I don't really have anything constructive to add i just have to say it's insane seeing K-Run post about his deck more than a decade later. Good on you man, i remember following your progress with it all those years ago.
It’s good to see you on here too Oyen :D I hope I see you at a legacy event nearby!
Also, for those who want some fun pimp for the deck, in German, kicker is Bonus
@K-Run
@TaxMan
I've playe a Weekend Torunament and I'd like to share my thinkgns.
I ran the wollowing list:
/ Lands
2 [IA] Mountain (1)
16 [7E] Plains (4)
1 [US] Serra's Sanctum
1 [EX] City of Traitors
// Spells
1 [LG] Moat
4 [JU] Burning Wish
1 [AL] Soldevi Digger
1 [SOK] Pithing Needle
1 [TE] Humility
4 [4E] Land Tax
1 Terminus ( I wanted to run 1 [9E] Blood Moon, but there wasn't any in the store!!)
3 [TE] Scroll Rack
4 [MI] Enlightened Tutor
1 [IA] Zuran Orb
2 [WL] Argivian Find
4 [WL] Abeyance
1 [9E] Story Circle
1 [10E] Aura of Silence
4 [V10] Mox Diamond
3 [JGC] Orim's Chant
1 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
1 [ISD] Nevermore
1 [CMD] Oblivion Ring
1 [FNM] Isochron Scepter
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [AVR] Terminus
SB: 1 [NE] Seal of Cleansing
SB: 1 [CFX] Banefire
SB: 1 [9E] Wrath of God
SB: 1 [TSB] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 1 [UD] Replenish
SB: 1 [US] Planar Birth
SB: 1 [GP] Shattering Spree
SB: 1 [MOR] Idyllic Tutor
SB: 3 [IA] Pyroblast
SB: 1 [SC] Decree of Justice
SB: 1 [DS] Ritual of Restoration
SB: 1 [PLC] Porphyry Nodes
Well,
- 1st Game: Was 43 Lands with intuitions, Oblivion stone, manabond, E.E...
I won 1games even with no B.Moon.
In here Nedle and Nevermore were key cards. I locked the engine of loam naming loam even I had Ruins active.
The second game we didnt finish
- 2nd Game: Tendrils with Show and Tell and Griselbrand, It was no TES and no ANT.
First game was:
Hand of: Mox diamond E.Turot, Story circle B.Wish Land LAnd LAnd Tax
the game was resolved in to: I had Scroll Rack In play 2 mana open, he duress my Circle, !!, the he resolves Show and T, me in resp E.Turot to Humility change Rack Win! he put Griselbrand, next I resoved Moaat and again Nevermore To tenderils and conceded
2nd game was land Lands Tax and 2 Pyroblast + Orims. I simply didnt reache the Mountains nenough early, what was a think I have to think related to the use of enough red sources.
3rd game was resolved into a Silence in reponse to a 2nd D.Ritual, because he wanted to play griselbrand, he FoWs my Abeyance , I beyance him again, he become sad and pass turn, and he noticed (I knew) abeyance lets creatures so, as it was store torunament I concede.
Lost but could have won , this deck is suposed to go perfect vs TES and ANT but not as welll vs Showand Tell Tendrils Griselbrand becauase of mainly LED card.
3rd Game Miracles:
Well I knew it was a difficlut match up. and it wasnt, it was so easy to my oponnent... I conceded both games.
we havent responses to c.balance online, we do not put pressure and he will counter the stuff thath is annoying but what happnes is that we do not have any,
So because in my meta its infected by miracles i need some solution.
Well on first game he resolves soon a Jace as I dont put pressure and I Oblivion it, but next on 5th turn he plays balance with 7 cardsin hand and its game,
On second game was the same. shit.
So I need to make this deck good vs miracles.
II'll let you know my changes.
4th game Maverick
In here I locked with isochorn + chant, easy.
In 2nd I made a mistake not leaving terminus in side, its fantastic this card, I would have made - burning into terminus, change with s.rack sacrifice land to not to die, abeyance and terminus, next land tax ability. !!
3rd game I would have won I locked him with moat nevermore to krosan, humility,
Conslucsions:
- The decks is slow as hell, I ddidnt win a game my opponents conceded me. so I understand that I need something to win quick in a way.
- I have no options vs miracle, need to change things in the deck
- Soldevi digger was useless all time, people often lookjed at that card as nobody knew what it does...,
- Argivian were also useless, I don't think theyre neede even with B.Wish to -> Restoration Or Replenish. The idea is that I'd like to have artifacts or encantments that make any ability destroying b¡y itselfs so that makes argivian better, but I haven't so it 's only usefull if they counter anything, therefore I'm think9ng seriosly to put in these slots Pyroblast main.
- Terminus is a great card. I want to make space main.
- B.Wish targets were mainly to -> Idillyc tutor, Terminus, Restoration Ritual.
- I found Decree useless also, as most of the time s you lock with humility and Moat vs creatures, so I'm thinking seriously in Charbelcher main, if the idea around this is: you can win only with tax only + charbelcher.
- Important Note: I notice I had no respiknse vs Teeg. so I'll put something in side for B.Wish, any Idea? I need also anything that works vs mother + gaddock. Pyroclasm for example doesn t work. Please help in here!
Questions:
- Have you played Charbelcher Main? how is that good? I'm seriosly thinkin in including main, I will need to win some day a game with this deck!
- I ve been thikning in painters - grisdtone, and even that way will make my pyroblasts better, but I find again that painter is a creature and is not ok with humility.
- Does the Opalescence option can be ok? does it work with moat humility?
- Do you know guys any other idea regarding Win Con, ajani elspeth? Too slow.
- Well my main problem is Miracles countertop, so options are:
1. Prytoblasts main.
2. more Aura of silnce maybe?
3. The artifact that costs 2 and you put counters and can destroy even jace OR E.Explosives?
4. Do you have any other idea?
- Can anybody tell me the utlity of Soldevi digger? does this card worth? K-Run could you give me an anwer in here.
So definately changes in my mind are:
- 1 Abeyance
- 2 A.Find
- 1 S.Digger
- 2 Plains
=
+ 3 Pyroblasts
+ 1 Charbelcher
+ 2 Mountains.
Also I will take from side Decree and put more Terminus and more Pyroblasts/Hydroblasts.
Please let me know your opoinions!
Belcher is amazing. It’s the only card I have that kills my opponent, and I play 1. Never had an issue with 2x Argivian Find maindeck either. Soldevi digger is awful. It was a kill card to stop you from decking back in the day. It’s horribly outdated, you can just cut that straight up for belcher.
Blood moon is necessary if you’re playing Red. I’m not sure why there is so much disinterest in the scepter/chant combo, but I’m totally unimpressed by abeyance and have cut it completely. I’d rather just have Leylines to stop their plans. I have no problem scroll racking away extras.
I'm pretty sure that this deck fundamentally doesn't work.
I'm also pretty sure, however, that there's exactly one card that makes Land Tax almost worth playing and that ought to be a pre-requisite for the archetype and that I haven't seen at all thusfar;
Extraplanar Lens
The card has massive synergies with Land Tax in that it allows you to activate the card while not missing out on your mana development.
For my money;
18 Snow-Covered Plains
3 Scrying Sheets
4 Scroll Rack
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Land Tax
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Argivian Find
3 Extraplanar Lens
4 Path to Exile
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
2 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Venser's Journal
2 Sacred mesa
1 Batterskull
2 Goblin Charbelcher
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
I think Goblin Charbelcher is your answer.
I think the main offender here is CounterTop. Maybe pack more Oblivion Rings, Abolish, Aura of Silence (since they're at three CMC and its harder for them to hit three) or Pithing Needle (naming Sensei's Divining Top or Jace, the Mind Sculptor.)- I have no options vs miracle, need to change things in the deck
There are better choices; Mistveil Plains and Elixir of Immortality- Soldevi digger was useless all time, people often lookjed at that card as nobody knew what it does...,
Like what was suggested above, I'd go for Noxious Revival. It can also replay (and help trigger) miracle cards (Terminus)- Argivian were also useless, I don't think theyre neede even with B.Wish to -> Restoration Or Replenish. The idea is that I'd like to have artifacts or encantments that make any ability destroying b¡y itselfs so that makes argivian better, but I haven't so it 's only usefull if they counter anything, therefore I'm think9ng seriosly to put in these slots Pyroblast main.
It is, especially with Scroll Rack and Noxious Revival- Terminus is a great card. I want to make space main.
I haven't really tested B.Wish so no comment on this- B.Wish targets were mainly to -> Idillyc tutor, Terminus, Restoration Ritual.
[quote]- I found Decree useless also, as most of the time s you lock with humility and Moat vs creatures, so I'm thinking seriously in Charbelcher main, if the idea around this is: you can win only with tax only + charbelcher.[/cards]
See my first reply. Also, I don't think Decree will be help because its too mana intensive (that why Entreat the Angel isn't really suggested in the deck[/cards]) and this deck wants to run efficient-costed spells
I would suggest the following: Swords to Plowshares or Path to Exile. I can't think of a Sorcery-based one for B.Wish- Important Note: I notice I had no respiknse vs Teeg. so I'll put something in side for B.Wish, any Idea? I need also anything that works vs mother + gaddock. Pyroclasm for example doesn t work. Please help in here!
See above. Charbelcher is your win-button in the late game.Questions:
- Have you played Charbelcher Main? how is that good? I'm seriosly thinkin in including main, I will need to win some day a game with this deck!
I wouldn't suggest Painter's Servant+Grindstone because Emrakul, the Aeons Torn is a thing in Legacy and its a two-card mana intesnsive combo.- I ve been thikning in painters - grisdtone, and even that way will make my pyroblasts better, but I find again that painter is a creature and is not ok with humility.
As for Painter with Humility, because of how layering works, Painter will be a 1/1 with no ability but everything will be the color of your choice (Its ability is "As it enters the battlefield" and not "Whenever", so the trigger doesn't use the stack)
For more information, look up these threads:
How Humility Works
Humility and Painter’s Servant
Opalescence Ruling- Does the Opalescence option can be ok? does it work with moat humility?
Though I don't think it will be advisable with Moat.
They are too slow, but I will suggest Elspeth, Knight-Errant since it has synergy with Humility and can hold back aggro no problem. Ajani Vengeant is alright but you did mention that sometimes you get color screwed.- Do you know guys any other idea regarding Win Con, ajani elspeth? Too slow.
That artifact is Ratchet Bomb. For other answers, see above.- Well my main problem is Miracles countertop, so options are:
1. Prytoblasts main.
2. more Aura of silnce maybe?
3. The artifact that costs 2 and you put counters and can destroy even jace OR E.Explosives?
4. Do you have any other idea?
Soldevi Digger is an old tech as it can recycle cards that can be Scrolled back into. You have better options now (such as Noxious Revival)- Can anybody tell me the utlity of Soldevi digger? does this card worth? K-Run could you give me an anwer in here.
Oh damn, the more I learn. LOL
Scepter/Chant Combo is too mana intensive though once you get it online, it can win certain matchups.Blood moon is necessary if you’re playing Red. I’m not sure why there is so much disinterest in the scepter/chant combo, but I’m totally unimpressed by abeyance and have cut it completely. I’d rather just have Leylines to stop their plans. I have no problem scroll racking away extras.
We will make it work ;)
I know you've tested it before (when I kept crusading about its legalization, you kept saying you've tested it and its crap) but if built around it properly, it will work.
As big of an internet dick that you are, you are god damn awesome. Thanks for suggesting that!I'm also pretty sure, however, that there's exactly one card that makes Land Tax almost worth playing and that ought to be a pre-requisite for the archetype and that I haven't seen at all thusfar;
Extraplanar Lens
The card has massive synergies with Land Tax in that it allows you to activate the card while not missing out on your mana development.
As for your list,
Why Venser's Journal? I get the no hand limit but just to gain life, wouldn't Ivory Tower better.
Also why Tormod's Crypt? Why not Grafdigger's Cage?
I agree with E-tutor's number since Scroll Rack will do most of the searching.
Extraplanar was tested and sadly had to be dropped long ago due to lack of impact. The card is AWESOME, but it’s simply win more and this deck needs more proactive cards to helping you live. I do still have a sweet spot for it and I play it in Modern with snow covered plains, but I miss it in the deck that being said I can see people playing it.
Currently the couple flex slots where I would be playing 2x Extraplanar became Oblivion Ring, then Powder Keg, and now are Grafdigger’s Cage and Cursed Totem
Last edited by yespuhyren; 08-26-2012 at 05:34 PM.
@Pelikanudo
About Burning Wish:
Many years ago, I wanted to play 4 Burning Wish in Vintage Parfait as a better way to get access to Balance. Burning Wish was restricted the following month, so I never really try it. The idea of Burning Wish is Legacy is interesting, but we have to ask ourselves if any sorcery is worth it. Let’s take a look at your sideboard sorceries:
1x Terminus
1x Banefire
1x Wrath of God
1x Replenish
1x Planar Birth
1x Shattering Spree
1x Idyllic Tutor
1x Decree of Justice
1x Ritual of Restoration
Terminus: The thing with Terminus is that you’d rather have it in your library than in your hand. Wrath of God seems better for that role. Other possible options include Pyroclasm and Firespout.
Banefire: This sounds like a good idea. Red Sun’s Zenith is interesting as well.
Replenish: This is useful vs counterspells and removal. A good wish target.
Planar Birth: I don’t understand why some people still want to play this. Unless you face lots of burn decks AND run Zuran Orb, I don’t think this is useful at all.
Shattering Spree: An amazing card vs artifacts but too dependent on red mana. Revoke Existence or Dust to Dust seem better cards for that role.
Idyllic Tutor: Sounds like a late-game option, as it would cost you 5 manas plus the cost of the wanted enchantment… Is it worth the slot? You already have 4 E. Tutors and the tax/rack engine for that…
Decree of Justice: Nice card, but will you have enough mana to make it relevant?
Ritual of Restoration: Noxious Revival is a better card that you should play maindeck instead. Mine Excavation is better if you really want a Wish target.
Are there any other options?
Austere Command
Cataclysm
Cenn’s Enlistment
Increasing Devotion
Martial Coup
Morningtide
Saltblast
Timely Reinforcements
Earthquake
Meltdown
Ruination
Winds of Change
The problem with your strategy is that you give up maindeck defense in the form of Swords to Plowshares and Terminus to get access to situational business spells (ex. : Replenish). A better way to do it in my humble opinion would be to have proper defense maindeck and to use Burning Wish to get access to specialized resources. Depending on Burning Wish to save your ass in the early game is bound to fail, if only for the lack of red mana available. I would play 2-3 Wishes at most and add Plateaus to ensure a better access to red mana.
About Counterbalance:
There are two problems with this matchup. First, we do not have proper maindeck solutions to Counterbalance, a card that deals with most of our cards. Then, there is the fact that Miracles is a slow deck as well, making it impossible to win the 2nd and 3rd game within 50 min. The best sideboard card vs Counterbalance is Banishing Stroke. The best advice I can give you is to concede the first game as soon as your opponent has an active CounterTop.
About a faster kill:
Goblin Charbelcher is the fastest reliable kill. I personally use Batterskull and Elspeth, Knight-Errant and it is fast enough to my liking. In your build, I would play Charbelcher.
About some cards you use:
Soldevi Digger and Argivian Find are outdated. Use Wheel of Sun and Moon and Noxious Revival for an instant upgrade!
About Gaddock Teeg and Mother of Runes:
Swords is a great answer to both cards. If you use Pyroclasm, you can get rid of one of the two creatures. My version doesn’t have much problem vs Maverick: I simply tutor for Cursed Totem in the first turns and deal with the creatures with Swords and Terminus until I play Humility. Karakas also deals with Teeg.
I hope this helps. Good luck!
K-Run, is there any reason you don’t have a pyroclasm as a burning wish target? I always found it incredibly useful. Are you running earthquake?
Last edited by yespuhyren; 08-26-2012 at 03:59 PM.
@K-Run:
Ivory Tower would be better life gain obviously, but the lifegain and don't-discard effects are so marginal that it's definitely not worthwhile to use two slots for them, even if one is Reliquary Tower, I feel. Whether or not it's worthwhile to have a slot to this at all is questionable but, while expensive, Venser's Journal does do a lot of legwork in the late game, pulling you way out of reach and letting you get your full activation out of Land Tax while not just discarding a bunch of lands eot.
I tested out other graveyard removal, but honestly nothing else is as poweful/efficient as Tormod's Crypt, and you have so many conditional slots anyway, and Scroll Rack to throw it back. I would also say that there's a number of marginal graveyard utilization effects in Legacy that Cage doesn't answer; pumping KotR, or recurring Engineered Explosives with Academy Ruins for instance, or Welder tricks.
Although when it is good the fact that I only have 1 Argivian to recur it is a bit annoying.
One card I've often wanted to play but is probably terrible is Reito Lantern. It's a Digger that doubles as graveyard "removal" for the opponent, although it would be less useful due to its slowness against Reanimator and Dredge. It would however let you manage recursion tricks in slow matchups like against 43Lands, decks with Ruins, etc.. It seems way better than either Digger or Elixir though, although perhaps not Mistveil.
@yespuhyren:
I would ask what you tested against. A lot of decks I've found Lens absolutely necessary, as the plays that are seemingly "win-more" that it enables are often necessary to survive against decks with strong late games, such as BladeControl, Goblins, Miracles, NicFit, and many builds of Maverick or Bant. It does suck enormous donkey balls when they actually have removal for it, but the decks that pack Ancient Grudge in their board tend to be the ones against which Land Tax is basically dead anyway. i.e., RugDelver.
This deck is, of course, very mana hungry for a strategy that relies on your opponent playing more lands than you. This is the fundamental challenge this deck faces; how can you activate Land Tax and develop your mana at the same time? Lens is the only card that neatly slices that Gordian knot, although Path to Exile as a 4x helps.
Also always choosing to draw first, which I've found necessary and I'm not sure if everyone else implicitly assumed, because I don't recall it being mentioned, but yeah, totes draw first.
(Lens also lets you double up on Sacred Mesa, a card that can simply run away with the game entirely by itself with sufficient mana.)
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
TheInamous!
Thanks For Reito Lantern. !
It s the best of all.
- better than digger - you choose and can be both gy.
- better than mistveil - both gy.
Do you know any other card.
How do you guys play charbelcher, as I think makes the deck basic land depandant.
Because of that card I think I will go back to old strategy. No win cons main!!! just winning first game its all i want! Thats why I play B.Wish, you really do not mind 3rd games...
K-Run what is really the strategy of the deck, I mean, is enoguh to not loose? simply make the opponent loose? can be this deck played as a Deck That Does Not Loose?
I think I'm going to substitute charbelcher by that one...
Just trying to win game 1 is a terrible strategy because probability is compounding. So if you're 60% favored against a deck you're 60% to win g1 but rather more than that to win 2/3, and if you're 40% favored, likewise you're somewhat less than that to win 2/3.
So ideally you'd want the matchups where you're unfavored to only last one game, but by their nature this is difficult to do. Rather, all you're doing is undercutting your own win percentage by dragging game 1 out unnecessarily. Part of why you want to run Charbelcher and I would say Lens and Mesa, as once you've got the game locked down you want to kill them pretty quickly.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
@Pelikanudo
You don't want to lose a single game. :)
Winning the first one is essential, and not losing the second one is kind of ok. Try to win both games!
Reito Lantern is a great Soldevi Digger replacement. However, it's a bit too slow to be relied upon as an anti-graveyard card. A single Mistveil Plains is enough and a Tormod's Crypt, a Grafdigger's Cage, a Phyrexian Furnace or a Nihil Spellbomb can all fill this spot. They all have their pros and cons; your metagame will tell you which one to favor.
Extraplanar Lens is interesting, but I still prefer the Wildfield Borderposts.
Wow, just realized this deck has wraith for 1W at instant speed with scrollrack out and the ability to flip a top even if it draws terminus. Seems pretty insane. Why not play Entreat the Angels as a wincon if you can always guarantee it while your board is set up?
Depending on your build, you might not have lots of mana available to power EtA. Also, EtA has bad synergy with Humility.
I didn’t pick up the deck when Land Tax became legal. I had my playset ready, and as soon as it became legal it made it into my deck. I’ve been playing the same shell for over a year now, having testing several thousand matches online and hundreds in person. I control the board, and eventually win with a singleton win condition. With a maindeck of Leylines, Relics/Cage, Moat/Humility/Island Sanctuary I have no problem establishing board control, using the land tax engine to go off, and winning when I’m ready. I don’t bother playing creatures, I just stop all creatures.
I don’t play a mana hungry strategy, and don’t bother with mana intensive cards. I’d rather E-tutor up scepter turn 1 and go for turn 2 scepter chant and just win.
I simply figured that the work that EtA did would be equal to or greater than the work done by Mesa in context. However I neglected the fact that this deck plays Humility for whatever reason. In that case I certainly see the value in playing Mesa over EtA.
I can assure you that you do not want to engage me in a game of who's-been-trying-to-make-monowhite-control-work-in-Legacy-longer. It is conceivably possible that I could ever lose to anyone in this game I guess, but it will not be to someone that thinks Zuran Orb main or a full spread of CoPs in the board is a thing.
If there was anything else in that post of value I missed it.
Maindeck Leylines are awful, Scepter-Chant is unfortunately also awful at this point. A very tiny fraction of the combo decks in the field are significantly affected by it.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Also an over-emphasis on testing is going to lead you to undervalue winning at a sufficient pace to actually finish three games in a round, which would explain much else of that build.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
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