can still cast them, they just get countered and go to the yard.

    Lesson 5: Vs Reanimator, UB is much better of a match than WRG! BwRg reanimator. In both cases the most “MUST ANSWERy” card is Tidespout Tyrant. Blood Moon should be played around from BR, but is functionally less important than Wear // Tear, Sire of Insantiy and definitely Tidespout Tyrant.

    Lesson 6: Vs elves be careful. If they get a super fast start including Wirewood Symbiote. A Symbiote into a Green Sun's Zenith for Reclamation Sage can be Game Over. That said, Symbiote can be Needled to keep rec sage from repeated bouncing. However, they ususaly also run Abrupt Decay, ee, and or Assassin's Trophy SB. EE can be put on 3, bc of the Birchlore Ranger.
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  8. #4708

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by malfie13 View Post
    However, remember that if you chalice 2 first, you no longer chalice 1...unless you have to pay taxes, like thorn or sphere, which makes chalice 1 3 on the stack.
    It is a 3 drop on the stack, but it is still a 2cmc spell so it would be countered by chalice on 2. Example: a Thalia would be countered by a chalice on 2 with a trinisphere or lodestone in play.

  9. #4709
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by 1ron View Post
    It is a 3 drop on the stack, but it is still a 2cmc spell so it would be countered by chalice on 2. Example: a Thalia would be countered by a chalice on 2 with a trinisphere or lodestone in play.
    Yup, checked with judges and edited. Was typing quickly. Works with converge, not cmc
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    So I was thiking if we MD new karn and new Ugin we can go more aggressive and use 4 Myr Superion as we have ugin to reduce cost to zero, metalworker and karn's animation ability to use on mana rocks. It is conveniently 5/6 to be above gurmag angler but doesn't work well with trinisphere+ cost reducer, so instead of trini, I'd recommend thorn MD.

  11. #4711

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverflame View Post
    So I was thiking if we MD new karn and new Ugin we can go more aggressive and use 4 Myr Superion as we have ugin to reduce cost to zero, metalworker and karn's animation ability to use on mana rocks. It is conveniently 5/6 to be above gurmag angler but doesn't work well with trinisphere+ cost reducer, so instead of trini, I'd recommend thorn MD.

    Holy crap that's some smart tech.

    What kind of list are you feeling?

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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by 1ron View Post
    Holy crap that's some smart tech.

    What kind of list are you feeling?
    I haven't tested it yet, just throwing ideas.

    Unfortunately Myr Superion is a Myr (duh) not a golem, or else I'd go blue with Wing Splicer to guarantee the last dmg.
    Basically its a turbo MUD with toolbox. You try to close the game as fast as possible, and if the opponent stabilizes, you have blast zone and 8 draw effects (portals and all the pws).
    You can use key or Umbral Mantle to equip mishra's factory to cast superion or just to get 2:+2/+2. Or equip metalworker with 2 artifacts in hand to go infinite.

    4 wasteland
    4 mishra's factory
    4 Ancient tomb
    2 Cavern of Souls
    1 karakas
    1 Inventor's Fair
    1 Buried Ruin
    2 Mox Diamond
    2 Blast Zone
    3 city of traitors
    4 grim monolith
    1 Thran Dynamo

    3 Chalice of the void
    2 thorn of amethist
    4 metalworker
    4 lodestone golem
    4 myr superion
    1 Steel Hellkite
    3 Wurmcoil Engine
    1 Platinum Emperion
    1 lightning greaves
    1 Meteor Golem
    1 Crucible of Worlds
    2 Coercive Portal
    3 Karn, the great Creator
    2 Ugin, the Ineffable
    1 Karn, Scion of Urza

    SB:
    1 Walking Ballista
    1 Nevinyrral's Disk
    2 Sorcerous Spyglass
    1 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Basilisk Collar
    1 staff of domination
    1 Umbral Mantle
    1 Mycosynth Lattice
    2 tormod's Crypt
    1 Faerie Macabre
    1 smokestack
    2 Voltaic Key
    1 Chalice of the void

  13. #4713
    bruizar
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverflame View Post
    So I was thiking if we MD new karn and new Ugin we can go more aggressive and use 4 Myr Superion as we have ugin to reduce cost to zero, metalworker and karn's animation ability to use on mana rocks. It is conveniently 5/6 to be above gurmag angler but doesn't work well with trinisphere+ cost reducer, so instead of trini, I'd recommend thorn MD.
    You could also use 1 sb Urza's Incubator for Karn to reduce the cost of Myr Superion to zero.

  14. #4714
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Yikes. That is indeed an Avenue that may as well be explored. I feel like bt new cards and new mulligan rules the city gates have been left ajar
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by malfie13 View Post
    Yikes. That is indeed an Avenue that may as well be explored. I feel like bt new cards and new mulligan rules the city gates have been left ajar
    I believe so. I'm revisiting old ideas to try new builds, but I'm not sure what will stick. The "Myr aggro stompy" could use Traxos, TKS or batterskull instead of Emperion and greaves, increasing the chance of dropping a huge creature almost every turn.
    But I'm more focused on the blue build, I feel like there is something there I'm missing. Maybe Read the Runes with Goblin Welder + other artificer (not sure if Master Transmuter or Arcum Dagsson, probably Dagsson.) I tried a build with Scroll Rack + Treasure Hunt, but it was too slow, that engine would probably be better in a Land Tax build or something, so I'm binning those.

  16. #4716
    bruizar
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by Silverflame View Post
    I believe so. I'm revisiting old ideas to try new builds, but I'm not sure what will stick. The "Myr aggro stompy" could use Traxos, TKS or batterskull instead of Emperion and greaves, increasing the chance of dropping a huge creature almost every turn.
    But I'm more focused on the blue build, I feel like there is something there I'm missing. Maybe Read the Runes with Goblin Welder + other artificer (not sure if Master Transmuter or Arcum Dagsson, probably Dagsson.) I tried a build with Scroll Rack + Treasure Hunt, but it was too slow, that engine would probably be better in a Land Tax build or something, so I'm binning those.
    I've been sitting on Arcum Dagsson for a long time. I was never able to build it properly, but being able to grab a Possessed Portal, Lattice or just combo off is incredibly brutal.

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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by bruizar View Post
    I've been sitting on Arcum Dagsson for a long time. I was never able to build it properly, but being able to grab a Possessed Portal, Lattice or just combo off is incredibly brutal.
    My thoughts exactly. With wurmcoils, battlesphere and crucible you have a high chance of locking the opponent on the spot with 1 Dagsson activation for portal (props if you do it in response of a brainstorm).

  18. #4718

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Hallo everyone,
    just tested a few games with the new Karn in a classic MUD shell with Mycosynth Lattice in the sideboard. I found it really underwhelming in the few games i had, because Karn has usually no direct impact in the game except for making a lousy blocker out of any hatepiece that is not Chalice, which would just die. To really get some value out of it, you need to have all the relevant pieces in the sideboard too, so you either move those from the mainboard into one ofs into the sideboard and reduce mainboard strength or you reshape the sideboard to have more artifact based answers and less other things. Maybe the other decks are not really representative, but against combo decks like reanimator or storm, i felt like i just didnt have the time to assemble the lock.

    How are your expectations on the Karn and how would you reshape the deck to better fit him? How many will you include?

  19. #4719

    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by kathor View Post
    Hallo everyone,
    just tested a few games with the new Karn in a classic MUD shell with Mycosynth Lattice in the sideboard. I found it really underwhelming in the few games i had, because Karn has usually no direct impact in the game except for making a lousy blocker out of any hatepiece that is not Chalice, which would just die. To really get some value out of it, you need to have all the relevant pieces in the sideboard too, so you either move those from the mainboard into one ofs into the sideboard and reduce mainboard strength or you reshape the sideboard to have more artifact based answers and less other things. Maybe the other decks are not really representative, but against combo decks like reanimator or storm, i felt like i just didnt have the time to assemble the lock.

    How are your expectations on the Karn and how would you reshape the deck to better fit him? How many will you include?
    You have to play Ensnaring Bridge in the SB to make it work properly. First time you cast him, you get Ensnaring Bridge to stop the opponent from attacking him with creatures.

    If they don't have creatures in play then you can just get the Lattice or some other hate piece. Against combo decks like Reanimator or Storm you need to play other toolbox answers such as Trinisphere, Tormod's Crypt in the SB.

    Karn works best when Lattice is just another option when the coast is clear.
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  20. #4720
    bruizar
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    Re: [Deck] MUD (Metalworker)

    Quote Originally Posted by MGB View Post
    You have to play Ensnaring Bridge in the SB to make it work properly. First time you cast him, you get Ensnaring Bridge to stop the opponent from attacking him with creatures.

    If they don't have creatures in play then you can just get the Lattice or some other hate piece. Against combo decks like Reanimator or Storm you need to play other toolbox answers such as Trinisphere, Tormod's Crypt in the SB.

    Karn works best when Lattice is just another option when the coast is clear.
    I advocated 3 Liquimetal Coatings main and 1 in the side, + zuran orb + tormod's crypt. I'd play a Lodestone Golem before Trinisphere as a wish target, since you need to capitalize on the turns you gain against storm. If you give them enough time, they will EOT Chain of Vapor and go off anyway. Probably, Karn is too slow for storm anyway and you just need to have some thorn of amethysts or 3spheres main that you can cast on the first turn, but the other match ups you can board pretty relevant and quick cards imo.

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