[Deck] W/x Parfait (Tax/Rack Control)

[yespuhyren]

I was going to respond to both of your posts, but after typing out my responses I realized that I’m wasting my time with an arrogant troll. While I get you missed the COPs as humour, everything else you said is laughably irrelevant or senseless.

You play your lists, I’ll play mine. I’ve been playing legacy since it was Type 1.5 classic. If I have trouble finishing a match in time, let alone winning, I’ll message you. Until then I don’t plan on responding to another one of yours posts.

[(nameless one)]

Hey yespuhyren,

I was playing my list yesterday (although multiplayer casual - along with Goblins, Modern non-combo Pod and Budget 12-post (it resembled like Modern pre-banning) and I find that Solitary Confinement is awesome at buying time. Though I was skipping my draw phases, I was able to put down enough Plains onto the field (although making sure I don't go over my opponents). When I ran out of Plains in the deck, then I sacrificed Solitary Confinement hoping to draw into a bomb. Sure it did I drew a Humility and it was easier for me there.

The that wasn't really acceptable in a real tournament, it could theoretically work out. My main concern now is I'm divided between Solitary Confinement and Island Sanctuary.

Here are the Pros and Cons

Solitary Confinement:
Pros:
- Can also act as a Leyline of Sanctity
- Can also stop islandwalk and flying.
Cons:
- You have to be dedicated to it
- Costs one more mana

Island Sanctuary:
Pros:
- Costs one less mana
- You can choose to draw if you have a better board position and not having Sanctuary to blow up
Cons:
- It doesn't stop Merfolk and anything flying
- It doesn't stop Siege-Gang Commander flying goblins at you.
- Not quite protected like Leyline

I'm wondering what should I use (two of 1-1 split, although I want to use two of one kind)

As for Isochron Scepter, I used to love Scepter lock but I find the mana-development of the deck to be too slow for Scepter. I used to run it when I ran Quinn and my old casual list (as seen at the OP). I've ultimately removed Scepter (and Orim's Chant) for more lands and Noxious Revival

As for Noxious Revival, not only it can recycle artifacts and enchantments, it can also set up Terminus if you're desperate for another one, as well as Wasteland or necessary spells.

As for sideboarding:

I wonder what your list is good against yespuhyren. Aggro is a must breeze for the deck. Now the problem is blue-based Tempo. I would imagine this deck would have a good control matchup but Counter-Top says otherwise.

I used to advocate Trinisphere in the main but with it, the deck loses half of its efficient costing spells. Also, Trinisphere creates a different set-up. I am thinking against Tempo and Combo (storm-based) or any deck that can run in low amounts of land, Trinisphere postboard with a different setup is the way to go. Kinda like a transformational sideboard turning the deck into aggro-Stax (kinda like 8-ball decks [cheap beaters backed up with resistors (Trinisphere). Maybe Stoneforge Mystic package comes in (siding out Humility?)


Share us which matchups are good and bad for your list.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I was going to respond to both of your posts, but after typing out my responses I realized that I’m wasting my time with an arrogant troll. While I get you missed the COPs as humour, everything else you said is laughably irrelevant or senseless.

Then your response was to type that you had no response, just like your previous reply wasn't an actual argument but a laughable attempt to assert authority. Speaking of...

You play your lists, I’ll play mine. I’ve been playing legacy since it was Type 1.5 classic.

To clarify a bit, the reason that this line of argument is ridiculous isn't solely or even primarily because I have far more experience playing mono-white control in Legacy, and yes, in 1.5 too; it's because experience is not a reliable indicator of correctness.

So your insistence on non-arguments renders your posts rather easy to dismiss as insignificant.

[Master Shake]

I've been casually playing around with a few lists of Mono-White Land Tax-based control since the unbanning. I started using a slightly modifided version of yespuhyren's list a few days ago and liked it a bit more than I thought I would.

20 Plains
4 Mox Diamond

3 Scroll Rack
4 Land Tax
1 Planar Birth
1 Zuran Orb

4 Enlightened Tutor
2 Argivian Find

4 Path to Exile
1 Wrath of God
1 Moat
1 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring

2 Isochron Scepter
4 Orim's Chant
3 Abeyance
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Reito Lantern

1 Sacred Mesa
1 Goblin Charbelcher

The deck was lacking some of the Utility that I remembered from the Older Parfait lists, which is really what I was hoping to recapture. I was also looking for a better way to combat control mirrors in the main. Previously I had played a list I'd thrown together, that lended me some of the ideas that I incorporated here.

After testing, I'd like to assure you that Reito Lantern is actually quite good, not amazing, but fulfills endgame duties while threatening to steal Snapcaster targets. I had considered testing out Elixir of Immortality in this slot, but wasn't totally fond of the idea of recycling everything.

Thinking about the deck, I think that a heavy Mox Diamond build with a splash is what would best suit me. I have tested with a Blue Splash to include Jace, and it was fine for just throwing him in there. I think that the deck could really benefit from starting to differentiate itself from Quinn + Land Tax by exploring the options, keeping this thread as a place for W/x control, but exploring what the different splashes can offer.

Off the top of my head Blue offers some great options: Brainstorm and Jace are obvious suggestions, and how they interact positively with Miracles lets you play a more W/u Miracle list that focuses on a different aspect of the game than a U/w miracle list. other offerings blue has are Trade Routes which can both enable Land Tax and act as an auxiliary engine in place of Scroll Rack. Trade routes also works quite well with Planar Birth. Back to Basics is rather strong as well, forcing an opponent to commit lands to the table and can really swing a control mirror.

Red has been discussed a bit as giving Burning Wish and Blood Moon, both of which are great options. mana efficient sweepers like Pyroclasm seem quite good against Maverick, Goblins and Elves. Lightning Helix is also fine in most situations.

Black and Green seem lackluster, but Vindicate is pretty attractive. If someone has the time to collaborate a list of desirable cards to splash for, it really isn't a problem to play a few fetchlands, a dual or two and some off-color basics to support it. The loss is really only in using Goblin Charbelcher as a win-condition.

[yespuhyren]

Best splash cards I’ve found so far:

Red:

Firestorm
Gamble
Blood Moon
Goblin Trenches
Burning Wish
Lightning Helix (in scepter heavy lists)

Green:

Sylvan Library
Sterling Grove
Dueling Grounds

Sideboard Options:
Choke
Carpet of Flowers

Black:

Bitterblossom
Chains of Mephistopheles
The Abyss

Blue:

Back to Basics
Daze
Trade Routes
In the Eye of Chaos

[yespuhyren]

Hey yespuhyren,

I was playing my list yesterday (although multiplayer casual - along with Goblins, Modern non-combo Pod and Budget 12-post (it resembled like Modern pre-banning) and I find that Solitary Confinement is awesome at buying time. Though I was skipping my draw phases, I was able to put down enough Plains onto the field (although making sure I don't go over my opponents). When I ran out of Plains in the deck, then I sacrificed Solitary Confinement hoping to draw into a bomb. Sure it did I drew a Humility and it was easier for me there.

The that wasn't really acceptable in a real tournament, it could theoretically work out. My main concern now is I'm divided between Solitary Confinement and Island Sanctuary.

Here are the Pros and Cons

Solitary Confinement:
Pros:
- Can also act as a Leyline of Sanctity
- Can also stop islandwalk and flying.
Cons:
- You have to be dedicated to it
- Costs one more mana

Island Sanctuary:
Pros:
- Costs one less mana
- You can choose to draw if you have a better board position and not having Sanctuary to blow up
Cons:
- It doesn't stop Merfolk and anything flying
- It doesn't stop Siege-Gang Commander flying goblins at you.
- Not quite protected like Leyline

I'm wondering what should I use (two of 1-1 split, although I want to use two of one kind)

As for Isochron Scepter, I used to love Scepter lock but I find the mana-development of the deck to be too slow for Scepter. I used to run it when I ran Quinn and my old casual list (as seen at the OP). I've ultimately removed Scepter (and Orim's Chant) for more lands and Noxious Revival

As for Noxious Revival, not only it can recycle artifacts and enchantments, it can also set up Terminus if you're desperate for another one, as well as Wasteland or necessary spells.

As for sideboarding:

I wonder what your list is good against yespuhyren. Aggro is a must breeze for the deck. Now the problem is blue-based Tempo. I would imagine this deck would have a good control matchup but Counter-Top says otherwise.

I used to advocate Trinisphere in the main but with it, the deck loses half of its efficient costing spells. Also, Trinisphere creates a different set-up. I am thinking against Tempo and Combo (storm-based) or any deck that can run in low amounts of land, Trinisphere postboard with a different setup is the way to go. Kinda like a transformational sideboard turning the deck into aggro-Stax (kinda like 8-ball decks [cheap beaters backed up with resistors (Trinisphere). Maybe Stoneforge Mystic package comes in (siding out Humility?)

Share us which matchups are good and bad for your list.

The main reason I play Island Sanctuary over Solitary is that there is no discard downside. Goblins should be a joke. If you have Leyline of Sanctity in play, then drop Island Sanctuary, you’ve just stopped Goblins completely.

On Scepter Chant, I never understood what people were talking about when they said it was too mana intensive. You need 2 mana to lock down the game, 3 to stop creatures. You don’t need to do anything else generally speaking.

I’ll happily play turn 1 E-tutor, Turn 2 scepter chant, and sit behind that until I draw lands and build board presence while chanting them every single turn. What do I care if I’m taking 2-3 a turn if I’m chanting, I’ll find another plains, stop the attacks, then just keep going until I’m casting spells. There aren’t a lot of decks that can deal with an active scepter/chant plan

The goal of my list is to shut down all viable win conditions, hence the 4 maindeck leyline of sanctity. This deck wants to stop the opponent from having any means of winning.

Basic aggro and combo are a breeze. Maverick is practically a bye, though elves, goblins, merfolk and the like rarely put up much of a fight

Vs Combo and burn, you’re hoping on the 40% chance of that Leyline.

Ichorid/Reanimator can be tough if you don’t hit answers, but with 4 e-tutor and cage and relic main to make it a joke, though you have viable means to winning as well through the other silver bullets

Vs Sneak/Show and the like, you have a ton of answers, they have a ton of ways to win. It’s all in the cards. If you know what you’re playing, just play e-tutor for humility. You don’t need to cast it, just let it sit in your hand to shut down Show and Tell

RUG delver was a bitch at first, but I’ve been testing with David Caplan for the last few weeks and have knocked out a lot of the issues I was having before. Maindeck Relic is really good, and post board you definitely want the 2nd relic of progenitus and COP Green. COP Green pretty much walls everything but Delvers, which are stopped by Paths, Kegs, etc. It’s almost worth swapping the 2nd relic for the Cage if you’re in a RUG heavy meta with not a lot of Ichorid/Reanimator

The worst matchup would be U/W countertop/miracles, as it can sit around doing nothing. That’s why the SB has 2x Seal, 2x O-ring, and 1x Aura of Silence. If you can Needle the top before they can resolve counterbalance, you’re generally not that poor off. Their only win conditions are generally Jace (stopped by Leyline) and Angels, Snapcasters, etc which is walled by the rest of the deck.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

People are packing a lot of sorcery speed answers to problem permanents in GSZ-> Pridemage, Vindicate/MaelstromPulse, or Pernicious Deed. This is aside from normal counters of course. So giving them a full turn's warning that you're going to try and chant them out of the game is an excellent way to just get 2-for-1'd.

I would also say it's really obvious that you haven't tested against combo if you think it's mainly a joke. Your deck is packed full of bad answers. You have nothing of significance to stop High Tide from crushing your face, that's basically an auto-loss; Leyline and Chant do nothing against Reanimator, Leyline does nothing against Sneak and Show and Chant stops one activation of Sneak Attack if you kick it.

Part of the reason that I stopped running Scepter-Chant in this format was that aside from the printing of Pridemage, Tendrils had receded as the dominant combo archetype.

You also just don' really have a lot of answers to aggro. You've got 4 Paths and 4-mana permanents you can't hope to actually cast with only 18 real mana sources unless you're activating Land Tax, which literally every aggro deck in the format can stop you from doing at very little detriment to its own mana development. Aether Vial completely shuts down the Land Taxes you're banking your entire gameplan on, and you have no actual answers to swarms of Merfolk or Goblins or Elves + Eldrazi.

This is exactly the kind of pile cutesy, shiny cool things that might come together in theory but won't in tournaments that I've been trying to stop people from playing in the archetype for ten years. If Land Tax is to form a viable deck it's not going to be like this; it's going to be in a deck that, first of all, can reliably win without Land Tax active, and that can consistently get draws that beat up on creature decks, instead of having a million kitschy pieces of shit stuck in hand.

[yespuhyren]

Since you seem like a troll who isn’t going to leave me alone...

People are packing a lot of sorcery speed answers to problem permanents in GSZ-> Pridemage, Vindicate/MaelstromPulse, or Pernicious Deed. This is aside from normal counters of course. So giving them a full turn's warning that you're going to try and chant them out of the game is an excellent way to just get 2-for-1’d.

It also says "if you don’t have Vindicate/Maelstrom Pulse or GSZ/Pridemage this turn you lose" against a lot of those decks...Oh yeah. You can play it after turn 2. What a novel idea.

I would also say it's really obvious that you haven't tested against combo if you think it's mainly a joke. Your deck is packed full of bad answers. You have nothing of significance to stop High Tide from crushing your face, that's basically an auto-loss; Leyline and Chant do nothing against Reanimator, Leyline does nothing against Sneak and Show and Chant stops one activation of Sneak Attack if you kick it.

Good point. 4x Leyline and 4x Orim’s Chant is awful against combo . 90% of the combo decks I see are ANT, Belcher, and the like. If High Tide somehow becomes an issue I’ll change things up.

I wonder if blue players ever side out force of will? They play 4x Force to stop unfair decks, I play Leyline to stop Tendrils, High Tide, Burn, Discard, Jace, Intuition, etc. Believe it or not...that’s a card that can be sided out in game 2

Part of the reason that I stopped running Scepter-Chant in this format was that aside from the printing of Pridemage, Tendrils had receded as the dominant combo archetype.

Scepter Chant is not just for tendrils decks...You just need to cast chant. Scepter chant is to lock out decks that DO NOT have answers to it immediately, which is a lot of decks. But you would know that scepter chant isn’t in the deck solely for combo with your 10 years+ experience telling people not to play it.

You also just don' really have a lot of answers to aggro. You've got 4 Paths and 4-mana permanents you can't hope to actually cast with only 18 real mana sources unless you're activating Land Tax, which literally every aggro deck in the format can stop you from doing at very little detriment to its own mana development. Aether Vial completely shuts down the Land Taxes you're banking your entire gameplan on, and you have no actual answers to swarms of Merfolk or Goblins or Elves + Eldrazi.

Except Island Sanctuary and Powder Keg in addition to 2x Oblivion Ring, Moat, Humility, Scepter Chant in game 1 alone, and more game 2...

This is exactly the kind of pile cutesy, shiny cool things that might come together in theory but won't in tournaments that I've been trying to stop people from playing in the archetype for ten years. If Land Tax is to form a viable deck it's not going to be like this; it's going to be in a deck that, first of all, can reliably win without Land Tax active, and that can consistently get draws that beat up on creature decks, instead of having a million kitschy pieces of shit stuck in hand.

Well, you spend at least one part of each post trying to assert yourself as better than everyone else, so I’ll just assume this is what that paragraph is and I won’t attempt to argue anything there.

What else ya got? You’ll soon start to realize that I also couldn’t care less what your opinion is and that you should just stop commenting on anything I say. You can take this as me asking you to stop replying to anything I say for the sake of the thread staying creative and constructive versus your approach of cocky arrogance and stupid arguments.

There is legitimately nothing you could do short of winning a major event with mono white land tax sometime soon that would give me any interest in listening to you.

[(nameless one)]

Hey yespuhyren,

You played with Caplan? Like goobafish? I'm guessing you're from Ontario?

As for your list, you said you wanted to run Terminus. Why haven't you change that? Is Keg actually better?

As for your land count, I somehow agree with IBA. Sometimes I find myself mulligan to five because I cannot get ample amount of lands. I don't think relying on Land Tax alone is good. I'm actually going to bump my land count to at least 20.

Also, I might play a small tournament. I'm contemplating on running your list (maybe some changes). I'm wondering what your sideboard looks like and for what matchups.

[yespuhyren]

If you want to play 20 lands, that’s perfectly reasonable. I’d just move 2x Relics into the board, add the 2x Plains, and just fill the other 3 Metagame Slots up in the board. The same could be said for adding 2x Extraplanar lens if you so choose that route. i have 2 foil ones, but still don’t really want to play them. That being said, I wouldn’t do the snow-covered plains if I did, but that’s just because I love my foil lightning plains :D.

You are correct about Ontario and the like about Caplan, and he just left lol We play all the time, I have been playing with him for 15 years since camp. I’m going to repost the full list to make it more easy to see. I like to post images, as some people like me hate reading deck lists, and it’s much easier just to look at cards in the deck and pick up the feel of it that way vs text on a page

Couscous Parfait - Maindeck - 60
Mana Sources (22)
18x Plains
4x Mox Diamond

Instants (14)
4x Enlightened Tutor
4x Path to Exile
4x Orim’s Chant
2x Argivian Find

Artifacts (13)
3x Scroll Rack
2x Zuran Orb
2x Isochron Scepter
2x Sensei’s Divining Top
2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Pithing Needle
1x Goblin Charbelcher

Enchantments (11)
4x Land Tax
4x Leyline of Sanctity
1x Island Sanctuary
1x Humility
1x Moat

Currently my sideboard is:

1x Grafdigger’s Cage (Dredge, Reanimator, Past in Flames, Snapcasters, Lingering Souls, etc etc
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ethersworn Canonist (Enchantress, Combo, etc)
1x Cursed Totem (Maverick, Elves, Griselbrand)
1x Powder Keg (Aggro, Empty the Warrens, Affinity, Etc)
2x Seal of Cleansing (Enchantress, MUD, Countertop)
2x Oblivion Ring (Show and Tell mainly)
2x Ghostly Prison
1x Nevermore (Most matchups)
1x Aura of Silence (Enchantress, MUD, Countertop, some storm)
1x Story Circle
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon

There are a ton of cards that cycle in the open slots, but most of them don’t see much play and those 10 generally have covered everything for me. Other cards of interest that I’ve looked into, tested, and found viable:

2x Sun Droplet
1x Karmic Justice
1x Humility
1x Luminarch Ascension
1x Solitary Confinement
1x Juntu Stakes
1x Harsh Judgement
1x Warmth
1-3x Ethersworn Canonist/Rule of Law
1x Sphere of Resistance/Trinisphere/Defense Grid
1x Wheel of Sun and Moon
1-2x Relic of Progenitus
1x Meekstone
1x Story Circle
1x Porphyry Nodes
1-3x Ghostly Prison
1-4x Caltrops

The biggest advice I have for sideboarding is to play what your metagame dictates! Sideboards should never be copied card for card unless you’re playing in the same metagame as the person whose list you’ve copied.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Since you seem like a troll who isn’t going to leave me alone...

Yes, I'm sure it's an unfathomable burden for you to be called upon to actually defend yourself in this, an internet discussion forum.

Oh, lest we forget,

If I have trouble finishing a match in time, let alone winning, I’ll message you. Until then I don’t plan on responding to another one of yours posts.

Best laid plans...

It also says "if you don’t have Vindicate/Maelstrom Pulse or GSZ/Pridemage this turn you lose" against a lot of those decks...Oh yeah. You can play it after turn 2. What a novel idea.

Good luck with getting that running on 18 lands, and with no removal besides Path to sweep out, say, Moms and Thalia and Pridemages, or hordes of little red or blue or green men.

Good point. 4x Leyline and 4x Orim’s Chant is awful against combo . 90% of the combo decks I see are ANT, Belcher, and the like. If High Tide somehow becomes an issue I’ll change things up.

Then you have a weird meta. Reanimator and SnT decks are overwhelmingly more popular than Tendrils. High Tide is somewhat less popular, but the aggregate of other combo decks that don't give a shit about Leyline, including Enchantress, GlimpseElves, Mud and Imperial Painter also significantly exceeds Tendrils.

Now I mean if your meta is all Tendrils and Burn, that's a thing I guess, but this thread should also be talking about what's good in a general Legacy environment.

I wonder if blue players ever side out force of will? They play 4x Force to stop unfair decks, I play Leyline to stop Tendrils, High Tide, Burn, Discard, Jace, Intuition, etc. Believe it or not...that’s a card that can be sided out in game 2

Leyline doesn't stop High Tide, nor does it stop the part of Jace that's generally going to lose you the game. Also this comparison is facetious because Force of Will, while sub-optimal against decks like Merfolk, Maverick, etc., is still far more relevant than Leyline, which is not at all.

Scepter Chant is not just for tendrils decks...You just need to cast chant. Scepter chant is to lock out decks that DO NOT have answers to it immediately, which is a lot of decks. But you would know that scepter chant isn’t in the deck solely for combo with your 10 years+ experience telling people not to play it.

Actually I told people to play Scepter Chant for quite a while. The reality is that, besides the fact that it was always a drain on the clock, it's just not as good as it used to be due to a number of factors, such as the strengthening of blue and the printing of Pridemage. Thalia doesn't help either.

Except Island Sanctuary and Powder Keg in addition to 2x Oblivion Ring, Moat, Humility, Scepter Chant in game 1 alone, and more game 2...

I'm going to do you a favor and pretend you are not suggesting dropping an early Island Sanctuary. The problems with trying to assemble Scepter-Chant early (especially given that this will usually mean tutoring for it and opening yourself up to a 3-for-1 that will be essentially game ending) have already been discussed; Powder Keg is of very limited value against most decks (why do I even need to point that out?,) and Oblivion Ring is pretty meek if all you're doing is hitting a beater with it. Moat and Humility are decent cards but often insufficient to put you out of reach if you aren't first doing a lot to slow them down, and again, your mana base is simply too greedy to cast these cards reliably when it matters.

In order to reliably combat the fair creature decks, which are your bread and butter matchups, where you're trying to steal most of your EV- since nothing you do is really going to give you a very strong combo matchup anyway- you're going to want probably 1-2 StP minimum, and 4x Terminus. Also for God's sake, the 4th Scroll Rack and at least 2 Tops for consistency.

Well, you spend at least one part of each post trying to assert yourself as better than everyone else, so I’ll just assume this is what that paragraph is and I won’t attempt to argue anything there.

This is laughable. You are the only one who has- twice in fact- attempted to assert authority here as a substitution for an argument. I merely pointed out my far superior authority in this archetype when you made such an attempt, which makes your butthurt over this pretty ridiculous. And I even said that my superior experience in this archetype does not of course translate into my being necessarily right- determining that is going to depend on some mixture of results (testing or tournament,) statistics and strategic theory, which you seem to resent being asked to provide.

What else ya got? You’ll soon start to realize that I also couldn’t care less what your opinion is and that you should just stop commenting on anything I say. You can take this as me asking you to stop replying to anything I say for the sake of the thread staying creative and constructive versus your approach of cocky arrogance and stupid arguments.

There is legitimately nothing you could do short of winning a major event with mono white land tax sometime soon that would give me any interest in listening to you.

What, so you don't have the self-control to follow through on your own threat to ignore me, so now you're asking me to do it for you?

I honestly don't care about your opinion in particular, except to the extent that when you're wrong I can prevent people from listening to you, and thus wasting their time and energy and money, by making it clear that you're wrong.

[yespuhyren]

I honestly don't care about your opinion in particular, except to the extent that when you're wrong I can prevent people from listening to you, and thus wasting their time and energy and money, by making it clear that you're wrong.

Cool. I’m wrong, you’re the best, we get it. If you play 5 kills and I play 1, we’re clearly playing different styles of decks. To whoever listens to your advice, good for them. To whoever plays my list, they’ll make the decision themselves. I don’t build my list for the online metagame and your metagame. I couldn’t care about your metagame, or anyone else’s. I build for mine, which has a lot of burn, tendrils, and Goblins, RUG, Delver, Merfolk, Maverick. Argument Done and done? Thanks for your public service, and if you’re that much better than all of us you should spend some time pushing the thread forward with lists and info.

For anyone interested, against decks like Goblins, if you can play turn 0 Leyline, turn 1 E-tutor, turn 2 Island Sanctuary, they have no outs. Island Sanctuary is often very good early, as opposed to what was argued.

This is the list you posted:

18 Snow-Covered Plains
3 Scrying Sheets

4 Scroll Rack
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Land Tax
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Argivian Find

3 Extraplanar Lens

4 Path to Exile
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus

2 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Venser's Journal

2 Sacred mesa
1 Batterskull
2 Goblin Charbelcher

You knocked my list in the combo matchup, where I at least seem to have 4x Leyline 4x Chant and more in the maindeck. You literally have 0 cards outside of Tormod’s Crypt that do anything to combo, and Crypt is loose at best. Are you just conceding every game 1 to any and every combo deck?

I’m not saying don’t post, but why don’t you post a sideboard, some matchup results with your deck, etc. Show some valid arguments and theories through your list, like how you beat combo, instead of knocking other people’s lists...

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Cool. I’m wrong, you’re the best, we get it. If you play 5 kills and I play 1, we’re clearly playing different styles of decks. To whoever listens to your advice, good for them. To whoever plays my list, they’ll make the decision themselves. I don’t build my list for the online metagame and your metagame. I couldn’t care about your metagame, or anyone else’s. I build for mine, which has a lot of burn, tendrils, and Goblins, RUG, Delver, Merfolk, Maverick. Argument Done and done? Thanks for your public service, and if you’re that much better than all of us you should spend some time pushing the thread forward with lists and info.

You do not seem to really grok the purpose of discussion forums. By venturing a decklist into this thread you're opening it up for public discussion; you don't get to cry foul that people critique your list or its application to metagames that aren't all burn and tendrils.

For anyone interested, against decks like Goblins, if you can play turn 0 Leyline, turn 1 E-tutor, turn 2 Island Sanctuary, they have no outs. Island Sanctuary is often very good early, as opposed to what was argued.

That is a truly terrible idea. Besides being difficult to pull off, it means you just sitting there for thirty five minutes waiting for them to deck. The problem with this is that it gives them total control of the clock; all they have to do at that point is wait til about fifteen-twenty minutes left in the round and scoop. From there they can quickly sideboard and play out the remaining games; if they win they can do it usually pretty quickly, especially since you're not even running a board clearer; but if, say, you stabilize game 3, you'll still have no way to win in time.

Also I don't know what you mean by "like Goblins" here, since all other major midrange decks have flyers and/or islandwalkers.

This is the list you posted:

18 Snow-Covered Plains
3 Scrying Sheets

4 Scroll Rack
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Land Tax
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Argivian Find

3 Extraplanar Lens

4 Path to Exile
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus

2 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Venser's Journal

2 Sacred mesa
1 Batterskull
2 Goblin Charbelcher

You knocked my list in the combo matchup, where I at least seem to have 4x Leyline 4x Chant and more in the maindeck. You literally have 0 cards outside of Tormod’s Crypt that do anything to combo, and Crypt is loose at best. Are you just conceding every game 1 to any and every combo deck?

Except Sneak and Show, yes.

My criticism wasn't that you were losing to combo; it's that you were losing to combo while spending an enormous number of slots doing it.

I’m not saying don’t post, but why don’t you post a sideboard, some matchup results with your deck, etc. Show some valid arguments and theories through your list, like how you beat combo, instead of knocking other people’s lists...

My suggestion for post board against combo would be;

+1 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Rule of Law
+1 Ethersworn Canonist
+1 Aura of Silence
+1 Nevermore
+1 Runed Halo
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Leyline of Sanctity

Depending on the given combo strategy, obviously. Note that that's still not going to give you an overall fantastic matchup, but you're not focused primarily on that; the ultimate point here is to cut your losses to the extent plausible and focus on making up ground in other matchups; not just auto-scooping to other control decks, for instance.

Another sideboard suggestion would be just run a fucking Story Circle, seriously. My current list + SB I'm testing:

18 Snow-Covered Plains
3 Scrying Sheets

4 Scroll Rack
3 Sensei's Divining Top

4 Land Tax
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Argivian Find

3 Extraplanar Lens

4 Path to Exile
2 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus

2 Humility
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Sacred Mesa
1 Pithing Needle
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Venser's Journal
1 Goblin Charbelcher
1 Batterskull

SB:

1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pithing Needle
1 Runed Halo
1 Nevermore
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Rule of Law
1 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Aura of Silence
1 Powder Keg
1 Story Circle
2 Karmic Justice
(or 1 KJ/1 Sacred Ground, dunno)
1 Luminarch Ascension

[(nameless one)]

I have nothing on this thread right now and nothing on you yespuhyren things just got serious now that IBA is going to test this out.

Given that IBA is actually testing and not durdling and "testing" the list, he actually has credibility when it comes to mono-white based control decks. The dude spawned Crazy 88 (Skullclamp control back in type 1.5) and turned a half-assed Dutch Stax deck into somewhat a feasable established metagame deck (Quinn) with a plausable draw engine and early game strategy (something that Dutch Staxx sucked on).

@IBA:

I am still not sold on the Venser's Journal idea. The no max hand size is cool (since if you have a massive hand, you can just Scroll half your library to your hand) but its at 5 mana. The lifegain is good too. I was actually thinking of Elixir of Immortality for lifegain and shuffle effect but you still have that seven card limit.

Also, why Tormod's Crypt and not Relic of Progenitus. I also like the idea of Grafdigger's Cage as not only it shuts down Snapcaster Mage, but it also shuts down Green Sun's Zenith.

Personally, I would remove both Sacred Mesa and run three Batterskull. That card is a beating against aggro. (maybe a 2-2 split with Goblin Charbelcher)

And for Agrivian Find, what about Noxious Revival on that slot instead? You can 'set-up' discarded or used Terminus with it. Although I understand the card disadvantage behind Revival.

I've always wanted to run Wasteland in Quinn but it just doesn't fit. I know you're still running the Snow-draw engine with Scrying Sheets but Would a one or two-of Wasteland be okay here? It also deals with lands that produces more than one mana.

Also, why no Mox Diamond?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'm not sold on Journal either, it's an idea I'm testing out. It may be nothing more than the danger of cool things, ultimately.

And you'd take out the Mesas only because you've never had Lens + Mesa in play. In fact that card's the only reason I would run a MWC list these days without Elspeths. Giving all your lands T: Put a 1/1 flyer into play is actually amazing.

Crypt is over Relic for the obvious reason; you want to be able to recur things- including possible Crypt- with Find. Drawing a single card is less relevant than this. Most decks utilize the graveyard in some way in Legacy, and you can always shuffle Crypt back with Scroll Rack anyway.

Cage is more reasonable but has the drawback of not affecting many graveyard effects; it won't shrink a Mongoose or Goyf or Knight, for instance, and it won't end Crucible or Academy Ruins or Life from the Loam shenanigans.

I don't like Noxious Revival at all. Paying life is a problem, as is the card disadvantage and the need to wait a turn. The mana less isn't an important bonus by the time you'd use it, so really the only big pro is that it can give you back a Terminus.

Mox Diamond there just isn't the room for nor the land count. It's only good with an active Land Tax, and the list is trying to avoid that trap.

[Pelikanudo]

@K-Run:
I'd like to see your latest build.

@TaxMan
Too.

Both:
Elspeth I think its the key card, charbelcher is good, but it makes the deck basic land dependant.
Elspeth however contributes with 3 of the roles we need - Protection to all enchantments and a way to kill opponent avoiding humility + moat, we can consider the card as a card that is difficult to kill. Maybe 2 is the number.

So, I'm definately playing plateaus, althouth I have to get them! and more city of traitors.
I'm trying the New Digger (dont remember the name artifact 2 ability 3), I think its great, it also cotributes with 2 important roles.

And related to the C.Balance match up.
Definately putting in pyroblasts seem a great option but not sure, I remember the list from the past and thinking in going back up to 3 A.Of silnce. this card seems to shine and more when you have plenty of number, I'll take out nevermore.
this card avoids E.Explosives, oblivion ring, oblivion stone, pernicius AND LED, petals,
its also good vs MUD and the sneak attack envhantment.
AND makes all these spells costs 2 more!
I'm really thinking in putting in 4 and lets a try.
Also senseis is good but does not fit in here, with our nedle main well want to name it sometime for sure.

Regarding the mana base I will need maybe 20 lands 4 moxen diamond (people don't play this gem...) and 1 c.mox.

Still 4 b.wish... theyre so good...

Please let me know your thinkngs!!
Need to make top 8 with this soon!

@TheInfamous...a and rest:
E.Tutor must be played as 4 of in this decks as a concept.
I think both A.Find and Noxius revival are shit copared to b.wish.
First thisnk on the creatures you really need to kill: 2 lacaky maybe and d.confidant, this last is important, for the rest, dont mind as we have moat OR humility plus x to win.
Conculsion: terminus and swords can be useless, you simply need to focus on key cards and make them resolve.
The b.wish->replenish for that reason has been so great in those games, of course I can win with b.whish->terminus - scroll rack abeyance. but that is simply not the direction of the deck.

And another point to make it clear:
About Path vs Swords:
With path opponent choose to put a land or not, tha means the following:
The opponent has the decision so this is only usefull if:
1. The opponent does not know what your playing
2. The opponent is a bad player
3. The opponent will going to put an extra land TO:
3.1. Almost win the game because is a good player
3.2. Almost lost the game because is a bad player. This is the usefull one.

Thats simple.
I'll take Swords always as a 4 of, the option of leaving a player an extra land in legacy is no comparable with the for sure gain x life.

My personal Point, I started to test the deck with no swords and no path and still dont regret them, again, they re not the direction.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Both:
Elspeth I think its the key card, charbelcher is good, but it makes the deck basic land dependant.
Elspeth however contributes with 3 of the roles we need - Protection to all enchantments and a way to kill opponent avoiding humility + moat, we can consider the card as a card that is difficult to kill. Maybe 2 is the number.

Wanting Humility + Moat + Elspeth is just greedy. Moat is itself kind of a crapshoot. Also getting to ultimate Elspeth is tricky as Hell.

Also Charbelcher really doesn't make you basic land dependent, you don't have to kill them all in one go with the card.

Also senseis is good but does not fit in here, with our nedle main well want to name it sometime for sure.

Having redundancy on Rack effects is pretty important. If you need to name Top with Needle, just shuffle it away with Scroll Rack.

@TheInfamous...a and rest:
E.Tutor must be played as 4 of in this decks as a concept.

This sounds more like an article of faith than anything else. Why? Drawing multiple Tutors is miserable.

I think both A.Find and Noxius revival are shit copared to b.wish.
First thisnk on the creatures you really need to kill: 2 lacaky maybe and d.confidant, this last is important, for the rest, dont mind as we have moat OR humility plus x to win.
Conculsion: terminus and swords can be useless, you simply need to focus on key cards and make them resolve.
The b.wish->replenish for that reason has been so great in those games, of course I can win with b.whish->terminus - scroll rack abeyance. but that is simply not the direction of the deck.

I have no idea what you're talking about or how you're trying to win if you don't have creature removal. This deck is useless without creature removal. Absolutely worthless.

And another point to make it clear:
About Path vs Swords:
With path opponent choose to put a land or not, tha means the following:
The opponent has the decision so this is only usefull if:
1. The opponent does not know what your playing
2. The opponent is a bad player
3. The opponent will going to put an extra land TO:
3.1. Almost win the game because is a good player
3.2. Almost lost the game because is a bad player. This is the usefull one.

Thats simple.
I'll take Swords always as a 4 of, the option of leaving a player an extra land in legacy is no comparable with the for sure gain x life.

My personal Point, I started to test the deck with no swords and no path and still dont regret them, again, they re not the direction.

If your opponent is choosing not to gain a land with Path, then it's drawback-free removal, whereas StP would have a drawback

[Pelikanudo]

@TheInfamous
Regarding to
This sounds more like an article of faith than anything else. Why? Drawing multiple Tutors is miserable.And the rest of things.:

It is ok for you, for me at least I prefer to draw as many E.tutors as I can. So stop discussing.
As I said E.Tutor is the card the deck is based around, in conjuntion with Tax and S.Rack and Silver Bullets. Simple and Easy.
Well, sorry but I don't see your ideas of the deck in that direction. Don't disccus with me in that direction. Thanks anyway.

@TaxMan and K-Run still awaiting your ideas about above.

[K-Run]

@Pelikanudo:

I don't know if Maverick is popular at your place, but you have no outs if Gaddock Teeg hits the battlefield before Humility.

If you play Plateaus, you should play Charbelcher as well. Plateau being a Mountain, belcher deals twice the damage...

Anyway, here's what I'll be playing tomorrow. I also added a link to my current decklist in my signature. You can always refer to that page for the most recent updates.

Main deck:

2x Sensei's Divining Top
1x Pithing Needle
1x Cursed Totem
4x Mox Diamond
4x Scroll Rack
1x Wildfield Borderpost
1x Batterskull

3x Land Tax
2x Humility
2x Oblivion Ring
1x Luminarch Ascension

15x Plains
1x Karakas
4x Crystal Vein
1x Mistveil Plains

1x Elspeth, Knight-Errant

4x Swords to Plowshares
3x Enlightened Tutor
2x Tithe
3x Noxious Revival
4x Terminus

Sideboard:

1x Rule of Law
1x Pithing Needle
1x Tormod's Crypt
1x Jester's Cap
1x Humility
1x Greater Auramancy (I had a free slot; anything better than that?)
1x Luminarch Ascension
1x Leyline of Sanctity
2x Timely Reinforcements
1x Grafdigger's Cage
4x Banishing Stroke

Due to metagame considerations, I decided to run Cursed Totem over Grafdigger's Cage in the main deck.

I'll let you know how the tournament went on Sunday.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

@TheInfamous
Regarding to
This sounds more like an article of faith than anything else. Why? Drawing multiple Tutors is miserable.And the rest of things.:

It is ok for you, for me at least I prefer to draw as many E.tutors as I can. So stop discussing.
As I said E.Tutor is the card the deck is based around, in conjuntion with Tax and S.Rack and Silver Bullets. Simple and Easy.
Well, sorry but I don't see your ideas of the deck in that direction. Don't disccus with me in that direction. Thanks anyway.

@TaxMan and K-Run still awaiting your ideas about above.

Ummm, no. I do not think people really are grokking how this discussion forum thing works; I don't stop discussing something just because you inexplicably want me to.

Tutor is bad in multiples, and stuffing your deck full of 1x silver bullets is equally bad. You don't want to be drawing a bunch of card disadvantage and useless chff, even with Scroll Rack.

@K- Run:

Have you tested Lens?

Alternate ideas along the same lines as Borderpost/Crystal Vein:

Lotus Vale
Remote Farm
Ruins of Trokair