Sort of Budget Sedris EDH

[jcsy]

Shit it does say opponent doesn't it. I thought it was target player.

Meh

yes it says for target opponent

unless you run Scion of Darkness or Puppeteer Clique, then buried alive opponents usually its not smart

my group runs alot of grave recursions

from
Sword of Light and Shadow
Eternal Witness
Academy Ruins
Volrath's Stronghold
Sun Titan and Primordials :D

I currently make sure I can steal from opponents table, library, graveyard.
im lacking Sower of Temptation but mainly thats because its expensive :D

how is Sundial of the infinite working for you?

[TsumiBand]

yes it says for target opponent

unless you run Scion of Darkness or Puppeteer Clique, then buried alive opponents usually its not smart

my group runs alot of grave recursions

from
Sword of Light and Shadow
Eternal Witness
Academy Ruins
Volrath's Stronghold
Sun Titan and Primordials :D

I currently make sure I can steal from opponents table, library, graveyard.
im lacking Sower of Temptation but mainly thats because its expensive :D

how is Sundial of the infinite working for you?

I never ran Sundial because it is so limited in scope. Really my only Unearth-forever enabler is DEN.

I realize Deadeye Navigator has a huge target on it in this format, but that's because he is so good at what he does that in a deck like this there is literally no reason not to play it. It makes Sedris itself a reasonable play - for that reason alone it is just an auto-include - apart from the Void Maw technology you've pointed out to me the other controllable exile effects I have looked at are mostly one-shots or just too awkward to really implement realistically.

[TsumiBand]

...except DEN doesn't enable unearth forever. According to 702.83a, if the unearthed creature would leave the battlefield for anywhere else, it is exiled instead. That means that instead of it being exiled for DEN's ability, it is just exiled and won't be returning.

No, I get to choose which replacement effect exiles it. Unearth specifically says this:

702.83. Unearth
702.82a Unearth is an activated ability that functions while the card with unearth is in a graveyard. "Unearth [cost]" means "[Cost]: Return this card from your graveyard to the battlefield. It gains haste. Exile it at the beginning of the next end step. If it would leave the battlefield, exile it instead of putting it anywhere else. Activate this ability only any time you could cast a sorcery."

The printed Unearth text glosses over that wording, but the key phrase is "instead of putting it anywhere else". Deadeye Navigator doesn't try to put it "anywhere else"; it tries to exile it. The player is then able to choose which effect applies, since two replacement effects are trying to do the same thing.

10/1/2008 If a creature returned to the battlefield with unearth would leave the battlefield for any reason, it's exiled instead -- unless the spell or ability that's causing the creature to leave the battlefield is actually trying to exile it! In that case, it succeeds at exiling it. If it later returns the creature card to the battlefield (as Oblivion Ring or Flickerwisp might, for example), the creature card will return to the battlefield as a new object with no relation to its previous existence. The unearth effect will no longer apply to it.

I wasn't actually aware of this trick when I first started building the deck around Sedris -- originally this pile was random Grixis jank featuring Sol'Kanar the Swamp King. I soon realized that Sol'Kanar does nothing and that Sedris + DEN at least has a shot at being both a reanimation spell as well as an ETB abuser. Palinchron ended up in the deck soon after, which led to using Bogardan Hellkite as an easy combo win.

This is why jscy's suggestion of Void Maw is intriguing, because I would be able to similarly overwrite Unearth's LTB trigger by exiling it to Void Maw + some kind of sacrifice outlet. DEN's shenanigans in many many EDH decks are well-traveled and he is hated by many - for this reason having an alternative means of trying to capitalize on ETB effects would be a not-terrible idea - plus Void Maw becomes arbitrarily large as the creature is dumped back into the bin from exile. Unfortunately it's a bit fragile because Void Maw in play under like a Wrath or something would exile all my in-play guys (as well as rrryone else's) and put Void Maw in the graveyard, thus exiling all the things fairly forever-ish. So I'd have to be cautious at the very least while it's in play.

[jcsy]

No, I get to choose which replacement effect exiles it. Unearth specifically says this:



The printed Unearth text glosses over that wording, but the key phrase is "instead of putting it anywhere else". Deadeye Navigator doesn't try to put it "anywhere else"; it tries to exile it. The player is then able to choose which effect applies, since two replacement effects are trying to do the same thing.



I wasn't actually aware of this trick when I first started building the deck around Sedris -- originally this pile was random Grixis jank featuring Sol'Kanar the Swamp King. I soon realized that Sol'Kanar does nothing and that Sedris + DEN at least has a shot at being both a reanimation spell as well as an ETB abuser. Palinchron ended up in the deck soon after, which led to using Bogardan Hellkite as an easy combo win.

This is why jscy's suggestion of Void Maw is intriguing, because I would be able to similarly overwrite Unearth's LTB trigger by exiling it to Void Maw + some kind of sacrifice outlet. DEN's shenanigans in many many EDH decks are well-traveled and he is hated by many - for this reason having an alternative means of trying to capitalize on ETB effects would be a not-terrible idea - plus Void Maw becomes arbitrarily large as the creature is dumped back into the bin from exile. Unfortunately it's a bit fragile because Void Maw in play under like a Wrath or something would exile all my in-play guys (as well as rrryone else's) and put Void Maw in the graveyard, thus exiling all the things fairly forever-ish. So I'd have to be cautious at the very least while it's in play.

a wrath effect is usually SORCERY speed, which means you already got them under Void Maw before your end step (usually via sac outlet towards unearth) , and already able to put them into your grave back at instant speed as well if such a need arises

unless you are talking about Cyclonic Rift or Evacuation
then you need to sac in response, exile via void maw, send it to grave via void maw, let the mass bounce resolve

i don't think there is a situation where the cards under Void Maw exiled with its first ability will result in exiling ALL of the things under it.
unless the opponent kills/removes/bounces it with a SPLIT SECOND spell, then all gets exiled together :D

correct me if im wrong?

[TsumiBand]

a wrath effect is usually SORCERY speed, which means you already got them under Void Maw before your end step (usually via sac outlet towards unearth) , and already able to put them into your grave back at instant speed as well if such a need arises

unless you are talking about Cyclonic Rift or Evacuation
then you need to sac in response, exile via void maw, send it to grave via void maw, let the mass bounce resolve

i don't think there is a situation where the cards under Void Maw exiled with its first ability will result in exiling ALL of the things under it.
unless the opponent kills/removes/bounces it with a SPLIT SECOND spell, then all gets exiled together :D

correct me if im wrong?

If I have a sac outlet, then it's fine; I sac to whatever (Goblin Bombardment, let's pretend - not very good probably, but who cares), Void Maw exiles them (regardless of Unearth or not) and then put them back in the yard with Void Maw's second ability. Void Maw can't exile itself to its ability, since it says "If another creature would die...", and so Void Maw dies when the whatever-speed Wrath effect occurs.

If I do not have a sacrifice outlet and a player Wraths, Void Maw's first ability will apply to all creatures and replace the Unearth's exile effect, then Void Maw will also die. Since Void Maw is toast, the cards just remain exiled - there was never a chance to activate Void Maw's second ability, and since it is in the graveyard now (or hand, in the case of Cyclonic Rift) it would be treated as a different object so it cannot return cards the game doesn't remember it exiled.

This might not be all bad, since Void Maw can exile opponent's creatures as well (it does not mention "creatures you control" after all). So the potential exists for me to exile everyone's creatures while also saving mine via the aforementioned sacrifice outlet, playing Void Maw's second ability, and then letting it die along with everyone else's creatures. Void Maw would then sit in my graveyard ready to return via whatever madness I choose to employ. Additionally if it is a damage based sweeper, like Starstorm or Blasphemous Act, I'm well able to pump my Void Maw to a survivable fatness and just choose to never return my opponent's terrible creatures. So that might not suck, like, at all.

[Aggro_zombies]

No, I get to choose which replacement effect exiles it. Unearth specifically says this:



The printed Unearth text glosses over that wording, but the key phrase is "instead of putting it anywhere else". Deadeye Navigator doesn't try to put it "anywhere else"; it tries to exile it. The player is then able to choose which effect applies, since two replacement effects are trying to do the same thing.



I wasn't actually aware of this trick when I first started building the deck around Sedris -- originally this pile was random Grixis jank featuring Sol'Kanar the Swamp King. I soon realized that Sol'Kanar does nothing and that Sedris + DEN at least has a shot at being both a reanimation spell as well as an ETB abuser. Palinchron ended up in the deck soon after, which led to using Bogardan Hellkite as an easy combo win.

This is why jscy's suggestion of Void Maw is intriguing, because I would be able to similarly overwrite Unearth's LTB trigger by exiling it to Void Maw + some kind of sacrifice outlet. DEN's shenanigans in many many EDH decks are well-traveled and he is hated by many - for this reason having an alternative means of trying to capitalize on ETB effects would be a not-terrible idea - plus Void Maw becomes arbitrarily large as the creature is dumped back into the bin from exile. Unfortunately it's a bit fragile because Void Maw in play under like a Wrath or something would exile all my in-play guys (as well as rrryone else's) and put Void Maw in the graveyard, thus exiling all the things fairly forever-ish. So I'd have to be cautious at the very least while it's in play.

Oh, huh, interesting. I thought it was a blanket replacement effect, but this is interesting.

Deleted my post since I was wrong.

[jcsy]

If I do not have a sacrifice outlet and a player Wraths, Void Maw's first ability will apply to all creatures and replace the Unearth's exile effect, then Void Maw will also die. Since Void Maw is toast, the cards just remain exiled - there was never a chance to activate Void Maw's second ability, and since it is in the graveyard now (or hand, in the case of Cyclonic Rift) it would be treated as a different object so it cannot return cards the game doesn't remember it exiled.

Ah I see now where this was going. You would definitely lose the creatures you have on the table (at the point of wrath) but you would already lost them at EOT due to unearth (2 exiles stacking each other)

If you say for example, have a few creatures (Not unearthed), then you would lose those forever

For example 2 situations;

Turn 7;

• Void maw in play
• Unearth : Bogardan Hellkite
• Sac outlet : Sacrifice Bogardan Hellkite
• Exile under Void Maw
• Opponent wrath (Sorcery)
• Dump Bogardan Hellkite to the graveyard
• You get to still bring Void Maw & Hellkite from the grave again later

OR

Turn 7;

• Void maw, Bone Shredder, Mulldrifter in play
• No sac outlet!!
• No unearth on table
• Opponent Wrath (Sorcery)
• You will never see Void Maw + Bone Shredder and Mulldrifter again because all exiled, lol :D (blame Void Maw)

So it very much depends on a few things;

1. Void maw being in play
2. Sac outlet
3. What you unearth'ed and what you have already in play

Correct me if I'm wrong on the understanding but thats about it
Its interesting however is situational
You definitely need a sac outlet to actually play Void Maw effectively and prevent exiling

[TsumiBand]

Ah I see now where this was going. You would definitely lose the creatures you have on the table (at the point of wrath) but you would already lost them at EOT due to unearth (2 exiles stacking each other)

If you say for example, have a few creatures (Not unearthed), then you would lose those forever

For example 2 situations;

Turn 7;

• Void maw in play
• Unearth : Bogardan Hellkite
• Sac outlet : Sacrifice Bogardan Hellkite
• Exile under Void Maw
• Opponent wrath (Sorcery)
• Dump Bogardan Hellkite to the graveyard
• You get to still bring Void Maw & Hellkite from the grave again later

OR

Turn 7;

• Void maw, Bone Shredder, Mulldrifter in play
• No sac outlet!!
• No unearth on table
• Opponent Wrath (Sorcery)
• You will never see Void Maw + Bone Shredder and Mulldrifter again because all exiled, lol :D (blame Void Maw)

So it very much depends on a few things;

1. Void maw being in play
2. Sac outlet
3. What you unearth'ed and what you have already in play

Correct me if I'm wrong on the understanding but thats about it
Its interesting however is situational
You definitely need a sac outlet to actually play Void Maw effectively and prevent exiling

I'm pretty sure that's right, since Unearth's EOT exile trigger never tries to send the creature to the graveyard so Void Maw's replacement effect cannot apply. A sac outlet is mandatory. That's part of the reason why I have stalled a bit on adding Void Maw to my pile; even though it is a "manaless" substitute for DEN in regard to skirting Unearth's exile clause, I'm not entirely sure it is worth needing +1 combo piece (sac outlet) to really be worth the investment. I mean, for one, the deck can already play Palinchron + DEN and just make infinite mana off of three lands, or reanimate Mika + Trike and win the day like a douchebag, so inasmuch as two-card combos go my deck's already sold. I do really like Void Maw, but it needs to be a situation where I feel like I'm reliably able to activate it. I'll scope your list again as I take it you're probably getting a lot out of that interaction.

[jcsy]

I'm pretty sure that's right, since Unearth's EOT exile trigger never tries to send the creature to the graveyard so Void Maw's replacement effect cannot apply. A sac outlet is mandatory. That's part of the reason why I have stalled a bit on adding Void Maw to my pile; even though it is a "manaless" substitute for DEN in regard to skirting Unearth's exile clause, I'm not entirely sure it is worth needing +1 combo piece (sac outlet) to really be worth the investment. I mean, for one, the deck can already play Palinchron + DEN and just make infinite mana off of three lands, or reanimate Mika + Trike and win the day like a douchebag, so inasmuch as two-card combos go my deck's already sold. I do really like Void Maw, but it needs to be a situation where I feel like I'm reliably able to activate it. I'll scope your list again as I take it you're probably getting a lot out of that interaction.

nah, i dont run many sac outlets. If I would, I would run stuff like Phyrexian Altar and maybe Attrition

these might fuel more mana/destroy in order to make more use out of it :D

at the moment, I found void maw to be just another beat stick :D
might remove him entirely

[TsumiBand]

nah, i dont run many sac outlets. If I would, I would run stuff like Phyrexian Altar and maybe Attrition

these might fuel more mana/destroy in order to make more use out of it :D

at the moment, I found void maw to be just another beat stick :D
might remove him entirely

I wouldn't pull it just yet, I feel like there's probably just some undiscovered technology lying in wait - Devour, for example, would lend itself to recursive effects via Void Maw + Sedris pretty well. There's also that artifact I don't remember what it's called, its ability is , sac a guy: draw a card. I'll bet there is something worth taking a look at re: Void Maw.

[jcsy]

I wouldn't pull it just yet, I feel like there's probably just some undiscovered technology lying in wait - Devour, for example, would lend itself to recursive effects via Void Maw + Sedris pretty well. There's also that artifact I don't remember what it's called, its ability is , sac a guy: draw a card. I'll bet there is something worth taking a look at re: Void Maw.

There are other options as well such as Altar of Dementia but that would go over the word Budget :D

If you are looking at purely keeping stuff (without using Void Maw), I believe Teferi's Veil also works as Phasing is secret tech

[TsumiBand]

There are other options as well such as Altar of Dementia but that would go over the word Budget :D

If you are looking at purely keeping stuff (without using Void Maw), I believe Teferi's Veil also works as Phasing is secret tech

Well but there's lots of things too like Carnage Altar or Goblin Bombardment that don't tap to activate and thus you could theoretically re-use it a few times per turn. So one could like Unearth for and sac to Bombardment, then give Void Maw +2/+2 and replay the Unearth ability. Depending on which creature it is you're also milking the ETB/LTB triggers for great justice.

[jcsy]

Well but there's lots of things too like Carnage Altar or Goblin Bombardment that don't tap to activate and thus you could theoretically re-use it a few times per turn. So one could like Unearth for and sac to Bombardment, then give Void Maw +2/+2 and replay the Unearth ability. Depending on which creature it is you're also milking the ETB/LTB triggers for great justice.

with the right pieces, it looks like its slightly better than Deadeye Navigator :D

i would still call Ashnod's Altar & Void Maw better, since it sort of makes it look , unearth something, +2/+2 on void maw (has trample), gain an ETB effect, repeat depending on how many mana you have

PS: Forgive me, Altar of Dementiaor Phyrexian Altar are expensive. Budgeting it up with Ashnod's Altar

[TsumiBand]

with the right pieces, it looks like its slightly better than Deadeye Navigator :D

i would still call Ashnod's Altar & Void Maw better, since it sort of makes it look , unearth something, +2/+2 on void maw (has trample), gain an ETB effect, repeat depending on how many mana you have

PS: Forgive me, Altar of Dementiaor Phyrexian Altar are expensive. Budgeting it up with Ashnod's Altar

Right, I mean it's totally the Voltron Assemble Hour, but a reasonable critter-based sacrifice-but-not combo might give Sedris a reason to live as well - so much of the time I don't even have to cast him, and that's just tragic. But a Void Maw/Sedris acoustic tour would be pretty sweet. I'm definitely scouring Gatherer every couple of intervals for something neat. It's a good catch, even if it is another "aw shucks I'm an engine with no real home" card.

[jcsy]

Right, I mean it's totally the Voltron Assemble Hour, but a reasonable critter-based sacrifice-but-not combo might give Sedris a reason to live as well - so much of the time I don't even have to cast him, and that's just tragic. But a Void Maw/Sedris acoustic tour would be pretty sweet. I'm definitely scouring Gatherer every couple of intervals for something neat. It's a good catch, even if it is another "aw shucks I'm an engine with no real home" card.

well i just picked up some cheap cards to include into my list

Wild Ricochet
Molten Primordial
Cyclonic Rift
Gem of becoming
Archaeomancer


this might help a little :)

i've removed Void Maw because as you said, its an engine-with-no-real-home card without a sac outlet (ive not put 1 in yet but not going to bother much)

[TsumiBand]

well i just picked up some cheap cards to include into my list

Wild Ricochet
Molten Primordial
Cyclonic Rift
Gem of becoming
Archaeomancer


this might help a little :)

i've removed Void Maw because as you said, its an engine-with-no-real-home card without a sac outlet (ive not put 1 in yet but not going to bother much)

See, and I'm about to cut some jank to put that guy in. LOL. I will find a way to make it work. If for no other reason than I kind of feel like a dick playing infinite mana combos and then whining about how Sedris doesn't matter. I prefer EDH decks that do rely on the commander to win, instead of just enabling 5-color goodStuff.dec to win the day.

Especially if you're going to use things like Molten Primordial and its friends like Zealous Conscripts I would encourage you to include Deadeye Navigator. You can blink any creatures they steal which of course has the same upshot as it does with Unearth; the permanent leaves play and returns and is treated as a new object. You don't own it of course, but you do control it indefinitely - the game will not remember the "until end of turn" clause of the sneak-thief you used to grab it.

I tried Gem of Becoming for a minute but I got rid of it. I might try it again. Some of the CIPT mana rocks are dumb and I hate them, so yeah.

[jcsy]

See, and I'm about to cut some jank to put that guy in. LOL. I will find a way to make it work. If for no other reason than I kind of feel like a dick playing infinite mana combos and then whining about how Sedris doesn't matter. I prefer EDH decks that do rely on the commander to win, instead of just enabling 5-color goodStuff.dec to win the day.

Especially if you're going to use things like Molten Primordial and its friends like Zealous Conscripts I would encourage you to include Deadeye Navigator. You can blink any creatures they steal which of course has the same upshot as it does with Unearth; the permanent leaves play and returns and is treated as a new object. You don't own it of course, but you do control it indefinitely - the game will not remember the "until end of turn" clause of the sneak-thief you used to grab it.

I tried Gem of Becoming for a minute but I got rid of it. I might try it again. Some of the CIPT mana rocks are dumb and I hate them, so yeah.

managed to get a play test of Molten Primordial today, and definitely was worth keeping in hand (i discarded a bunch of fatties only to be xiled by Bojuka Bog)
also managed to test Cyclonic Rift, and thats good any day even as a 2 mana bounce

i think the signets are decent as mana rocks, but not things like Worn Powerstone :D
felt slow and we can always use mana

im using Deadeye Navigator already, but havent yet abuse him... definitely will get killed on sight so mostly saving him
afraid others might even abuse it

i used to use Dreamstone Hedron but I think Gem of Becoming might be better, heck i'm even sure Thran Dynamo is better, lol

[TsumiBand]

managed to get a play test of Molten Primordial today, and definitely was worth keeping in hand (i discarded a bunch of fatties only to be xiled by Bojuka Bog)
also managed to test Cyclonic Rift, and thats good any day even as a 2 mana bounce

i think the signets are decent as mana rocks, but not things like Worn Powerstone :D
felt slow and we can always use mana

im using Deadeye Navigator already, but havent yet abuse him... definitely will get killed on sight so mostly saving him
afraid others might even abuse it

i used to use Dreamstone Hedron but I think Gem of Becoming might be better, heck i'm even sure Thran Dynamo is better, lol

Mostly I was referring to the Diamonds - Fire Diamond and friends. I have enough cheap ETB tapped lands :P and the hands with the best acceleration don't generally have those guys in it, just Signets and Sol Ring/Thran/Gilded Lotus, so why bother with lousy mana rocks that suck.

Yeah DEN needs to be kept safe. That's part of the reason I like Draining Whelk in the deck, because he can work with DEN to keep himself safe.

[jcsy]

ah those?!

those are quite terrible, lol

signets definitely better.. i did encounter slow early turns because of no-ramp-green situations

also don't have a spare

sol ring
thran dynamo
gilded lotus


need to find better mana rocks to speed into mana turns 4-6 where our stuff are heavier and better

[jcsy]

I also was wondering whether this creature would work

Wormfang Drake