[Deck] TinFins 3: Return of the Onion Burst

[kihachi]

The pacts are to protect the Show and tell.

Or it could be used to protect you when you combo out. And i find that this deck dont have any spare Resources. Im even tempted to main deck these in game 1.
I keep loosing to FoW, and in my Meta, ppl know what i play and tend to mulligan to counter backup.

The reason I ask is, like I said, unless you're S&Ting Griz into play, your Pact protection will probably kill you next turn. And even then, it's hard to go off the same turn you S&T Griz into play because you can't attack to gain 7.

[Richard Cheese]

The reason I ask is, like I said, unless you're S&Ting Griz into play, your Pact protection will probably kill you next turn. And even then, it's hard to go off the same turn you S&T Griz into play because you can't attack to gain 7.

I would also not advice Pact if you're going for Show and Tell. Show and tell is slower, it's blue, and because you lose haste, you lose 7 cards. Often times you're going to find that a better plan is to just sit on a 7/7 flier and only try to combo off if your opponent has an answer for that. Since you're slowing down anyway, and you really need to win on the stack, Flusterstorm is a good option, as is Silence. If you're adding Flusterstorm and Show and Tell, you get close to having enough blue to support Force as well. I think my last SnT board looked something like this:

4 Show and Tell
3 Flusterstorm
3 Pithing Needle
2 Force of Will
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Echoing Truth


I opted for Truth over Chain because I hate the idea of giving someone the option to bounce my Griselbrand, but it's possible that situation won't come up enough that it's worth the extra mana.

[GiveMeYourOil]

I would also not advice Pact if you're going for Show and Tell. Show and tell is slower, it's blue, and because you lose haste, you lose 7 cards. Often times you're going to find that a better plan is to just sit on a 7/7 flier and only try to combo off if your opponent has an answer for that. Since you're slowing down anyway, and you really need to win on the stack, Flusterstorm is a good option, as is Silence. If you're adding Flusterstorm and Show and Tell, you get close to having enough blue to support Force as well. I think my last SnT board looked something like this:

4 Show and Tell
3 Flusterstorm
3 Pithing Needle
2 Force of Will
1 Chain of Vapor
2 Echoing Truth


I opted for Truth over Chain because I hate the idea of giving someone the option to bounce my Griselbrand, but it's possible that situation won't come up enough that it's worth the extra mana.

When you run 4 show and tell in the SB, Dont you also want more fattyes i the SB ? or is the 5 targets in main enuff (4 GB 1 Emrakrul) ?

[.dk]

When you run 4 show and tell in the SB, Dont you also want more fattyes i the SB ? or is the 5 targets in main enuff (4 GB 1 Emrakrul) ?

I generally found a couple Lim-Dul's Vaults to be sufficient to find whichever half of the SnT package you were missing when I was packing Show and Tell. You still have a very good shot at storming out off of Griselbrand if you Show and Tell him into play while running Children of Korlis, so that can still be the goal. More targets certainly wouldn't hurt if you're planning on winning in the attack step though. The question you bring up though I think is one of the reasons that most of us have shied away from Show and Tell recently.

[Richard Cheese]

When you run 4 show and tell in the SB, Dont you also want more fattyes i the SB ? or is the 5 targets in main enuff (4 GB 1 Emrakrul) ?

Probably so. That was actually from a list that ran 3 emrakul main, but no tendrils or children.

[kihachi]

I don't think it's so bad. 12-post runs 7 creatures and maindecks S&T. It's just another option to get a guy in play and if your opponent mulls to graveyard hate, you'll probably have some time to try and draw into whichever half of the combo you need.

You could always add three more Emrakuls but then you have the problem where you have 8 of one half of the combo and 4 of the other half, and if you don't have S&T those Emrakuls are dead cards. So then you start looking at adding Sneak Attack and you're completely transformational.

[Freggle]

You could always add three more Emrakuls but then you have the problem where you have 8 of one half of the combo and 4 of the other half, and if you don't have S&T those Emrakuls are dead cards. So then you start looking at adding Sneak Attack and you're completely transformational.

I think it's more like what .dk said. If you run 2-4 Lim-Dûl's Vault you wouldn't want (4) Show and Tell as your primary goal is still to win off of a reanimated Griselbrand. If that gets nerfed through some hate you could tutor for your Show and Tell or Griselbrand whichever you are missing.

I think the lists with the counter spells are more effective at this approach because it is slower, the lists with can ward off some early hate better making the plan A stronger. There shouldn't be a need for Plan c Sneak Attack because if plan A or B is executed it should win on the spot. This could free-up board slots for whatever else. Just my 2 cents.

[phazonmutant]

I think it's more like what .dk said. If you run 2-4 Lim-Dûl's Vault you wouldn't want (4) Show and Tell as your primary goal is still to win off of a reanimated Griselbrand. If that gets nerfed through some hate you could tutor for your Show and Tell or Griselbrand whichever you are missing.

I think the lists with the counter spells are more effective at this approach because it is slower, the lists with can ward off some early hate better making the plan A stronger. There shouldn't be a need for Plan c Sneak Attack because if plan A or B is executed it should win on the spot. This could free-up board slots for whatever else. Just my 2 cents.

Just want to raise the thought, if we're slowing down to add , isn't traditional reanimator just better? They're more consistent at getting a man into play because they run 9+ ins and they run enough creatures to make S&T legitimate. The advantage of TinFins is that it's faster and can win through soft hate like Karakas, Maze of Ith, Swords to Plowshares, sometimes Deathrite, etc, but that really just doesn't seem like a compelling tradeoff for having consistency issues and more clunkers to draw if we're about comparably fast.

Absolutely blue could be worth it, I'd just like to hear your take on why it's good.

[Dela]

Went another 4-0 at my local legacy tournament tonight (20ish people). 4 weeks straight >< I beat RiP Miracles R1 (2-0), UR Delver R2 (2-1), Omniscience R3 (2-0), Esper Stoneblade R4 (2-0)


My list was 2 careful study, 2 gitaxian probe, 1 reanimate. SB had flusterstorms, show and tells, pithing needles, bounce, pull from eternity.

The most interesting match was the finals vs Stoneblade.

G1 I'm at 6 life, he has batterskull and stoneforge in play and plenty of untapped lands and is at 28 life. I have Brainstorm, Shallow Grave, and therapy in hand and 3 untapped lands and a Grisel in the yard. I therapy him naming Force and he shows a hand of snapcaster, land, lingering souls. Since he has a flusterstorm in his yard (UGH maindeck Flusterstorm) I can't go off so I brainstorm. BS sees Ritual, Land, Griselbrand so I take ritual. He plays snapcaster end of turn to brainstorm and represent lethal. On his turn I ritual and animate Gbrand to block batterskull. He goes to 32, I go to 10. He plays lingering souls and passes, I draw 7 before he is exiled and go to 3. Fresh 7 gets me there via storm.

G2 My opener is 2 entombs, shallow grave, 4 lands. I decide to keep after thinking a long while. I draw into another entomb and we play land go for awhile. Once he is a 3 lands and I'm sitting on 4, he casts Thoughsieze. I reveal 2x petal, 3x entomb, 1x shallow grave and a land. Strangely he takes an entomb. Next he surgicals my entombs so I respond by entombing for Emrakul. He responds with snapcaster mage. It is pointed out that his surgical is still on the stack and he can't cast another surgical. Emmy does his thing and shuffles, surgical fizzles, and I end of turn entomb again and cast Shallow Grave for grisel and win from there.

@Koby My friend Art from San Diego says he knows you and mentioned you tonight and I was like oh ya! Koby! and I said I'd say Hi from us. Haha small world - keep up the good work

[Richard Cheese]

Went another 4-0 at my local legacy tournament tonight (20ish people). 4 weeks straight >< I beat RiP Miracles R1 (2-0), UR Delver R2 (2-1), Omniscience R3 (2-0), Esper Stoneblade R4 (2-0)

Nice job. I'm guessing you were running 2 Griselbrand? I'm interested to hear how that Miracles match played out.

[Freggle]

Just want to raise the thought, if we're slowing down to add , isn't traditional reanimator just better? They're more consistent at getting a man into play because they run 9+ ins and they run enough creatures to make S&T legitimate. The advantage of TinFins is that it's faster and can win through soft hate like Karakas, Maze of Ith, Swords to Plowshares, sometimes Deathrite, etc, but that really just doesn't seem like a compelling tradeoff for having consistency issues and more clunkers to draw if we're about comparably fast.

Absolutely blue could be worth it, I'd just like to hear your take on why it's good.

It really comes down an educated guess. After the printing of Force of Will in 1996 discard and combo got worse. After that combo decks had to have a way to interact with the hand or the stack. The current TinFins builds DO interact with the hand, and that is good. However, in MU's like Miracles they can just any segment of our line of play and win. Historically the most broken decks after Force of Will are combo control deck (Think Vintage gifts, or Flash Hulk). Since this deck has the ability to draw past a lot of stuff for a cheap cost it shows a good deal of potential to be a solid combo-control list.

We say that a blue list is slower, which is true, but how much slower is it really? I'm not a statistician, but I am a Magic player interested in the Statistics of decks and I have come up with this using the calculator found here: http://stattrek.com/online-calculato...geometric.aspx If this information is wrong someone PLEASE correct me.

Lets Take Koby's Las Vegas List initial 7 no mulligan:

Chances of drawing (1) or more Black Sources: 0.900777106738533

Chances of drawing (1) or more Dark Ritual : 0.399499625744666

Chances of Drawing (1) or More Entomb: 0.399499625744666

Chances of drawing (1) or more Reanimation Spell: 0.653593571031819

Multiply all of that and you get 0.093963 That is the chance you get the hand to cast Mana source -> Dark Rit -> Entomb -> "Animate" = 9.39%

Now What are the odds of Koby going discard Grizzy -> Reanimate?

Chances of drawing (1) or more Black Sources: 0.900777106738533

Chances of drawing (1) or more Dark Ritual : 0.399499625744666

Chances of drawing (1) or more Reanimation Spell: 0.653593571031819

Chances of drawing (1) or more 1 mana discard spell: 0.541436077841381

Chances of Drawing (1) or more Grizzy: 0.221468926553672

Multiply it all and you get 0.028203 There is a 2.82% chance you get that hand.

There are other T1 hands but they are statistically negligible.

Lets see what happens to those numbers when we JUST put Lim-Duls in the Groyo Slots.

Your chances of drawing a reanimation spell T1 drops to 0.474562172526582. A variance of 17.91% which seems substantial, but lets see how that affect T1 "kills"

Entomb Route now becomes 0.068225 or 6.82% therefore you are 2.57% less likely to combo T1

...and the discard route now becomes 0.020477966 or 2.05% therefore you are .77% less likely to combo T1 via the discard route.

After Turn 2 the Stats should be roughly the same since your Lim-Duls can become whatever you need it to be. I personally don't see that being too much of a trade off to become combo control, and the possiblity to add two lines of play (Reanimation or Show and Tell)

Why TinFins over Reanimator, because as you say we can ignore common Legend hate and win on the spot. That does not change with or without

[Dela]

Nice job. I'm guessing you were running 2 Griselbrand? I'm interested to hear how that Miracles match played out.

Actually I ran 3 Grisel. I am still undecided on the correct number but my list felt solid.

The RIP Miracles matchup went as smoothly as one could hope... G1 in the dark and on the play I kept a hand with the combo and a thoughtsieze. I was able to win on turn two.

G2 I kept a very disruption heavy hand. G probe, ts, cabal therapy and lands? I remember stripping his hand and comboing a few turns later when he had RIP in hand. I had the 1 bayou and reverent silence if needed as well as a few show and tell if needed. He complained after the match about the unfairness of the deck... I told him I was lucky and that RIP was my worst matchup. Shrug.

[alphastryk]

The RIP Miracles matchup went as smoothly as one could hope... G1 in the dark and on the play I kept a hand with the combo and a thoughtsieze. I was able to win on turn two.

G2 I kept a very disruption heavy hand. G probe, ts, cabal therapy and lands? I remember stripping his hand and comboing a few turns later when he had RIP in hand. I had the 1 bayou and reverent silence if needed as well as a few show and tell if needed. He complained after the match about the unfairness of the deck... I told him I was lucky and that RIP was my worst matchup. Shrug.

Yeah, sounds like maybe your opponent didn't know the matchup? I've always felt hugely favored with RIP Mriacles vs TinFins, especially if TinFins doesn't go off turn 1.

[Koby]

Yeah, sounds like maybe your opponent didn't know the matchup? I've always felt hugely favored with RIP Mriacles vs TinFins, especially if TinFins doesn't go off turn 1.

It struck me as just the variance associated with the Miracle player's opening hand. Some hand are just good - Brainstorm to hide RIP will lead to a loss for Tin Fins generally. In Vegas I went 2-1 and 0-2 against Miracles. The RIP version is obviously much better than traditional Miracles.

[kihachi]

It struck me as just the variance associated with the Miracle player's opening hand. Some hand are just good - Brainstorm to hide RIP will lead to a loss for Tin Fins generally. In Vegas I went 2-1 and 0-2 against Miracles. The RIP version is obviously much better than traditional Miracles.

I really want to go "Thought Scour you" after that play. I think I've seen it discussed before but I'm not sure that's actually a playable card. It would have to come in over Probes or Preordains if you're playing those, but you also would want to have 4 Griselbrand to maximize value. But it also has value in some corner cases, like the one where they hide cards from you with Brainstorm (if you have another mana open).

[Bobmans]

I really want to go "Thought Scour you" after that play. I think I've seen it discussed before but I'm not sure that's actually a playable card. It would have to come in over Probes or Preordains if you're playing those, but you also would want to have 4 Griselbrand to maximize value. But it also has value in some corner cases, like the one where they hide cards from you with Brainstorm (if you have another mana open).

I would choose careful study over thought scour and even preordain. This cus you get to choose what to throw away and keep what is usefull. Prordain digs deeper, but study actually can give you an in.

[Azdraël]

In my most recent tests I tend to prefer Hapless Researcher better than Careful Study, for his ability to do almost the same thing but at the moment you want. That makes a big difference when it comes to game 2/3 so as to fight the grave hate your opponent boards in. Not to mention Cabal flashback. In a nutshell, it is more pro-active than reacting if it makes sense.
So I'd rather go Ordain/ponder = Hapless > Careful > Thought Scour

[.dk]

In my most recent tests I tend to prefer Hapless Researcher better than Careful Study, for his ability to do almost the same thing but at the moment you want. That makes a big difference when it comes to game 2/3 so as to fight the grave hate your opponent boards in. Not to mention Cabal flashback. In a nutshell, it is more pro-active than reacting if it makes sense.
So I'd rather go Ordain/ponder = Hapless > Careful > Thought Scour

I suppose hapless researcher also dodges spell pierce, although I'm not sure anyone actually spell pierces careful study. I've never tested him in Tin Fins but he seems fine in a build running the full grip of Giselbrands. Can also reanimate him to use as a discard outlet if you need to do that too. Also like (as you said) his interaction with Cabal Therapy.

[phazonmutant]

Freggle - that's a really good answer! Makes me want to look at the raw numbers some more to see if it can guide deckbuilding.

I've played Hapless in a couple of builds and it's always been very solid. It's also useful to put an instant-speed discard in the bank so you can do tricksy things with Emrakul and reanimate effects. The Goblin Lackey staredown is always fun too.

[Baum]

Just another report, testing Lim-Dul's Vault:

The List:

4 Polluted Delta
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
1 Swamp
2 Gemstone Mine

4 Dark Ritual
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox

3 Griselbrand
1 Children of Korlis
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Tendrils of Agony

4 Entomb
4 Shallow Grave
3 Goryo's Vengeance
1 Reanimate
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
2 Gitaxian Probe
2 Lim-Dûl's Vault

Sideboard

1 Pithing Needle
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Silence
2 Massacre
2 Pull from Eternity
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Reverent Silence
2 Surgical Extraction



Match 1 – Dredge
G1: 1st turn kill on the play.
G2: I was missing one mana source for the first turn combo. He took away my only Entomb with Cabal Therapy. Luckily, I still had Thoughtseize + Griselbrand and Goryo’s Vengeance. He passed the turn and I drew a Chrome Mox…
2:0

Match 2 – Zoo
G1: Save 2nd turn kill.
G2: A Thalia bought him enough time to kill me. I had a Lim-Dul’s Vault in Hand, but couldn’t find the 3rd Land to cast it and dig for a Chain of Vapor.
G3: That one was close. I fizzled in my combo turn and passed on 7 life, facing Gaddock Teeg and Kird Ape. He put me to 3 but didn’t topdeck a burn spell. Next turn, I smashed him with Emrakul. Lim-Dul’s Vault really shined in that game.
2:1

Match 3 – Death & Taxes with Green
G1: 1st turn kill on the play.
G2: He passed with white mana up. I therapied him for Swords to Plowshares, hitting two and killed him on my 1st turn.
2:0

Match 4 – Undercity Informer / Balustrade Spy / no Land Combo
Since we were sitting next to each other during the last round, we knew it would be a short match. ;)
The bad thing was that I lost the die roll…
G1: He took a mulligan to 6 but did not have the turn 1 kill. I kept a hand with Bayou, Therapy, Entomb and Goryo’s but no other mana sources. I got a bit lucky when I hit his only Balustrade Spy with my Therapy. If he had an Informer, I would have been dead on his 2nd turn. This way, he was looking for one of his guys while I was looking a mana source. I found it first.
G2: He opened with Leyline of Sanctity and Pithing Needle on Griselbrand. I knew he was packing Leylines but chose to ignore it and didn’t side in my Chains. I have to admit that the Needle was surprising. I had a Silence in my starting 7 (which is an instant win in response to him milling his library). I also had Reanimate + Entomb. He died to a “vanilla” 7/7 flyer a couple of turns later.
2:0


I have to admit that I got a little bit lucky with the matchups (no blue tempo decks or CounterTop). Anyway, I won the tournament and got a Badlands. :)

I’m pretty content with the current build. Lim-Dul’s Vault is awesome as a 2-off, especially if you have a mana artifact on your 1st turn and are able to cast the Vault on your opponent’s first end step. It almost felt like a small Doomsday in finding missing combo pieces and stacking the other 4 cards.
Three Griselbrands also seem fine. Of course, that’s just one small tournament, but I had a Grisel when I had to go the discard route but never got flooded with the guy.
I hope to play against the more difficult matchups the next time to get more valid data.


@ Richard Cheese and the other contributors to the primer:
I’d like to translate the primer for the German MtG Forum where I’m also posting. You probably won’t mind but I think I have to ask. ;)