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Thread: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)

  1. #801

    Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)


    4 Stoneforge Mystic
    1 Batterskull
    1 Kaldra Compleat
    4 Triumph of Saint Katherine

    4 Solitude
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    4 Prismatic Ending

    3 Armageddon
    1 Bloodmoon

    4 Tithe
    4 Land Tax
    4 Enlightened Tutor

    4 Scroll Rack
    4 Mox Diamond
    3 Crucible of Worlds
    1 Zuran Orb

    4 Ghost Quarter
    4 Wasteland
    4 Horizon Canopy
    4 Silent Clearing
    4 Sunbaked Canyon
    1 Plateau
    1 Eiganjo, Seat of the Empire
    1 Mountain
    9 Plains

    Sideboard
    1 Yorion, Sky Nomad
    4 Deafening Silence
    3 Ethersworn Canonist
    1 Null Rod
    1 Stony Silence
    4 Rest in Peace
    1 Helm of Obedience


    My believe is that we need to control the number of our lands by using Mox Diamond and the Horizon Canopy, Silent Clearing and Sunbaked Canyon to get Land Tax activation or Tithe bonus land. We can sacrifice them to control the number of lands we control. Same with Wasteland and Ghost Quarter and we add Crucible of Worlds to get the lock or a way to draw cards with the Canopy and its friends. Zuran Orb gives us the possibility of sacrificing every other land for the same purpose.

    That's why it is a Yorion deck. I wanted all that. I splashed red for a single Bloodmoon. The multicolor manabase (don't forget Mox Diamond) let us play Prismatic Ending in a monowhite deck if it works ! And because we are mono white, we can play 4 Solitude (Yorion pitches here), I believe.

    4 Swords to Plowshares, 4 Prismatic Ending and 4 Solitude in the same deck !

    The creatures have lifelink because we play a ton of painlands.

    I tried to make room for 4 Urza's Saga + 1 Shadowspear to add more lifelinker and another way to tutor for Zuran Orb but I can't find how.

    The sideboard is there to have a chance against combo to which we lose game 1.

    The plan is removals, attacks, 8 wastelands, Armaggedon, reload, repeat and win hopefully. Bloodmoon is here as a better Winter Orb.

    Thank you for reading my long post.

  2. #802
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    Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)

    Basic competitive concepts:
    -if we see Crucible in the main, there is a 99.99% chance that it should be a Karn, and that there should be exactly 1x Crucible living in a SB slot, if you wanted this effect.
    -Scroll Rack had been replaced by Currency Converter in the main. You play Saga, so play the tutorable lands-to-cards artifact. You have added Karn, so you can play a Scroll Rack in the wishboard.
    -You will never put Blood Moon in a 4x Saga deck.
    -Tithe is always Timeless Dragon.
    -You will not use artifacts and play a symmetrical Null Rod effect. This is Karn.
    -We play March over Ending in 1c and 2c decks...especially b/c Karn wishes Liquimetal, which makes their lands into artifacts, which March can target (Ending can't).

    So many other problems, but these changes above are mandatory. Also have actual tutor targets for Saga - you literally only have Mox and a Zuran Orb.

  3. #803
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    Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)

    Agree with Fox.

    Karn, the Great Creator main is better than Null Rod SB. 1-sided hate and artifact tutor. Then you can move Crucible to the SB as a 1-of (or 1 main 1 SB), to avoid that awkward scenario where you draw redundant Crucibles. You already play ETutor so you can get value from a few 1-of silver bullet artifacts. For example, Karn & ETutor both get Canonist against Storm.

    The best self-sacrificing land is Urza's Saga! If you want sacrificing lands to control land count, start with 4 Saga. Saga into Zuran Orb then gives perfect control of land count. Saga into Currency Converter converts extra lands into cards. Saga also makes creatures. Saga is one of the best lands to replay with Crucible. Overall Saga is much more value than you get from Horizon Canopy.

    If you're playing stuff like Armageddon and Saga -> Zuran Orb, 3-4 Flagstones of Trokair is free value. Also Cosmic Intervention.

    Alpine Moon is more 1-sided than Blood Moon once you're playing so many utility lands. Otherwise Blood Moon hurts you too. Blood Moon also has this small problem about turning enemy Dark Depths into Marit Lage.

  4. #804

    Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)

    Iíve been going through some of these posts and I have a few questions?

    1. Is enlightened tutor playable in legacy right now?

    2. Has anyone tried lotus field? (Got the idea from aspiringspike RW Nahiri/Blink Deck.)

    3. What about Fable of the Mirror Breaker and Nettlecyst?

    4. As a fun of, how about Reconstruct History? Seems like a draw 5 for 4 in this deck.

  5. #805

    Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)

    Quote Originally Posted by CRich3 View Post
    Iíve been going through some of these posts and I have a few questions?

    1. Is enlightened tutor playable in legacy right now?

    2. Has anyone tried lotus field? (Got the idea from aspiringspike RW Nahiri/Blink Deck.)

    3. What about Fable of the Mirror Breaker and Nettlecyst?

    4. As a fun of, how about Reconstruct History? Seems like a draw 5 for 4 in this deck.
    I have been playing with fable. It's good, but unless you commit to more dudes, the last bit is so so. It is a grindy card that does a chunk, buying and bolt and more vs Delver. It is better with sol lands, of course.

    Been thinking long and hard about E tutor. Trouble is the deck in g2 needs E tutor effects, especially if you want to go to g2 and 3 and tutor for cards like deafening silence, torpor orb or whatever, but in a world of removal, it is really bad disadvantage. Back in the day more often than not you tutored for a something that got forced. 3ball, half the rip helm combo, whatever. Maybe the shuffle bought you out ahead, after a forcing, but by and large the stuff you tutored for either got countered or it resolved. Tutoring now for most of the deck results in P ending and thus disadvantage- in a world of Uro and EI. With most decks packing the removal they now have, I think tutor's place is questionable.

    The other huge, huge issue is meltdown is everywhere due to saga,and that leaves the deck hugely vulnerable.
    I degenerated the deck to run bolt and swords, in a pretty standard walker shell. Really the best reason to splash red is 4 or 5 bolt effects in the board, but I feel like I am.playing an inferior painter.

    I don't see a huge future for the deck right now unless it can get better versions of cards like the music box, etc. With white getting more EDH love it us possible we can see something in future but so many cards are bloody combat and creature centric , and in Parfait if I am attacking I have probably won already.

    I have been mucking about with Court of Grace, which I good vs certain decks.

  6. #806
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    Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)

    Quote Originally Posted by CRich3 View Post
    1. Is enlightened tutor playable in legacy right now?

    2. Has anyone tried lotus field? (Got the idea from aspiringspike RW Nahiri/Blink Deck.)

    3. What about Fable of the Mirror Breaker and Nettlecyst?

    4. As a fun of, how about Reconstruct History? Seems like a draw 5 for 4 in this deck.
    1. Good question. I've seen this hotly debated. Enlightened Tutor is bad against fair blue (card disadvantage) but strong at pulling silver bullets against unfair decks and fair non-blue. Otherwise the deck lacks card selection and must run an inefficient SB and redundant copies of maindeck cards to ever see them. Fox's Parfait runs 2 ETutor. I've had success with 2-3 in other decks. 4 is too much card disadvantage. Its power depends on how much you abuse it to free up the SB and do broken things. It seems weak getting 7x Deafening Silence 4x Rest in Peace. The card disadvantage hurts even more with 4 ETutor 4 Scroll Rack 4 Mox. When talking about losing to Prismatic and Force of Vigor and Meltdown, imho it may be worth attacking those other sources of card disadvantage first before cutting ETutor.

    2. Fox's build abuses Lotus Field + Cataclysm. You get perfect mana, opponent loses board. Saga into Expedition Map gets Lotus Field. Burning Wish gets Cataclysm.
    I've tried the tech in both Fox's Parfait build and in UWr Landstill. I find it situational but very high power. It's game-ending when it works. The tutor packages do reduce the variance. Lotus Field is useful for many other reasons too.

    3. Those may work in the Stoneforge build above, but don't fit in the low-creature builds. It's a more aggressive less-controlling direction to take the deck.

    Re Meltdown: Fox's build addresses this problem, cutting down to 6 artifacts main and hiding the rest in the SB (Karn). Of those 6 artifacts, 3 cycle in response to removal (Relic, Map, Bauble). 0x Mox Diamond. 0 Scroll Racks main, replaced by 2 Currency Converter (replaces itself more easily) and 1 SB Rack (Karn). The artifacts can be tutored for (Urza's Saga, ETutor, Karn) but you're never getting flooded with artifacts or blown out by removal. It's a radical departure from traditional Parfait, but also stands a chance at winning games in this meta hostile to artifacts.

  7. #807

    Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)

    Fable is honestly fine in any saga deck, I would not say don't run it in a low creature deck- it doesn't need cards like solitude etc. to support it, it is just that the last 2/2 is not gamebreaking/underwhelming/only so-so without cards to copy, but at it's heart, the card is 2/2s x2 plus a discard and draw 2, for 3 mana, which goes some way to getting back card disadvantage lost to Mox D or E tutor or whatever you run- and especially the discard/draw is really nice selection. It is just solid value in any deck. If you are running multiples of cards or situational cards it smooths the way. The opponent will spend resources nerfing the saga tokens etc and casting g2 meltdowns and countering the combo cards/walkers/key cards or whatever, and quite often it is nibbles from the 2/2 that actually finish it, again rather reminiscent of painter.
    It was the experimental inclusion of fable that lead to me dropping E tutor- I kept noticing that I often cycled the tutor on II as I did not want the disadvantage against most of the format, and with a couple of Orim's main and a reasonable sideboard selection of REB effects alongside Deafening Silence, Damping Sphere, etc.I found there was just about enough to not need the tutor in the unfair matches.

  8. #808
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    Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)

    If you're not taking advantage of the Kiki mode, then isn't Urza's Saga into Currency Converter just better at making free bodies and filtering your hand into better cards?

    Fable is a strong card in general, especially monored. But being in the splash color seems like a big drawback. What does your manabase look like? Do you have to limit utility lands to have enough stable red sources? Do you rely on Land Tax surviving for fixing?

  9. #809
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    Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)

    Cycling E-Tutor assumes that you are finding a thing that cantrips and has some other effect on the game. Astrolabe was the previous best card to cycle E-Tutor with (b/c it turns into Gush with Teferi downtick), but cards like Shark Typhoon, Relic-types, and Currency Converter are pretty close. The E-Tutor cycling strategy works very well with "sac to draw" effects with Cosmic Intervention - this works b/c it is equivalent to picking up Astro with Teferi.

    ^notice how we go from simple cycling into frank CA combo. This is how E-Tutor is played effectively in this format. Despite the fact that cards are being combo'd together, we're not playing individually bad effects (i.e. opponents cannot 2-for-1, rather they have to engage in two 1-for-1s).

    Now contrast this to a much more expensive Kikki's Saga, which plays real heavy into Daze, is much slower at requiring opponents to trade, threatens your mana security (needs more duals and/or not-white sources...in a deck that should be playing Saga), and drives you towards Fetchlands (aka away from Land Tax).

    ^all these problems, and you're going down on impactful early game plays (i.e. problems vs combo), down on the ability to uninteractively cash in turn 2's mana (i.e. problems vs Daze...which is problems vs Murktide...which is problems vs Delver), and going up on getting blown out by FoV. The number of tier 0 to tier 1.5 strategies you can hang with is rapidly disappearing as you're playing into their known interactions.

    This is "good card, wrong deck" syndrome...and it needs to be pointed out that looting twice isn't CA...and you want to do all this to cover for something you shouldn't be doing: going all-in on Land Tax.

    When you all-in on Tax/Rack/Mox, you end up on a deck cannot compete b/c it can't overcome its internal variance *and* then gets blown out by what everyone else is already doing (and going to continue doing). There is no magical fix to this deckbuilding flaw; it cannot be overcome by slapping on more jank like Kikki's Saga

    ---

    We already have everything Kikki's Saga could add. Want some treasures? Currency Converter. Want to draw-discard? We have Timeless Dragon and Currency Converter. Want to make a 2/2? We can do that with Currency Converter, multiplied in speed by Timeless. Want to copy an evoke elemental? We're going to evoke Solitude, let it resolve, then put Cosmic on the stack.

    We have all of the essential functions of Kikki's Saga...in our color...at more aggressive mana costs...with more synergy...with better mana...with less ways for opponents to interact...with more reliability (Urza's Saga 3rd age trigger).

  10. #810

    Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    If you're not taking advantage of the Kiki mode, then isn't Urza's Saga into Currency Converter just better at making free bodies and filtering your hand into better cards?

    Fable is a strong card in general, especially monored. But being in the splash color seems like a big drawback. What does your manabase look like? Do you have to limit utility lands to have enough stable red sources? Do you rely on Land Tax surviving for fixing?
    I run 2 mnt, 2 plateau, 2 fetch, plus 4 mox d. Sometimes LT fixes the mana, rarely scroll rack but really isn't that often. I do run 2 sol lands to get to 4cc. With mox I generally want to cast bolt there and then. I have toyed with the extra red source to 7 plus 4 mox d, and my utility lands are saga and karakas, so perhaps a bit lower. I sometimes run maze.I do often fetch up mox d off saga.


    I run 4 bolt, fable x3, and the 3rd karn slot sometimes as Nahiri, as I am main deck RIP x3.

    I also run white staxy decks from time to time- if you want to run geddon/cataclysm/ timeless dragon they work brilliantly in a traditional stompy stax shell alongside Archon of Emeria, Announced Peacekeeper, 3 ball and Chalice , better than in any Parfait esqe deck with 1cc cards. Chalice and 3ball are weaker than back in the days of them walking away with a game on their own, but still strong enough when placed alongside land kill Geddon/Cataclysm effects and the latest 3cc hatebears which add a whole new dimension in themselves.
    I don't want to run Parfait as anything other than 4 LTax and some scroll rack with RIP main deck in numbers because I play other decks. I am not saying those other strategies are bad in a Parfait ish shell, I am saying I akready have very good well established homes for those strategies as the main focus, homes that I have played for a long while and do well against top decks. For comp REL I have never played Parfait, I dig it out for local events like FNM.




    It is certainly true that lots of meltdown effects exist, I try and play around them. If you are taxing and scroll racking they are survivable by not over committing to artifacts.
    Court of grace has been solid for me, ditto the Kiki. Filtering is often what the deck needs.The CA is the tax and scroll rack.

    I have a really good delver match up, btw. Running 3 RIP main helps, but when your removal suite is 4 bolt 4 swords et al (including a cursed scroll), and you have searchable zuran orb e.g. off karn, plus 5 REB/Pyrobkast effects to bring in, you tend to do well against it.

  11. #811
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    Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)

    So white stax isn't a competitive deck. Your lock pieces are highly unreliable when it comes to surviving and avoiding blowouts (Ending, Boseju, FoV, mass artifact kill)...but the deck is very very reliable at getting massacred by Wasteland and Murktide in particular. High variance, low reward...and not well-equipped to recover from its own Geddon or Cataclysm. Also particularly susceptible to countermagic as it detonates its own hand size with a combination of mulligan and Mox-types.

    You can still meme with Ancient Tomb in Stax and just move a few cards to present a competitive Land Tax deck.

    What you have identified is a very common theme among Land Tax players: the magical christmasland winmore scenario where Land Tax and Scroll Rack are popping off (which is not going to happen in today's legacy), followed by crazy levels of trying to keep down your land count (for a Land Tax you aren't going to untap with)...despite the fact that you can get lower land totals than your opponents by hitting your land drops thanks to Saga and Lotus.

    Now let this sink in: you can do literally anything with that mana and still effortlessly meet the condition of Land Tax. You do not have to auto-lose to FoV your Mox and Land Tax. You don't need to invest more into a Land Tax plan; you can play 1x Land Tax boosted by 1x virtual copy per E-Tutor...and have a deck that has a coherent plan whether or not it does the Land Tax thing...and you don't die to flooding out on 12 slots of Mox/Tax/Rack.

    ---

    As we look at the rest of your deck, you're playing too much red, and the Bolt stuff on top of Plow is particularly suspect...but let's just look at the mana. Now my build plays exactly 2x red cards. My access to red mana is: 1x Plateau, 1x Mountain, 1x Mesa, 4x Timeless, 1x Map/2x Currency, 3x Saga finding these, 2x E-Tutor finding these, Lotus Field, and Land Tax. 17/60 slots. Zero inta-death to Mox blowouts and Mox dead topdecks.

    Of all those 17 slots, only the basic Mountain is there to explicitly provide red and nothing else by itself; and I've only dedicated 3 slots out of 60 (Mountain and 2x B Wish). The odds are overwhelmingly in my favor to not trip myself up with the splash...and that Mountain pumps its resources directly into Timeless, Map, Lotus, and Currency...which all fix access to white...and when it's the red mana for Wish, the red is finding payoffs for the white mana.

    ^this mana engine that seamlessly and uninteractively rips lands out of the deck to relentlessly increase odds of topdeck action is the point of Parfait. It has always been the point of Parfait. The only difference is that now we don't have to play horrible high variance tools (quad-Tax/Scroll/Mox) to most efficiently achieve the goal.

    The time of Mox is gone. Scroll Rack is a benchwarmer, grabbed by Karn. Land Tax is played optimally at 1x slot, expanded by E-Tutor; it is not the centerpiece, it's just a cog in the machine.

  12. #812

    Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    So white stax isn't a competitive deck. Your lock pieces are highly unreliable when it comes to surviving and avoiding blowouts (Ending, Boseju, FoV, mass artifact kill)...but the deck is very very reliable at getting massacred by Wasteland and Murktide in particular. High variance, low reward...and not well-equipped to recover from its own Geddon or Cataclysm. Also particularly susceptible to countermagic as it detonates its own hand size with a combination of mulligan and Mox-types.

    You can still meme with Ancient Tomb in Stax and just move a few cards to present a competitive Land Tax deck.

    What you have identified is a very common theme among Land Tax players: the magical christmasland winmore scenario where Land Tax and Scroll Rack are popping off (which is not going to happen in today's legacy), followed by crazy levels of trying to keep down your land count (for a Land Tax you aren't going to untap with)...despite the fact that you can get lower land totals than your opponents by hitting your land drops thanks to Saga and Lotus.

    Now let this sink in: you can do literally anything with that mana and still effortlessly meet the condition of Land Tax. You do not have to auto-lose to FoV your Mox and Land Tax. You don't need to invest more into a Land Tax plan; you can play 1x Land Tax boosted by 1x virtual copy per E-Tutor...and have a deck that has a coherent plan whether or not it does the Land Tax thing...and you don't die to flooding out on 12 slots of Mox/Tax/Rack.

    ---

    As we look at the rest of your deck, you're playing too much red, and the Bolt stuff on top of Plow is particularly suspect...but let's just look at the mana. Now my build plays exactly 2x red cards. My access to red mana is: 1x Plateau, 1x Mountain, 1x Mesa, 4x Timeless, 1x Map/2x Currency, 3x Saga finding these, 2x E-Tutor finding these, Lotus Field, and Land Tax. 17/60 slots. Zero inta-death to Mox blowouts and Mox dead topdecks.

    Of all those 17 slots, only the basic Mountain is there to explicitly provide red and nothing else by itself; and I've only dedicated 3 slots out of 60 (Mountain and 2x B Wish). The odds are overwhelmingly in my favor to not trip myself up with the splash...and that Mountain pumps its resources directly into Timeless, Map, Lotus, and Currency...which all fix access to white...and when it's the red mana for Wish, the red is finding payoffs for the white mana.

    ^this mana engine that seamlessly and uninteractively rips lands out of the deck to relentlessly increase odds of topdeck action is the point of Parfait. It has always been the point of Parfait. The only difference is that now we don't have to play horrible high variance tools (quad-Tax/Scroll/Mox) to most efficiently achieve the goal.

    The time of Mox is gone. Scroll Rack is a benchwarmer, grabbed by Karn. Land Tax is played optimally at 1x slot, expanded by E-Tutor; it is not the centerpiece, it's just a cog in the machine.
    When I run white stax/angel stompy [though it doesn't run angels] call it what you will, it does well, and it is not up for discussion. The stuff I have highlighted, is, and there is no polite way to put this- utter bollocks. I run the deck events where I know the field reasonably well and it runs with a positive match win percentage- it is much, much more reliable than it once was thanks to Timeless' plaincycling- obviously no deck is as reliable as a brainstorm/cantrip deck, that goes without saying, but it reliably presents 3 mana t2, and if it has 3 mana t1 nearly always has something to drop with it. You don't get blown out by Force decks; the whole deck presents things force deck do not want resolving t1- 3ball, archon, annointed, chalice, sylex, and geddon is lethal nearly at any point. The timeless tokens and saga circumcent force, and those decks are easier matches, not the hardest, it certainly does not get massacred by wasteland and murktide, end of- it actually crucible locks opponents with wastelands. I don't run it at larger COMP REL, in larger events as the deck gets worse if you do not know the field and I don't enjoy it over 7-8-9 rounds. Telling me my white stompy deck is vulnerable to wasteland and force without seeing the list makes me wonder about what you are saying about your own deck. It is a perfectly "competetive" fringe srategy, more so than anyone's Parfait. T1 3 ball or sylex gets more free wins than anything we do here.

    As I said, I want to play parfait, you are correct that there are inherent problems with classic parfait, but I get the impression you want everyone to play your pet deck, and anyone who want to play other decks is going to be told their deck is wrong without even seeing the list, even extending to other archetypes, apparently. You can point out that classic parfait has a lot of mox/LT slots, but cyou an't say "playing too much red"- lightning bolt is actually a really good card, btw, and so is red elemental blast/pyroblast-it's the best board card in the format- all this when you haven't seen the list!!!!!!!!!! You could say I need more red sources than I listed- fair enough- but my deck operates as a RW midrange deck as much as anything- with a RIP helm combo to finish. You seem to think that everyone is running 17 land, when in fact I am running 24 including saga.
    You can't "look at the rest of your deck" as you say, because I haven't listed a red splash parfait here in donkey's years, probably 3 plus years ago. This is not constructive- if you were serious you would never attempt a deconstruction of a deck without looking at a list, and didn't bother to ask for it. I own over enough legacy decks to have to visit them under lock and key- I don't want to play your deck, and the last I looked you had humility, a card whose time has sadly passed- in the same list as timeless dragon. I do accept that saga and lotus field reduce counts naturally- I run 4 saga and city of traitors, fwiw.
    I think you will kill the thread if you criticise every deck without seeing it. More so if you contributions are about things outside of Parfait.
    FWIW- I think you are using enlightend tutor- which is probably wrong, and not running RIP/helm, which is kind odd as it is a much better wincon than blowing up lands. The correct number of saga is 4, as well, for me at least- but then I am playing mox diamonds. I don't think it is worth continuing this, but suggest that it is contrubitions like yours that are pushing people towards discords- where people are far more co-operative.

  13. #813
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    Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)

    There are a lot of blatantly competitive concepts you have not recognized. You're just going to have to trust that Crucible should always lose its slot to Karn...that you *will* play Saga with Land Tax b/c it lets you meet the Land Tax condition by playing lands, and that you will cut the Scroll Racks b/c Saga finds a better card called Currency Converter...that you're only allowed to play E-Tutor if you can roll it into a target that effectively cycles it, and then combos into frank CA...and many others discussed in this thread.
    ---
    Looking beyond recognizing frankly competitive rules of widely-applicable deckbuilding, it really doesn't matter if we're not going to address the rotten core of this specific deck: flooding out on Tax/Scroll/Mox. It is the 800 pound gorilla. It's like trying to stop the titanic from sinking while it's sitting on the bottom of the ocean. No combination of cards that exist today could be in a list that overcome this flaw and lead to an optimal, most-winning version of Parfait featuring Mox/Tax/Scroll.

    You're not allowed to claim you've created a competitive deck whose god hands [Mox into Land Tax] just lose the whole effing game to FoV...nevermind the futility of opening like that into Ending target Tax.
    ---
    As you play the deck, it should become rapidly apparent that all that anyone needs to hear is that the list has ~12 slots of Tax/Mox/Scroll to know exactly how poorly that version will go. We honestly don't even need to hear about the other 48 - it truly doesn't matter.
    ---
    As far as my rebuild of the archetype goes, you kinda have to follow most of that script. There are certainly some different decision forks where tuning can happen...but it needs to be understood that all progress with Parfait is going to be tied intimately to getting lands out of the deck, into the hand, and replacing them with cards off the top of a now land-depleted deck. The only winning way to do this is decentralizing away from outdated, doomed-to-fail jank engines [i.e. Tax/Scroll/Mox].

    Really try to understand the level of dedication to ripping Plains out of the deck you need to attain to compete with Parfait. Like when you see Cataclysm, understand that it's still an engine card killing a Flagstones and ripping out that Plains...and I know the opponents need to turn that ever-lurking 1x Land Tax back on for me after a Cataclysm b/c they are not designed to win off 1 land...leading to even more ripping of Plains out of deck. Timeless also ripping those Plains. Saga and the option of tutoring Zuran sac Flagstones or Map search Wasteland or Fetch for Cosmic - again rip out those Plains. Burning Wish for a From the Ashes -> rip out those Plains. Trade them into topdecks off Saga/Currency, Karn wish Scroll. Need more Plains to rip out? Put them back in with Bauble...then keep doing it by rebuying that Bauble.

    ^I don't care what my opponent is on, I'm gonna keep smashing the Plains button...and the Cosmic button...and the Saga button...and the Cataclysm button...and the Karn button. The order hardly matters. That's the big difference between building optimally versus stranding yourself of a highly sequence-dependent [read easy to stop] Tax/Scroll all-in. Notice how it does not matter what the opponent chooses to trade against, and contrast that to the Tax/Scroll/Mox experience.

    Do you need to play my specific list? Well no...but for everything you change you better maintain the same fanatical devotion to ripping out & trading Plains and resetting the board. Following a competitive deckbuilding decision tree for Parfait almost certainly leads to the cluster of Cosmic/Solitude/Flagstones/Lotus/B Wish/Cataclysm...but like sure, some other cluster of cards could come together to do something on par - but it definitely does not include mass-Tax/Scroll/Mox, that's for sure.
    ---
    As far as the playability of the deck goes, it costs $1100...and uh, it's gonna smash pretty much anything people can do in legacy outside of Thassa (while we wait for wotc to print Torpor Orb on a land) or abuse banned cards Timetwister with Mind Twist (known as Echo and Day's). I mean it is beyond effortless to massacre any non-Thassa with Daze [including Delver], anything with Depths, Field of the Dead, anything with Chalice, any non-Thassa GY combo, DnT, Maverick, Goblins, SnT, Reanimator, discard, Post, anything non-Thassa with too many duals, Saga, Burn, Uro, and the list goes on. I also doubt this would feel winnable for opponents on Elves or Painter.

    If you're not exploiting Thassa or banned cards, you better be on a lightning fast spell-based combo deck, produce a turn 0-2 Karn, or put down a turn 0 Minsc (and then start getting lucky), if you want to feel confident in a matchup vs properly constructed Parfait. Outside of that, an opponent needs to be on one of a very small list of tier 2 decks...and even then, most of the list of things they could choose from that list have no game vs tier 0 to tier 1.5.

    Understand the floor of Parfait: properly constructed and played well, the deck will win most of the time vs that laundry list. It won't just win though, it will demoralize. This decentralized Plains-to-hand-to-cards engine is highly uninteractive, and the stuff it's going to cast isn't sequence-based. That means the best an opponent can hope to do is trade on-rate...and the moment they can't make a trade, it's over.

    We aren't on a competitive forum to hand out free lunches to opponents with their FoV and Ending and all that stuff inevitably breaking up Tax/Scroll/Mox. To put this into perspective: Tax/Scroll/Mox truthing is like advocating for Werebear and Frenetic Efreet when DRC and Murktide exist.

  14. #814
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    4,143

    Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)

    Quote Originally Posted by drmarkb View Post
    I run 2 mnt, 2 plateau, 2 fetch, plus 4 mox d. Sometimes LT fixes the mana, rarely scroll rack but really isn't that often. I do run 2 sol lands to get to 4cc. With mox I generally want to cast bolt there and then. I have toyed with the extra red source to 7 plus 4 mox d, and my utility lands are saga and karakas, so perhaps a bit lower. I sometimes run maze.I do often fetch up mox d off saga.

    I run 4 bolt, fable x3, and the 3rd karn slot sometimes as Nahiri, as I am main deck RIP x3.
    Interesting. Ok this explains a lot. So you're heavier into red than most Parfait decks. You also have ample early interaction (StP, Bolt, Pyroblast... and maindeck Chants?). Then spending 2R on a slow filter is not as big a deal vs tempo decks, compared to the other builds with less early interaction.

    It sounds like you're also largely a 1-for-1 deck (4 Bolt, 4 StP, 5 Pyroblast). 1-for-1 decks really struggle to absorb ETutor's card disadvantage. The problem is compounded when you're quadlaser on Parfait pieces that are card disadvantage when Voltron is not assembled (4 Mox, 4 LT... 4 Scroll too?). So I can see why ETutor becomes awkward in your build and why you'd prefer slots that can trade better than 1-for-1.

    Do you find your access to red suffers if your turn 1 Mox/LT eats Prismatic Ending? For a 4 Bolt 5 Pyroblast deck you have limited access to turn 1 red through lands (6 sources). Just wondering how that plays out. Does it affect your mana stability or boarding strategy? Do you sandbag Mox if you may need red later?

    Have you ever tried ETutor just in the SB as a way to condense space vs combo? I found that trick effective in Landstill. You get all the benefits of an ETutor SB for G2 and G3, without having the G1 card disadvantage vs all the fair blue stuff that punishes it.

    For example
    2 Enlightened Tutor
    1 Deafening Silence
    1 Rest in Peace

    Vs combo you effectively have 3x Deafening Silence 3x Rest in Peace, except you used 4 SB slots instead of 6. +2 SB slots gained. That creates room for more silver bullets: Torpor Orb, Ethersworn Canonist, Relic of Progenitus, Pithing Needle, Crucible of Worlds, Ensnaring Bridge, etc. (Canonist + Relic bring it to 4x grave hate 4x storm hate while diversifying answers, e.g. you get 3x Canonist vs Elves). If the toolbox is artifacts, they are also tutorable by Karn in G1 and possibly Saga postboard, so you are able to see a 1-of fairly often without it consuming much SB space. Yet you still see ETutor 0 times vs stuff like Delver and Uro Midrange.

  15. #815

    Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    There are a lot of blatantly competitive concepts you have not recognized. You're just going to have to trust that Crucible should always lose its slot to Karn...that you *will* play Saga with Land Tax b/c it lets you meet the Land Tax condition by playing lands, and that you will cut the Scroll Racks b/c Saga finds a better card called Currency Converter...that you're only allowed to play E-Tutor if you can roll it into a target that effectively cycles it, and then combos into frank CA...and many others discussed in this thread.
    ---
    Looking beyond recognizing frankly competitive rules of widely-applicable deckbuilding, it really doesn't matter if we're not going to address the rotten core of this specific deck: flooding out on Tax/Scroll/Mox. It is the 800 pound gorilla. It's like trying to stop the titanic from sinking while it's sitting on the bottom of the ocean. No combination of cards that exist today could be in a list that overcome this flaw and lead to an optimal, most-winning version of Parfait featuring Mox/Tax/Scroll.

    You're not allowed to claim you've created a competitive deck whose god hands [Mox into Land Tax] just lose the whole effing game to FoV...nevermind the futility of opening like that into Ending target Tax.
    ---
    As you play the deck, it should become rapidly apparent that all that anyone needs to hear is that the list has ~12 slots of Tax/Mox/Scroll to know exactly how poorly that version will go. We honestly don't even need to hear about the other 48 - it truly doesn't matter.
    ---
    As far as my rebuild of the archetype goes, you kinda have to follow most of that script. There are certainly some different decision forks where tuning can happen...but it needs to be understood that all progress with Parfait is going to be tied intimately to getting lands out of the deck, into the hand, and replacing them with cards off the top of a now land-depleted deck. The only winning way to do this is decentralizing away from outdated, doomed-to-fail jank engines [i.e. Tax/Scroll/Mox].
    .
    Not quite sure who your comment is aimed at. I have never ever played crucible in Parfait.
    I run 3 or sometimes 4 RIP and helm, always have. Crucible plus RIP is an obvious nonbo.
    I have always played Karn. So not sure who should be trusting that crucible loses its slot to Karn, but it sure isn't me who is running crucible.
    On LTax and Mox, I am not bothered with ending hitting LT, I am a midrange RW deck with helm combo kill. Sometimes I hit Land Tax and scroll certainly not the aim of my deck.RIP helm is the aim of my deck.
    Last edited by drmarkb; 11-08-2022 at 01:36 PM.

  16. #816

    Re: [Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Interesting. Ok this explains a lot. So you're heavier into red than most Parfait decks. You also have ample early interaction (StP, Bolt, Pyroblast... and maindeck Chants?). Then spending 2R on a slow filter is not as big a deal vs tempo decks, compared to the other builds with less early interaction.

    It sounds like you're also largely a 1-for-1 deck (4 Bolt, 4 StP, 5 Pyroblast). 1-for-1 decks really struggle to absorb ETutor's card disadvantage. The problem is compounded when you're quadlaser on Parfait pieces that are card disadvantage when Voltron is not assembled (4 Mox, 4 LT... 4 Scroll too?). So I can see why ETutor becomes awkward in your build and why you'd prefer slots that can trade better than 1-for-1.

    Do you find your access to red suffers if your turn 1 Mox/LT eats Prismatic Ending? For a 4 Bolt 5 Pyroblast deck you have limited access to turn 1 red through lands (6 sources). Just wondering how that plays out. Does it affect your mana stability or boarding strategy? Do you sandbag Mox if you may need red later?

    Have you ever tried ETutor just in the SB as a way to condense space vs combo? I found that trick effective in Landstill. You get all the benefits of an ETutor SB for G2 and G3, without having the G1 card disadvantage vs all the fair blue stuff that punishes it.

    For example
    2 Enlightened Tutor
    1 Deafening Silence
    1 Rest in Peace

    Vs combo you effectively have 3x Deafening Silence 3x Rest in Peace, except you used 4 SB slots instead of 6. +2 SB slots gained. That creates room for more silver bullets: Torpor Orb, Ethersworn Canonist, Relic of Progenitus, Pithing Needle, Crucible of Worlds, Ensnaring Bridge, etc. (Canonist + Relic bring it to 4x grave hate 4x storm hate while diversifying answers, e.g. you get 3x Canonist vs Elves). If the toolbox is artifacts, they are also tutorable by Karn in G1 and possibly Saga postboard, so you are able to see a 1-of fairly often without it consuming much SB space. Yet you still see ETutor 0 times vs stuff like Delver and Uro Midrange.
    Yes, I am a one for one deck, the only sources of advantage are walkers and permanent repeated removal off Cursed Scroll against one or two decks, plus every now and then I get scroll/LT mid game. I have mucked about with a wrath effect main too, btw.
    I have considered ET in the board.
    My board is currently
    5 REB/Pyroblast
    Torpor Orb
    Canonist
    Damping sphere
    Needle
    Meekstone
    helm
    lattice
    deafening silence
    zuran orb
    Peacekeeper

    Obviously it is a karn board

    Vs spellbased combo storm e.g. TES, ANT + 1 canonist,+1 deafening silence + 1 damping sphere (and the blast effects depending on) depending and I run 2 orim's main. I do not need relic as I am main deck RIP, and crucible is a nonbo for me, but yeah, it is correct to say I can run 1 x ET board.

    I do sandbag the mox D sometimes- if I need red and hold the pyroblast I will often bait the first prismatic with the LT, holding back mox, often vs e.g. uro piles it is better for me to resolve RIP. I do sometimes reverse that. I really need to get more red in there. I often search for mox off saga too.

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