I Writez Article! Analyzing DKA and them Legacy Metagames

[Di]

Really enjoyed the article, definitely left me interested to hear more of what you have to say.

As far as the strategy content is concerned, I agree with your conclusions that combo seems like a good answer to what the meta is shaping up to be. I expect the actual effect will be weaker than one should expect, though, because the typically very high skill-cap of combo-decks in combination with their unusual playstyles limits the number of people that can bring those decks to tournaments and succeed.

It's easy for most proficient players to pick up something like Blade or Maverick close to cold and play it well enough to win a solid amount of matches. Doing the same with Tide, Tendrils or Dredge (assuming people play gy-hate at all) requires either more training with that specific deck or more experience with these types of decks in general - which a lot of players don't have, be it because they mainly play non-Eternal formats or because they always preferred to play "fairer" decks and are therefore not used to the way they work.
I think it's no coincidence that Reanimator (before all the gy-hate) and Show and Tell decks have been more common sights in Top eights than the more complex spell chain decks (that usually show up in the hands of long time players of such decks).

This is true and is part of the nature of most Legacy players. I do think though that given the potential holes in the metagame that can be exploited, people will realize what combo decks are poised to attack and might be willing to sit down and practice with them until they're ready for a big event. That kind of patience and practices pays off, as evidenced by my own top4 finish or by high finishes from other people such as Bryant with TES or the Hatfields with High Tide as well.

In the context of that debate, and purely as constructive criticism on your writing style (as that's something I'd very much enjoy to get for my articles):

The beginning of your article at first gave me the same impression that you were claiming Dark Ascension had much more of an impact than most other blocks/sets. I think this stems from the fact of how powerfully you set up the contrast between paragraph two and paragraphs three & four:

P2:
"Out of the entire block, the only cards"
"much more narrow"
"although I will note that the addition of Jin-Gitaxias"

P3&4:
"turned the Legacy world upside-down"
"enormous impact on the format"
"Dark Ascension pretty much took Indianapolis by storm"
"new major players"

The effect is reinforced by the (very well crafted) seemingly low impact into actual high impact transition between paragraph 3 and paragraph 4.

All of this leads to your quite correct estimation of "the number of influential new Legacy playables arriving with Dark Ascension is quite high" being easily misinterpreted as "wow, Dark Ascension has more playables than all of Scars block".

Hope this was useful.

That's arguably the best feedback I could expect on this article. Well said and noted. After seeing the reaction from the SoM block example, I can at least see a different perspective on where people are coming from with this misunderstanding. I likely could've used softer phrasing for how I described some of SoM block given it gave such an unintended reaction. But at least people are getting what I'm saying now that the air is cleared. :)

[Vacrix]

So..

The first half essentially covers how Dark Ascension has had a major impact on Legacy in it's short time, and the second half is a short analysis on how the metagame is panning out as a result.

Have at it folks!

And then IBA stepped in to politically correct everyone..

......You know what, I'll just quote myself.

And then Di was all like..

Obviously no argument here those cards are stronger. But I'm not putting the DKA cards on pedestal or giving them unreal expectations by sticking them in any list I can. I simply highlighted how a couple cards have made a major splash in Legacy. The fact that they see play in other formats is irrelevant, especially considering they aren't nearly as popular or powerful as the cards from Zen-Scars standard. Cards blown up that big were bound to have that effect on Legacy brewers, these ones clearly won't.

And sure enough after a clever observation by Mons, Goblin Chief...

After seeing the reaction from the SoM block example, I can at least see a different perspective on where people are coming from with this misunderstanding. I likely could've used softer phrasing for how I described some of SoM block given it gave such an unintended reaction. But at least people are getting what I'm saying now that the air is cleared. :)

/thread

[bruizar]

You have repeatedly shown through your comments that you have at best a shaky grasp of the cards or the interactions of the format. Show and Tell into double cascade and other legacy gems like that.

This is a lie and you can look up that particular post as proof.

I'm pointing this pretty ad hominemous thing out because it really has bothered me in this forum how you have the urge to burp out your opinions in every matter and at the same time have so little knowledge about for example how specific format staples work.

Which staples are you referring to? Cards that haven't even be printed yet that I didn't even claim interacted with Sneak Attack or Show and Tell (Maelstrom Wanderer)?

If you're from the States, you probably follow the SCG Open series. Dan Signorini won one of them with his Team America which incorporated Sylvan Library and Vapors. Many followed his card choices, but in my opinion the card is good only if decent amount of Progenitus sees play in given tournament.

I'm not from the US and I'm not on GGSlive every weekend. I try to watch frequently but the time difference basically means I lose my entire weekend watching a tournament. I use different sources than SCG's deck database as reference because the US metagame is different from the EU metagame the same way Japan has its own metagame evolution.

That said, my point at the start of this discussion was to show how the OP underestimated the effect of scars block.

IBA then tried to attack this point by showing that other fringe cards from other blocks also see play but didn't have a big enough effect to transform the metagame. This basically derailed the thread. It is unrelated to the point I made concerning the OP's underestimation of Scars block (Zendikar block has nothing to do with Scars block or Innistrad block in this discussion). I didn't plan to get into a heated discussion about which set is better in the grand scheme of Magic. All I did was point out that the OP made a false statement in his article by showing a list of cards that see play in Legacy, and have even created entire archetypes.

Also, if you would take the time to read carefully, you would see that I wrote:"

I don't recall any legacy deck running Into the Roil, Valakut, Stirring Wildwood, Linvala, See Beyond, Consuming Vapors, Gideon Jura or Searing Blaze. I think you are confused with extended.

and read:

The only deck that innistrad block has 'created', already existed, which is Pox. Please correct me if I'm wrong. It would be helpful if you would provide evidence/attempt to be more accurate with your statements.

However, when you make claims that (at least I believe) are false, you are actively undermining valid contributions to the discussion and your own point.

These disclaimers were used because we live in a world with incomplete information. I cannot know everything that goes on in every tournament in the world, and neither can you. This is the reason why I named the decks next to the list of cards from Scars. I cannot expect you to know everything and neither can you expect the same from others. I asked for a correction or evidence, which IBA gave me for some of the cards he mentioned, but he didn't give that for every card he listed, such as See Beyond. That's enough evidence that he carelessly listed those cards from his memory of tournament magic as a whole, instead of legacy tournament magic. Since legacy is what we're trying to discuss here, IBA's argument is backed up with at least a partial list of irrelevant cards.

You don't have to know everything about the format. If you still want to try, at least make some research. Legacy is more than just deckcheck and even surprising new and old cards get playtime everytime there's a tournament somewhere. It's not like you knew everything, so don't act like it.

Read the above disclaimers before you say that I act like I know everything.

Also:

I'm pointing this pretty ad hominemous thing out because it really has bothered me in this forum how you have the urge to burp out your opinions in every matter

I own every tier 1/1.5 legacy deck and most of the lower tier decks as well, except for pattern of rebirth or something super fringe like that. I take part in deck discussions that interest me, and there's a correlation between owning a deck and having an interest in a deck. Since I own almost all of the decks being discussed here, I take part in more discussions than you might do.


It's a shame that one introductory paragraph eclipses the rest of the OP's article. I shouldn't have baited IBA's attempt to derail the thread and I apologize for that to the OP.

Back on topic:
I believe that Lingering Souls will be a meta-game trick that can take an unprepared tournament. It differs from Dredge as a metagame predator because you only need to dedicate a couple of slots to the plan, instead of dedicating an entire deck and becoming 100% liable to graveyard hate. Intuition into Lingering Souls is like an Empty the Warrens without the requirement to storm into it. I don't think the BUG Control lists will be very popular on the short term, but I do think they will be good enough to beat the current metagame. Maverick will continue its reign as the strongest deck to beat, even though Tom Martell took Indianapolis with EsperBlade. Now that people know about EsperBlade and the Lingering Souls package, Maverick can prepare and it has plenty of great solutions such as Sulfur Elemental.

I think the success of EsperBlade will push Maverick further into the top tiers, until popularity of BUG Control lists start rising. I also think there is room for some sort of RBG or RBU list to take on the current meta. Between Grim Lavamancer, Sulfur Elemental, Punishing Fires, Ancient Grudge, Red Elemental Blast and Lightning Bolt, red seems like one of the stronger splash colors at the moment. Lastly, and this I could be totally wrong about, there might be room for Olivia Voldaren in the meta.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

@Colin: Whether or not you meant to, you certainly did discuss the comparative impact of blocks. Carsten's advice is good about the way your message was phrased, but more generally you should just be aware that you can't dictate how people will respond to your arguments, and if people talk about the bits you just threw in, well, that's a problem on you of message discipline.

Also, it's a bit silly to say that Lingering Souls is more relevant than Thrun because Thrun isn't Lingering Souls. Obviously the cards do different things. There's no intrinsic reason why what Lingering Souls does is going to be relevant longer or more widely than what Thrun does though.

To a large extent this should simply be a function of time though. I would be pretty happy to wager that most top 8's going on six months from now will not feature either a Thalia or a Lingering Souls, although I shouldn't be surprised if they continue to see moderate on and off play.

@bruizar: You don't seem to have understood what anyone has said. The point I originally was making in response to Colin's article was that every block has a major impact on Legacy. I can't think of a block in the entire time I've played the format that bucked this rule.

I asked for a correction or evidence, which IBA gave me for some of the cards he mentioned, but he didn't give that for every card he listed, such as See Beyond. That's enough evidence that he carelessly listed those cards from his memory of tournament magic as a whole, instead of legacy tournament magic. Since legacy is what we're trying to discuss here, IBA's argument is backed up with at least a partial list of irrelevant cards.

Spine.

Of.

Ish.

Sah.

Are you even being serious right now.

I shouldn't have baited IBA's attempt to derail the thread and I apologize for that to the OP.

This isn't English. Also ginger please.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

So..


And then IBA stepped in to politically correct everyone..

And then Vacrix found out that instead of writing things he could just post funny pictures from the internet and was all like

[Vacrix]

Guilty

[bruizar]

Spine.

Of.

Ish.

Sah.

Are you even being serious right now.

Why wouldn't I be serious? Spine of Ish Sah is a Kuldotha Forgemaster target in pretty much every MUD deck. You are just making a fool out of your self the way you did in our Batterskull discussion.

Also:

Also, it's a bit silly to say that Lingering Souls is more relevant than Thrun because Thrun isn't Lingering Souls. Obviously the cards do different things.

Of course you can compare cards with each other. This method of comparison is applied in every industry / research field all the time. Just because 2 cards function differently doesn't mean you can't compare them. Your whole statement is erroneous.

There's no intrinsic reason why what Lingering Souls does is going to be relevant longer or more widely than what Thrun does though.

I could give you plenty of examples but I'll only give you two hypothetical situations.

1) Every deck maindecks 4 Nature's Ruin and 4 Perish
Thrun will have a very hard time in this meta. Lingering Souls is not affected by anti-green sweepers.

2) The card Tariff is widely adopted as the go to removal card. Lingering Souls costs 0 mana for the caster of Tariff, whereas Thrun ties up 4 mana and Tariff circumvents troll-shroud.

Some of the advantages of Lingering Souls compared to Thrun:
Lingering Souls comes a turn sooner than Thrun in a game with equal acceleration.
Lingering Souls provides spirits with evasion worth the same amount of power as Thrun
1 Spirit can chump Thrun, while the other 3 keep pushing forward, which means Lingering Souls outraces Thrun

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Why wouldn't I be serious? Spine of Ish Sah is a Kuldotha Forgemaster target in pretty much every MUD deck.

Of the nine lists with Forgemaster that top 16's an SCG Open with Forgemaster, only 3 had a Spine of Ish Sah anywhere in their 75. Which, granted, is three more than I would expect.

It's also significantly less than, say, Linvala has put up in the past weekend alone. And that's not even a particularly amazing card.

Little to no results for half the other cards on that list. You might counter that you see decks at your local store with Karn Liberated; so fucking what? I mentioned See Beyond because I in particular remember Adam Barnello masturbating over the card when it came out. See again my point about how there is no clear distinction about what a Legacy "playable" is. There are cards that clearly staples, and cards that are clearly unplayable, but everything else is a grey area.

You are just making a fool out of your self the way you did in our Batterskull discussion.

When Batterskull came out everyone was talking about popping it into the midrangey decks that were running SFM at the time, which have almost all since dropped the card, or just straight up asserting it as the "new Tinker" that was going to run over the format.

In fact where it found a home was in a very slow control deck that can often bounce it, hardcast it or pay the equip cost, and as soon as that list first hit the SCG Open right before GP Providence I said it looked interesting and was an application of Batterskull I hadn't thought about (and which no one in the card speculation thread had mentioned as a possibility either, preferring to drool over the idea of cheating a 4/4 into play for only four mana.)

Of course you can compare cards with each other. This is done in every industry / research field all the time. Just because 2 cards function differently doesn't mean you can't compare them. Your whole statement is erroneous.

Herp a derp.

Yes, you can compare different things. You can't assert that thing A is better than thing B because thing B is much less A-esque than A is, though. This is just begging the question.

could give you plenty of examples but I'll only give you two hypothetical situations.

Hypothetical situation; you stop to actually read a post, consider what it means, and respond thoughtfully after considering the contents.

What would that be like.

[bruizar]

Seriously IBA, if all you can do is flame people, why do you bother posting at all? You attack Colin on the fact that he's comparing Lingering Souls to Thrun, and when someone steps in to provide a valid counterargument, you brush it off by saying "herp a derp". Way to behave like a child, dude. If all you can do is flame people, for the love of god, please just go to IRC instead of poisoning a thread someone made in order to get a discussion going for an article he spent a good amount of time and thought on to create it.

PS.

When Batterskull came out everyone was talking about popping it into the midrangey decks that were running SFM at the time, which have almost all since dropped the card, or just straight up asserting it as the "new Tinker" that was going to run over the format.

In fact where it found a home was in a very slow control deck that can often bounce it, hardcast it or pay the equip cost, and as soon as that list first hit the SCG Open right before GP Providence I said it looked interesting and was an application of Batterskull I hadn't thought about (and which no one in the card speculation thread had mentioned as a possibility either, preferring to drool over the idea of cheating a 4/4 into play for only four mana.)

Before you even involved yourself in that thread and decided to go on a crusade to make a bigger fool out of yourself than you already are, I suggested in the 4th reply of that thread: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...CD-Batterskull

I could definitely see a framework with:

4 Stoneforge Mystics
3 Thopter Foundry
1 Sword of X/Y
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of the Meek
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor

Any sane person would agree that this looks like a control shell and that it is not far from how SFM was being used in the Jace decks.

Stop subtly rewriting history trying to protect your laughable internet reputation. Thanks

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

No, I did not attack Colin; we're having a discussion. And if I did he's a big boy and he can certainly handle himself.

You are merely whinging at this point.