All I know is putting Nature's Claim and Chain of Vapor in the same sideboard will get you ridiculed here on the forums.Originally Posted by GnuHouse
This is not true.
There is a huge difference between full plysets of Claim/Chain and a 3-2 split. One should play between 4 and 5 anti-Leyline cards. Chain and Claim are your options. Either split is fine as long as you have 4-5 total. Running 8 total is what people ridicule in these forums.
I've seen decks that run Bloodghasts, but not out of the board. Don't like them in my current builds (trying to decide between Flayer and Quadlazer builids). Sundering Titan is new from the board, which had me scratching my head.
Bloodghast is basically identical to putting in something like Gravecrawler or Ashen Ghoul in the sideboard as a diversion for Surgical Extraction. Same premise.
I agree, as I have also done the same (2-2 split). I can't imagine how you'd be able to properly fit 8 total in the sideboard though... you can probably round that sideboard out with a 3-4 split of Wispmare and Ingot Chewer.
Cheers,
jares
Sundering Titan reminds me of Realm Razer. Maybe this new DR target can be added to the opening post?
Cheers,
jares
Well, it does show that you don't need any more than 2 Ichorids and X Dread Returns to win game 1's, if anything it reconfirms my suspicions that we're playing too many win conditions and too few lands.
Cutting Breakthrough is probably just awful tho', no way Putrid Imp stays in the MD before Breakthrough IMO.
I strongly believe nobody was "ridiculed"
This man is a truthspeaker! You deserve a beer - if you see me in Ghent, you may present yourself to me as The Speaker of Truths and I will buy you a beer of choice
Hey guys, I want to rip some players apart so I'm going to win the next tournament no matter what - I need your advice to achieve my goal. I'm playing non-LED Dredge (due to budget + playstyle) and I don't know how to tune my sideboard for the event. I expect a ton of UR Delver, Nic Fit and GW Maverick. Also one of the best players here always plays Reanimator, so I'd better be prepared for it. List is still the same:
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// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [8E] City of Brass
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
2 [OD] Tarnished Citadel
// Creatures
4 [OD] Tireless Tribe
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
3 [TO] Ichorid
1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [OD] Careful Study
2 [TSP] Dread Return
1 [RAV] Darkblast
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Considering I want to fit the 4th Ichorid in somewhere (makes flashbacking Therapy easier), what is the best suggested sideboard I can build with these cards?
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4x Nature's Claim
4x Chain of Vapor
4x Ancient Grudge
4x Firestorm
3x Purify the Grave
2x Ingot Chewer
2x Ray of Revelation
1x Ichorid
1x Angel of Despair
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P.S. - Isn't it better to play the fourth Ichorid maindeck in spite of Iona?
0.05.14 [Digital Devil] <Digital Devil> Ach! Hans, run! It's the Tarmogoyf!
0.05.17 [Hans (GER)] <Hans (GER)> ...
0.05.20 [<System>] <System> Player Lost
First off, I agree with your P.S. If you are going to play a MD DR target, I feel like it should actually win you the game instead of functionally, put that's just my opinion.
As far as SB notes, you should probably cut down on your leyline hate cards. 4-5 is the accepted amount it seems, usually using some split of nature's claim and chain of vapor. Ray of revelation has really fallen out of favor due to its 2cmc. I think you are playing too many anti-hate cards in general. 4 ancient grudge 2 ignot chewer is very excessive. I only play 4 chain of vapor to bounce cage and leyline and no other hate cards. The logic behind that is you can just play through other hate by slow dredging and forcing them to crack their crypt or relic, and you can just sit back on dredger + draw spell.
Also, I feel like it's wrong to not play at least a few lootings, even in LEDless.
If I were to alter the 75, it would probably look something more like this.
------------------------------------------------
// Lands
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [8E] City of Brass
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
3 [OD] Tarnished Citadel
// Creatures
2 [OD] Tireless Tribe
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [TO] Ichorid
// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [OD] Careful Study
1 [TSP] Dread Return
1 [RAV] Darkblast
2 [ISD] Faithless Looting
4x Chain of Vapor
4x Firestorm
3x Faerie Macabre
1x Dread Return
1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1x Angel of Despair
1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
Ideas on the sideboard: You really only need 4x Chain for the hate as you can play through crypt/relic. For more permanent hate, like leyline/cage/jailer, you can sit back and sculpt your hand like a storm player with your studies, then when you find chain EOT bounce target hate card, upkeep discard dredger, dredge, discard dredger, breakthrough kill them (or at least therapy away the hate card). 4x Firestorm, because Maverick is a deck, enough said there. 3x Faerie Macabre for your friend the Reanimator Player. I like putting the second DR in the board if you have no MD DR targets.
Hope this helps you out!
That's Doctor to you. Dr. Edge.
People extract GGT in your meta? Can I come play at your shop?
That's Doctor to you. Dr. Edge.
My list is almost like this one, with +3 looting -2 Tribe -1 Darkblast. About the 4th Ichorid, Iona seems better (Final Fortune is even arguing that only 2 Ichorids are enough...).
About the sideboard, instead of using Purify the Grave, you can use Leyline of the Void.
I'll grab the opportunity to discuss (again) about Firestorm. I was playing with a burrowed Maverick last week, and getting a turn 2 Ooze is so easy that the dredge player needs something solid to stop it. Land+Hierarch/Zenith(Arbor)+Ooze gives a turn 2 Ooze with one mana floating, and a normal turn 2 Ooze is dangerous even without mana to activate it.
There's another option better than Firestorm to fight the ooze?
I've noticed a recent tend towards higher land count. I assume this is to increase consistency in the opener but if so shouldn't any such increase be split equally between lands and dredgers? i.e. 13/13 split rather than 14/12 lands?
You don't *have* to run any Dread Returns if you don't want to. We have no idea what areas Thompson struggled in on his way to placing with the deck. I'm quite certain his strength of play masked some minor flaws with the deck over the course of the entire day.
Thirteen land is more than fine in LED Dredge. He was running fifteen total to facilitate Bloodghasts out of the board.
What minor flaws did you see with the list?
(not implying it was perfect simply asking your opinion)
I personally like reanimation targets in my deck but i think im just a fan of splashy big finishes
Do you have any idea how ignorant it is to say this when you don't take into consideration the context in which Dredgers are targeted for removal? It happens, period, I'd prefer to be prepared for it than not.
Your line of thought is correct, but you don't take into account that you should atually count only Gold lands into your actual land count. Coliseum as your only land can only cast one spell right (Study). It's actually a draw spell, not a land.
Then it should make sense why people try to play more lands. The most successful lists play 10 gold lands, many of them have the 11th in the sideboard. I'm currently trying to fit the 11th in the main deck and I read that the sb Land was Gerry T's mvp card in the tournament.
Thanks for the explanations, in that context it makes more sense. Also is 11 lands now considered the optimal amount, if the main wasn't so tight?
The first flaw I see with the list is only two Breakthrough. Because LED is much more of a Combo deck than any of its counterparts, you really want either three or four of them to max out on its efficiency. Two really isn't enough to fire out quick wins game one where having a third or fourth add a bit more redundancy to win flat-out with.
Two Ichorids are fine, but I think a lot of folks tend to sway more towards three. If you're plowing through your entire deck and want to facilitate fast, evasive kills, then you really want to have that diversity aside from Narcomoebas to either naturally (EOT) or purposefully put Zombie tokens into play.
I personally don't like Nature's Claims mixed with Chain of Vapor, and have never been an advocate of Chain of Vapor in this archetype. It doesn't do anything but delay the inevitable, and the only targets that you can really benefit from playing this with are against Leyline and Elesh Norn, which is why I just think the certainty and definitive solution of being able to destroy Leyline with Claim is really more than enough.
You should (could) run some form of grave-hate in the sideboard, but it's obvious he eschewed that to run Vapor for Reanimator or problematic enchantments that deserve to be bounced.
I have also never liked Bloodghast in LED Dredge. If you're looking to explode on someone by using LED or other draw/discard effects, you really would rather have additional Ichorids or Ashen Ghoul/Gravecrawler as they are far less conditional than a card which necessitates having - and holding - a land in your hand in order to be viable. I think Bloodghast is the stone-cold nuts in Vintage Dredge, but not so much in Legacy *LED* Dredge.
The Dread Return targets post-board are cute, and I see what he is trying to do with Sundering Titan and Cabal Therapy, but Dredge shouldn't be wasting its time trying to pin an opponent's resources so much as it should be trying to flat out deal damage and win the game. It's really just a vanilla 7/10 that gets chumped all day and doesn't do much of anything else besides that.
Still, Gerry obviously played tight and did what he had to to win games - which should go to show some of the more inexperienced players that if you play tight, remember triggers and mulligan correctly you can win lots of games.
Last edited by Michael Keller; 05-29-2012 at 12:26 AM.
I believe he said the bloodghasts are for anti surgical, which i understand since that card can be brutal. I have been kinda on board with the ghast plan against surgical as well due to losing too many games to surgical meba surgical ichorid (i'll just cry now...)
as for maindeck targets i've started to come around to the fact that they kinda maybe don't actually do anything.... which sadly took me a long time to figure out.
i can't believe i missed that he ran only two breakthroughs....
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