Linky.
The first half essentially covers how Dark Ascension has had a major impact on Legacy in it's short time, and the second half is a short analysis on how the metagame is panning out as a result.
I will note that as I was writing this (and finishing it), the SCG Invitational just finished so I based some of my conclusions off that. The Legacy Open was only a couple rounds underway by the time I submitted it, so that wasn't reflected in the article, but certainly would've been especially given how Maverick dominated the event.
Have at it folks!
Sir, that is what I call a well written article!! I totally agree with your point of view.
Well written sir. DKA has manipulated Legacy quite a bit and it gave us more cards in one set that were significant contributions than most other recent sets. Moreover, we can find all these cards in the DTB.
Luck is a residue of design.
I'm an aspiring Psychedelic Trance musician. Please feel free to enjoy my sense of life:
http://soundcloud.com/vacrix
Expect me or die. I play SI.
This article seems to contradict itself, opening with, "Most blocks only add a few cards to the Legacy metagame," and following with, "Dark Ascension, by contrast, adds the following few cards to the Legacy metagame."
I mean Lingering Souls and Thalia are certainly fine cards, but I very much doubt and haven't seen any evidence that either is as major an addition to the Legacy metagame as, say, Green Sun's Zenith. Green Sun's Zenith is a fundamentally very powerful and versatile card that allows you a level of control over how your game develops. Lingering Souls and Thalia are cards that got inserted into existing decks because they patched up those deck's matchups against some specific other decks (RUG Tempo and combo respectively.)
I would in fact be surprised if Lingering Souls saw continuous and significant play in future metagames.
I think you also fail to take into account how much Legacy is shaped by what's happening in smaller formats. Several people mocked me for saying last Summer that the decks built around Stoneforge, Batterskull, and Jace were being greatly overhyped. At the time CawBlade was dominating or had just dominated Type 2, and not coincidentally they were seeing plenty of play in Legacy. Now they've certainly receded in popularity, at least to the extent that people are no longer demanding that they be crammed into every deck that could potentially support them. And those are cards that are all, I think, fundamentally stronger than Lingering Souls or Thalia.
Although I say that there seems to be a contradiction, there really isn't one. Every set does add a few cards to the Legacy metagame; but even in a format this large and deep, the addition of a few new cards or archetypes tends to change the balance of power drastically; a tendency that is exacerbated by peoples' desire to generally play the newer cards or copy archetypes they're using in smaller formats.
But I don't think Dark Ascension stands out particularly in this cycle, and is in fact fairly middling in terms of influence from newer sets; probably the weakest of the past three (not including M12) and very comparable to Mirrodin Besieged.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Wonderful article. I completely agree with your opinion on combo decks in the near future meta.
The results of the past three large events aren't evidence enough of being major additions? Granted neither card is as strong as Green Sun's Zenith and that also helped support an entire archetype, but to argue either other card is seeing play merely for increasing rough matchup percentages is outrageous. Both cards are also used based on power level, not solely because they help certain matchups.Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Lingering Souls is good in any matchup except combo, and even then Esper is adding Cabal Therapy to get extra value out of it so it's still solid. The card does so much for that deck it goes far beyond a
need to shore up the aggressive matchups. It's the real deal. I won't exaggerate its effectiveness, but it's very good for the deck and will likely see play beyond it. Thalia as well. It would see play regardless on how the metagame looked. Combo isn't very popular now, yet Thalia is huge. It's applications reach beyond combo to any non-aggro deck, which is basically 2/3 of the format.
To say Lingering Souls won't see significant play in future metagames is not something mitigated by the strength of the card, but metagame trends. The card will be a staple as long as the metagame is relatively similar to what it resembles now. If it changes, maybe it won't be in the deck. But that isn't an argument against the card at all, so using that to dismiss it is irrational. Under that same claim, you could say the same thing for a number of other cards that are great in particular decks but have fallen out of favor, such as Natural Order.
Obviously no argument here those cards are stronger. But I'm not putting the DKA cards on pedestal or giving them unreal expectations by sticking them in any list I can. I simply highlighted how a couple cards have made a major splash in Legacy. The fact that they see play in other formats is irrelevant, especially considering they aren't nearly as popular or powerful as the cards from Zen-Scars standard. Cards blown up that big were bound to have that effect on Legacy brewers, these ones clearly won't.
Sure, except this isn't a case of people mimicking decks they play in other formats. Neither card is played in a similar deck something that is seen elsewhere. These were purely cases of improving archetypes, not adding gimmicks of comfort from other formats.
Over the past few years, there are obviously a few stronger candidates. But I disagree that Dark Ascension's influence is "fairly middling" and also think it's stronger than Mirrodon Beseiged. Outside GSZ, Beseiged only had only a couple cards seen in mediocre decks or singletons like Thrun. Compare that to three cards that redefined archetypes and the addition of the best sideboard card in a long time. But again, this isn't my point so it's trivial to discuss. The point of the article (first half at least) was simply to illustrate the impact Dark Ascension is having on Legacy, not start a comparative analysis of recent decks and how they support Legacy.
I'm looking forward to more regular Legacy content from you on TCG in the future!
No, for reasons I've already outlined. At least if we take "major additions" here to be, "permanent staples."
Well you grant that now, but previously you seemed to argue against this conclusion when you dismissed the impact of SoM block.Granted neither card is as strong as Green Sun's Zenith
Really now, "outrageous"?and that also helped support an entire archetype, but to argue either other card is seeing play merely for increasing rough matchup percentages is outrageous. Both cards are also used based on power level, not solely because they help certain matchups.
1) Lingering Souls is not "good" in any matchup besides combo, it is "acceptable" in any matchup besides combo. There are lots of matchups where it isn't particularly great. In this it bears a lot of resemblance to a card like, say, Thrun, which you also dismiss in your article.Lingering Souls is good in any matchup except combo, and even then Esper is adding Cabal Therapy to get extra value out of it so it's still solid. The card does so much for that deck it goes far beyond a
need to shore up the aggressive matchups. It's the real deal. I won't exaggerate its effectiveness, but it's very good for the deck and will likely see play beyond it. Thalia as well. It would see play regardless on how the metagame looked. Combo isn't very popular now, yet Thalia is huge. It's applications reach beyond combo to any non-aggro deck, which is basically 2/3 of the format.
2) Combo isn't very much of the metagame right now, but that's exactly where Maverick has most struggled (since board control really isn't a thing at the moment.) That's why the deck plays the card. It's not dead in other matchups, which is why it can be maindecked, but a suped up Glowrider isn't the most amazing card if you're only planning on playing the mirror and Blade Control. In fact the restraints it puts on your own list can more than make up for what gains you have from it being in play.
Okay, so first of all this contradicts your earlier claim that these cards would be seeing heavy play regardless of what the metagame looked like.To say Lingering Souls won't see significant play in future metagames is not something mitigated by the strength of the card, but metagame trends. The card will be a staple as long as the metagame is relatively similar to what it resembles now. If it changes, maybe it won't be in the deck. But that isn't an argument against the card at all, so using that to dismiss it is irrational. Under that same claim, you could say the same thing for a number of other cards that are great in particular decks but have fallen out of favor, such as Natural Order.
Secondly, yes, a great number of cards are Legacy playable but may fall in and out of favor based on the metagame and, frankly, fads of the moment. I don't know why you think comparing Lingering Souls and Thalia to Natural Order does anything but strengthen my point.
You seem to be doing a lot more than that. Your article seems to suggest, or want to suggest that this set has changed the format in ways more vast than most recent sets, with Mirrodin block being a giant "flop" and Dark Ascension apparently having a "profound impact." But a few cards having a major splash is fairly par for the course. Thalia and Lingering Souls do nothing to buck this trend.Obviously no argument here those cards are stronger. But I'm not putting the DKA cards on pedestal or giving them unreal expectations by sticking them in any list I can. I simply highlighted how a couple cards have made a major splash in Legacy.
I don't know what you mean by this as an argument.The fact that they see play in other formats is irrelevant, especially considering they aren't nearly as popular or powerful as the cards from Zen-Scars standard. Cards blown up that big were bound to have that effect on Legacy brewers, these ones clearly won't.
Which is par for the course. CawBlade is the only example I can think of offhand where anything other than a very linear deck was sprung up in Legacy in counterpart to a Standard list, but correlation of individual cards tends to be very high. Lots of Zoo lists ran Bloodbraid Elf when it was the most popular card in Standard, Bitterblossom was everywhere when Faeries dominated, etc..Sure, except this isn't a case of people mimicking decks they play in other formats. Neither card is played in a similar deck something that is seen elsewhere. These were purely cases of improving archetypes, not adding gimmicks of comfort from other formats.
I know you've been playing 1.5 a bit longer than I have, but I can't think of a block or set that didn't cause a significant shift in the Legacy metagame. There was the Goblins bubble during which the top deck didn't really change much, but I think that was largely a matter of inertia, and certainly the other lists in the metagame fluctuated wildly.Over the past few years, there are obviously a few stronger candidates.
Thalia and Lingering Souls have not "redefined" either archetype they have been stuck in. I don't even know how how to begin to go over what loaded hyperbole this is. Lingering Souls has served to basically help kill a deck that was a thorn in Blade Control's side, RUG Tempo, helped largely by the fact that it got murdered by Maverick anyway. Thalia is just a better maindeck answer to combo than Gaddock Teeg.But I disagree that Dark Ascension's influence is "fairly middling" and also think it's stronger than Mirrodon Beseiged. Outside GSZ, Beseiged only had only a couple cards seen in mediocre decks or singletons like Thrun. Compare that to three cards that redefined archetypes and the addition of the best sideboard card in a long time. But again, this isn't my point so it's trivial to discuss. The point of the article (first half at least) was simply to illustrate the impact Dark Ascension is having on Legacy, not start a comparative analysis of recent decks and how they support Legacy.
GSZ did actually redefine several decks in Legacy and has become an actual honest to God format staple, something that Lingering Souls and Thalia have yet to do and, I would assert, never will. BSZ was also an important improvement over Stroke of Genius for Time Spiral decks, and I would say that Thrun is a very powerful and, if anything, greatly underplayed threat in Maverick decks right now, in addition to other green midrange decks. Tezzeret is also an incredibly powerful card that's been floating around the edges of the Legacy metagame, made several top 8's in different decks and is simply waiting to be broken, I think. Sword of Feast and Famine is easily the best of the Sword cycle outside maybe SoFI, and even Go for the Throat has seen steady amounts of play over other black removal in decks that don't have access to white.
All of which isn't amazing but is about as much as Dark Ascension has done. Certainly Thalia and Lingering Souls are seeing more play right now than any single other card from MBS other than GSZ (which easily trumps them both,) but Thalia seems little but yet another option for some Maverick lists to throw in, and Lingering Souls seems to be in the worse positioned deck. And the deck that runs it also leans on Batterskull, whose influence you seem to dismiss as a flop (and that was only one of a number of goodies New Phyrexia brought.)
It also frankly seems unaware to be making these assertions while acknowledging right at the beginning of your article how Legacy players try very hard to stick new cards into their decks.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
I think you overestimate Grafdigger's Cage and underestimate the impact of scars block. You conveniently forgot to mention all the robots that made legacy MUD possible, and Sneak & Show a DTB.
Grafdigger does nothing on its own. It's a pure hate card and those are automatically weaker than cards that do something else (Nihil SPellbomb / Scavenging Ooze)
The second part of your article is on the spot though. Especially the list of cards that address lingering souls and a lot of the other creatures in the format.
EDIT:
I don't think I know any block that has had so many new cards added to the legacy card pool as the Scars of Mirrodin block.
Myr Battlesphere <- Mud
Kuldotha Forgemaster <- Mud
Steel Hellkite <-Mud
Wurmcoil Engine <-Mud
Blightsteel Colossus <- Mud/Sneak&Show
Noxious Revival <- In certain sideboards, good with Counterbalance or against Surgical Extraction, also 2 mana plowunder with snapcaster mage
Gut Shot <- Sideboard spot removal in some builds
Batterskull <- It's everywhere in every format where SFM is legal
Mox Opal <- Mud/Affinity
Sword of Feast and Famine <- Still used today as the go-to sword
Sword of Body and Mind <- Used in the misstep era to provide protection against Goyf and Jace
Green Sun's Zenith <- The reason why green decks are winning
Dismember <- Merfolk finally has removal, dodges Spell Snare and is castable for 1 mana like Ghastly Demise / Innocent Blood if you're not in white
Mental Misstep <- Marks an entire era of magic
Surgical Extraction <- Anything with Snapcaster Mage
Tezzeret Agent of Bolas <- Bridgewalker, Affinity
Karn Liberated <- Mud/Turboeldrazi
Inkmoth Nexus <- During Misstep era this was used to equip swords on
Spellskite <- Protection PainterGrindstone
Jin-Gitaxias Core Augur <- Reanimator target
Elesh-Norn, Grand Cenobite <- Reanimator / Loyal Retainers target
Birthing Pod <- Nic Fit variants, although none of them are actually good
Ratchet Bomb <- Nigh obsoleted Powder Keg
Etched Champion <- Affinity
Gitaxian Probe <- Used with Cabal Therapy in Nic Fit/Comboesque builds
Go for the Throat <- Spot removal
Memnite <- Affinity
Arc Trail <- Used against SFM decks
Nihil Spellbomb <- Graveyard hate
Thrun, the Last Troll <- GSZ Target that trumps Jace, spot removal and deed
Phyrexian Revoker <- Death & Taxes, MUD
Spine of Ish-Sah <- Mud
Phyrexian Metamorph <- Mud, and some other decks that wish to copy Jitte/Batterskull or a creature
That is 33 cards off the top of my hat that see legacy play.
Zendikar block had Iona, Steppe Lynx, Into the Roil, Mindbreak Trap, Spell Pierce, Sphinx of Lost Truths, Bloodghast, Gatekeeper of Malakir, Ravenous Trap, Vampire Hexmage, Vampire Nighthawk, Goblin Guide, Punishing Fire, Warren Instigator, the five enemy color fetchlands, Valakut, Loam Lion, Stoneforge Mystic, Jace the Mind Sculptor, Abyssal Prosecutor, Searing Blaze, Joraga Warcaller, Nature's Claim, Terastodon, Basilisk Collar, Lodestone Golem, Bojuka Bog, Creeping Tarpit, Stirring Wildwood, Emrakul, Kozilek, Gideon Jura, Linvala, Coralhelm Commander, See Beyond, Consuming Vapors, Inquisition of Kozilek, Vengevine, and I'm not really even looking for the ones that saw play when they came out or I think are playable but haven't broken out yet, like Kargan Dragonlord for instance.
The problem with this is that there's nowhere clear to draw the line, so we have to be a bit more specific in looking for impact. So we should really limit it to talking about sets that redefine the metagame, which usually comes down to a few cards. Innistrad, New Phyrexia, and Mirrodin Besieged all introduced cards that created completely new decks and radically changed the balance of power. Dark Ascension introduced key new cards for a few decks and helped push another somewhat off the map, but aside from weakening RUG Tempo I don't think it's drastically redefined the meta. In fact, after almost a year of solid flux, I think this is the most stable Legacy's been in quite a while. The best (popular) decks are Esper-Stoneforge and Maverick, and Time Spiral, Dredge and RUG Tempo are out there as well.
(In a more serious note, probably the most important block in Legacy historically was Onslaught. It introduced Goblins as a serious deck, which would retain tier 1 status pretty much unmolested until the printing of Tarmogoyf, it brought in powerful white control cards that would make Rifter, MWC and U/W Landstill powerful for years to come, and it introduced storm combo with Tendrils and Brain Freeze. It also, most importantly, introduced the fetchlands and forever redefined the way manabases work. This highlight the problem, though, since aside from the manabase most of the block's other contributed have been eroded by time and a constant accumulation of power creep; Hell, Brain Freeze is now only a backup to the best High Tide deck.)
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
@IBA:
I don't recall any legacy deck running Into the Roil, Valakut, Stirring Wildwood, Linvala, See Beyond, Consuming Vapors, Gideon Jura or Searing Blaze. I think you are confused with extended.
The only deck that innistrad block has 'created', already existed, which is Pox. Please correct me if I'm wrong. It would be helpful if you would provide evidence/attempt to be more accurate with your statements.
I understand that your point is to show that more blocks than just SoM had many cards that made an impact, and that that impact can erode over time due to factors such as format evolution/banning/printing of better cards/going out of fashion. However, when you make claims that (at least I believe) are false, you are actively undermining valid contributions to the discussion and your own point.
Linvala and Gideon were both in multiple top 8 lists just this past weekend at Baltimore. Valakut is obviously in the Scapeshift decks. Consuming Vapors has been run in BUG lists like this one, Searing Blaze has shown up in Burn and Sligh, I and others have done well with Stirring Wildwood in Knight decks, and See Beyond and Into the Roil are in the category of cards that saw a bit of play when they first came out/when they were big in type 2 respectively, but faded off not long after... y'know, next to Arc Trail, Ratchet Bomb and Karn Liberated. They had a bit more legs than some others that got very quickly dumped, but were just weaker than existing cards.
We refer to a number of decks as "Delver Deck"s for a reason, i.e. RUG Delver, Delver-Burn. Like Maverick without GSZ, these decks could exist without Delver but would simply have no reason to do so. Delver takes point lead on a number of very aggressive blue-based strategies.The only deck that innistrad block has 'created', already existed, which is Pox. Please correct me if I'm wrong. It would be helpful if you would provide evidence/attempt to be more accurate with your statements.
I understand that your point is to show that more blocks than just SoM had many cards that made an impact, and that that impact can erode over time due to factors such as format evolution/banning/printing of better cards/going out of fashion. However, when you make claims that (at least I believe) are false, you are actively undermining valid contributions to the discussion and your own point.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Think harder. Linvala and Searing Blaze you can find from the current DTB section. Consuming Vapors, Valakut and Gideon Jura are not staples by any means but have made some high-profile appearances. See Beyond and Stirring wildwood are just crap, and Into the Roil is T2 material at best.
It's of course nice to get to say your opinion in every matter imaginable, but at least try to acquire some basic knowledge about the format you are arguing about.
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
I know Linvala is being suggested on thesource, but it has yet to make any appearances afaik and afa'deckcheck.de'k http://www.deckcheck.de/list.php?qui...per+of+Silence
Gideon Jura has exactly 0 results on deckcheck either since '99
http://www.deckcheck.de/list.php?qui...ch=gideon+jura
and Valakut http://www.deckcheck.de/list.php?quicksearch=valakut . There have been exactly 0 successful ports of the Valakut archetype to legacy.
Searing Blaze is the only card I wasn't aware of, which, from the search results comes up as a one off in burn.
Please point me to the high profile legacy appearances you claim exist for those cards before telling me I don't have basic knowledge of this format.
@IBA:
"delver deck" really isnt a new deck type. It's just an evolution of an existing deck. Just because someone named a thread after the latest toy, doesn't mean it's a new deck. Point taken on Consuming Vapors. Nevertheless, you've been rather generous labeling a list of cards that have little to no impact on legacy whereas the list that I made conssits of cards that either see play right now, or were instrumental in a past meta.
Several of the top 8 seemed to share the same list last weekend, which included both Linvala and Gideon in the sideboard. I don't know why Deckcheck isn't showing it, but then I didn't even know Deckcheck was still around.
If you search the SCG Open archives you'll also find a couple of Valakut decks in their top 16s. I don't know if we qualify that as "successful," but it certainly is by the standards of Pestermite. Speaking of just read that post I made, I already addressed this problem.
No one said these were all "high performance" cards; you're the one bringing up Spine of Ish-Sah, so really you need to stop moving the goal posts.
You know what here I'll just quote myself.
The problem with this is that there's nowhere clear to draw the line, so we have to be a bit more specific in looking for impact. So we should really limit it to talking about sets that redefine the metagame, which usually comes down to a few cards. Innistrad, New Phyrexia, and Mirrodin Besieged all introduced cards that created completely new decks and radically changed the balance of power. Dark Ascension introduced key new cards for a few decks and helped push another somewhat off the map, but aside from weakening RUG Tempo I don't think it's drastically redefined the meta. In fact, after almost a year of solid flux, I think this is the most stable Legacy's been in quite a while. The best (popular) decks are Esper-Stoneforge and Maverick, and Time Spiral, Dredge and RUG Tempo are out there as well.In the sense that it took a deck that sucked previously and made it tier 1 I guess? By that logic pretty close to nothing is a new deck. Blade Control is just Angel Control with a waffle iron attached.delver deck" really isnt a new deck type. It's just an evolution of an existing deck.
Spine.Just because someone named a thread after the latest toy, doesn't mean it's a new deck. Point taken on Consuming Vapors. Nevertheless, you've been rather generous labeling a list of cards that have little to no impact on legacy whereas the list that I made conssits of cards that either see play right now, or were instrumental in a past meta.
Of.
Ish.
Sah.
You know what, I'll just quote myself.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
You have repeatedly shown through your comments that you have at best a shaky grasp of the cards or the interactions of the format. Show and Tell into double cascade and other legacy gems like that. I'm pointing this pretty ad hominemous thing out because it really has bothered me in this forum how you have the urge to burp out your opinions in every matter and at the same time have so little knowledge about for example how specific format staples work.
If you're from the States, you probably follow the SCG Open series. Dan Signorini won one of them with his Team America which incorporated Sylvan Library and Vapors. Many followed his card choices, but in my opinion the card is good only if decent amount of Progenitus sees play in given tournament.
Gideon Jura makes regular appearances in white stax. Granted, the deck itself doesn't manage too well usually. Also, what IBA said regarding the last SCG results.
You don't have to know everything about the format. If you still want to try, at least make some research. Legacy is more than just deckcheck and even surprising new and old cards get playtime everytime there's a tournament somewhere. It's not like you knew everything, so don't act like it.
Some of my friends sell records,
some of my friends sell drugs.
This is being blown out of proportion. The article was not about comparing impacts from other sets, blocks, or whatever, or to list off every single possible card that's playable in them, so please stop analyzing that because it wasn't what I was discussing. It was simply showing that Dark Ascension happens to be a great set for Legacy. It's crazy how people are running like the wind with irrelevant tangents and such.
I believe you (and some others) may have misunderstood my feelings on SoM block. I illustrated SoM block as a great example of what I outlined as a block with an expected number of playables (I said 8-10 cards that'll see play, and 3-4 that will have a major impact) which is pretty accurate for cards of relevance although you can clearly argue more are playable. But that isn't the point. I merely demonstrated a single example on how a block as a whole has an impact on Legacy and the number of good cards it gives us. Nowhere did I actually evaulate the inherent strength of the block nor did I dismiss anything as being stronger or weaker than another block, and that goes for Dark Ascension as well.Well you grant that now, but previously you seemed to argue against this conclusion when you dismissed the impact of SoM block.
1. A card is that is providing a deck with a variety of new lines of play, fixing defensive problems against aggro, flying over a ground war, or killing opposing planeswalkers is a lot better than "acceptable." The card is a hell of a lot more relevant than Thrun given Thrun doesn't fulfill those roles like Lingering Souls does. On that note this goes back to the misunderstanding on my take of SoM block. I never dismissed Thrun, or any other cards in that block. The sole thing I even said on Thrun, and I'll just take this straight from the article, was "these are much more narrow in their applications and don't have as large of an impact." Thrun clearly sees play and is decent. It just only sees play as a single slot somewhere in the 75 of Maverick which is the point I was making, that the cards listed there are only seen in very specific strategies and won't really find homes elsewhere.1) Lingering Souls is not "good" in any matchup besides combo, it is "acceptable" in any matchup besides combo. There are lots of matchups where it isn't particularly great. In this it bears a lot of resemblance to a card like, say, Thrun, which you also dismiss in your article.
2) Combo isn't very much of the metagame right now, but that's exactly where Maverick has most struggled (since board control really isn't a thing at the moment.) That's why the deck plays the card. It's not dead in other matchups, which is why it can be maindecked, but a suped up Glowrider isn't the most amazing card if you're only planning on playing the mirror and Blade Control. In fact the restraints it puts on your own list can more than make up for what gains you have from it being in play.
2. The mirror and blade decks aren't the only matchups you'll face. Is it somehow not relevant against RUG or anything else, especially given those decks run few lands and are susceptible to Wasteland? And the fact that it isn't dead in matchups beyond combo is why it's good, and why it's maindecked. Sure it's not on par with Stoneforge Mystic in strength, but if it's hate card that happens to be good enough to see maindeck play then it sure as hell isn't because it's merely "okay."
I didn't say it would see "heavy" play, I said it would see play. There is a significant difference there, so don't twist twist words to support your point. If the metagame shifts unfavorably towards it then it's only natural it will decrease in popularity, but that doesn't mean it'd go into the realm of unplayable. I don't believe either card is a fad of the moment and will continue to see play regardless. You clearly disagree and that's fine.Okay, so first of all this contradicts your earlier claim that these cards would be seeing heavy play regardless of what the metagame looked like.
Secondly, yes, a great number of cards are Legacy playable but may fall in and out of favor based on the metagame and, frankly, fads of the moment. I don't know why you think comparing Lingering Souls and Thalia to Natural Order does anything but strengthen my point.
I can disregard the first part of this because I've already addressed the misunderstanding of SoM block twice. On the actual point here, so what if I hype Dark Ascension to that level? Because I think it will help foster a change in landscape? While you might believe these cards are on par with others, I think it's more. UW Stoneblade is going to dwindle in numbers and Esper will grow because black is a terrific color right now. Discard helps virtually all matchups, and Perish shores up a shaky aggro match. Thalia forces combo players to reevaluate their sideboards and then makes them weaker to other matchups because they devote so much time to deal with hate bears. Those two points alone can cause drastic shifts over time, and I think these are the beginning of that. Dark Ascension having a "profound impact" does not necessarily revolve around the cards themselves, but the changes that they will have on the surrounding decks that will ultimately cause additional metagame shifting and evolution. I probably could've outlined that better in the article itself.You seem to be doing a lot more than that. Your article seems to suggest, or want to suggest that this set has changed the format in ways more vast than most recent sets, with Mirrodin block being a giant "flop" and Dark Ascension apparently having a "profound impact." But a few cards having a major splash is fairly par for the course. Thalia and Lingering Souls do nothing to buck this trend.
Is morphing an entire archetype from straight UW to Esper, and thus drastically changing it both in playstyle, matchups, and strategies not redefinition? Again, if you think Lingering Souls' use is merely limited to helping RUG and Maverick, my entire point on the card is lost on you here. I could excuse using Thalia in that example as hyperbole, but Lingering Souls is much more to me.Thalia and Lingering Souls have not "redefined" either archetype they have been stuck in. I don't even know how how to begin to go over what loaded hyperbole this is. Lingering Souls has served to basically help kill a deck that was a thorn in Blade Control's side, RUG Tempo, helped largely by the fact that it got murdered by Maverick anyway. Thalia is just a better maindeck answer to combo than Gaddock Teeg.
GSZ, along with Batterskull (which I outlined in the article as a staple with a serious impact) were among the redefining cards of that block that had huge implications over the format. I actually missed Sword of Feast and Famine in my list, so that would've been included. The card hasn't been as popular as of late over other swords and it slipped my mind. I ended up omitting cards like BSZ, Tezzeret, and Thrun (and things of that nature) from that list because they've either only seen little play, play as a singleton, or play in a single fringe deck. The list of cards I provided as staples for SoM block were what I think have had the biggest impact and seen the most play. That doesn't mean I dismissed anything else, it simply means they haven't had that level of success the others have. Tezzeret is a great example of this, as the card is clearly ridiculous and has had some time in the spotlight, but that's very little compared to the rest of that block. Compare this to two cards that have had a little under two months of play, and one won a Grand Prix and spawned 5/16 top16 slots at the Invitational and the other had multiples in the GP top8 and overran SCG Baltimore.GSZ did actually redefine several decks in Legacy and has become an actual honest to God format staple, something that Lingering Souls and Thalia have yet to do and, I would assert, never will. BSZ was also an important improvement over Stroke of Genius for Time Spiral decks, and I would say that Thrun is a very powerful and, if anything, greatly underplayed threat in Maverick decks right now, in addition to other green midrange decks. Tezzeret is also an incredibly powerful card that's been floating around the edges of the Legacy metagame, made several top 8's in different decks and is simply waiting to be broken, I think. Sword of Feast and Famine is easily the best of the Sword cycle outside maybe SoFI, and even Go for the Throat has seen steady amounts of play over other black removal in decks that don't have access to white.
All of which isn't amazing but is about as much as Dark Ascension has done. Certainly Thalia and Lingering Souls are seeing more play right now than any single other card from MBS other than GSZ (which easily trumps them both,) but Thalia seems little but yet another option for some Maverick lists to throw in, and Lingering Souls seems to be in the worse positioned deck. And the deck that runs it also leans on Batterskull, whose influence you seem to dismiss as a flop (and that was only one of a number of goodies New Phyrexia brought.)
It also frankly seems unaware to be making these assertions while acknowledging right at the beginning of your article how Legacy players try very hard to stick new cards into their decks.
Also, these assertions had nothing to do with my statement at the very beginning of the article given that neither of these cards saw significant play (or really any at all) for a while. Indianapolis was roughly six weeks after Dark Ascension was released. That isn't exactly "trying very hard to stick new cards in lists" given that amount of time passed, and even then I highlighted in the article that Thalia hadn't even shown up in a top8 Maverick list until SCG Tampa.
Okay, done with Jack. Moving on.
My opinion on Grafdigger's Cage is only as relevant as there are targets for the card to prey on, so currently it's possible my feelings on it are overestimated. My point on it was if the metagame continues to climb in this direction, the card will only get better. The fact that it has applications against a variety of the top decks makes it attractive as a sideboard option.I think you overestimate Grafdigger's Cage and underestimate the impact of scars block. You conveniently forgot to mention all the robots that made legacy MUD possible, and Sneak & Show a DTB.
Grafdigger does nothing on its own. It's a pure hate card and those are automatically weaker than cards that do something else (Nihil SPellbomb / Scavenging Ooze)
Again on SoM block, most of that was covered above. I only didn't mention stuff like robots because I used only a couple examples to illustrate my point on the set. The robots were great for a deck like MUD. The only problem is that MUD is still only a tier 2-3 deck at best, so it wasn't worth covering in the article.
This is for true.(In a more serious note, probably the most important block in Legacy historically was Onslaught. It introduced Goblins as a serious deck, which would retain tier 1 status pretty much unmolested until the printing of Tarmogoyf, it brought in powerful white control cards that would make Rifter, MWC and U/W Landstill powerful for years to come, and it introduced storm combo with Tendrils and Brain Freeze. It also, most importantly, introduced the fetchlands and forever redefined the way manabases work. This highlight the problem, though, since aside from the manabase most of the block's other contributed have been eroded by time and a constant accumulation of power creep; Hell, Brain Freeze is now only a backup to the best High Tide deck.)
Really enjoyed the article, definitely left me interested to hear more of what you have to say.
As far as the strategy content is concerned, I agree with your conclusions that combo seems like a good answer to what the meta is shaping up to be. I expect the actual effect will be weaker than one should expect, though, because the typically very high skill-cap of combo-decks in combination with their unusual playstyles limits the number of people that can bring those decks to tournaments and succeed.
It's easy for most proficient players to pick up something like Blade or Maverick close to cold and play it well enough to win a solid amount of matches. Doing the same with Tide, Tendrils or Dredge (assuming people play gy-hate at all) requires either more training with that specific deck or more experience with these types of decks in general - which a lot of players don't have, be it because they mainly play non-Eternal formats or because they always preferred to play "fairer" decks and are therefore not used to the way they work.
I think it's no coincidence that Reanimator (before all the gy-hate) and Show and Tell decks have been more common sights in Top eights than the more complex spell chain decks (that usually show up in the hands of long time players of such decks).
Better get used to that happening - one of my article threads contained at least as much discussion of the fact that I included a bonus section (thus labeled, even) tournament report with Caw Cartel (UW control) and how that was evidence of intellectual dishonesty (because the article told people how to beat blue control) as actual comments on the main article's content.
People just love to focus on things that aren't the articles supposed focus. Mind, it means they read your article and it touched them enough to talk about something you've written - which I see as a net positive.
In the context of that debate, and purely as constructive criticism on your writing style (as that's something I'd very much enjoy to get for my articles):
The beginning of your article at first gave me the same impression that you were claiming Dark Ascension had much more of an impact than most other blocks/sets. I think this stems from the fact of how powerfully you set up the contrast between paragraph two and paragraphs three & four:
P2:
"Out of the entire block, the only cards"
"much more narrow"
"although I will note that the addition of Jin-Gitaxias"
P3&4:
"turned the Legacy world upside-down"
"enormous impact on the format"
"Dark Ascension pretty much took Indianapolis by storm"
"new major players"
The effect is reinforced by the (very well crafted) seemingly low impact into actual high impact transition between paragraph 3 and paragraph 4.
All of this leads to your quite correct estimation of "the number of influential new Legacy playables arriving with Dark Ascension is quite high" being easily misinterpreted as "wow, Dark Ascension has more playables than all of Scars block".
Hope this was useful.
I don't have low self-esteem, I have low esteem for everyone else. -Daria
Proud member of Team CAB
High Priest of the Church of BLA
CAB JaceTM
My articles
Wow.
Follow me on Twitter @RaNDoMxGeSTuReS
Gideon Jura has shown up a couple of time before baltimore in sideboards and will probly see more play now when it was in more boards in baltimore then ever before.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote