Results 1 to 11 of 11

Thread: [Free Article] An Unpredictable Legacy

  1. #1
    ?
    Di's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2003
    Location

    Syracuse, NY
    Posts

    5,766

    [Free Article] An Unpredictable Legacy

    linky

    I cover the openness of the current format, shit on the validity of the Legacy tier structure, and admit that I don't have a clue on what the metagame is.


    Enjoy!

  2. #2
    We are lost. We can never go home.
    Einherjer's Avatar
    Join Date

    May 2011
    Location

    Noricum
    Posts

    1,475

    Re: [Free Article] An Unpredictable Legacy

    Wow, that was a great article. Very very nice read.

    I've experienced pretty much the same at GP Ghent. I played UWr Terminator, which was geared to beat Maverick and put up a good fight vs Canadian. I played Canadian once and never faced a single Maverick. Great format if you ask me :) I played against Cephalid Breakfast, Aggro Loam and Imperial Painter too.... what a diverse format - love it :)

    Greetings
    My articles here, here, here and here | My current list | Follow me on Twitter | Questions I answered.

  3. #3

    Re: [Free Article] An Unpredictable Legacy

    Excellent article, I also totally agree with your conclusions.

    A few nitpicks:

    - Cavern of Souls is the reason behind the re-rise of Goblins (that and people finally realizing the deck was never as bad as the (anti-)hype made it out to be), but largely irrelevant to Merfolk&Elves. Elves is just very well positioned in a metagame of aggro-control (which it can swarm) and random other decks (which it can combo) and Merfolk really just needed another LoA to come back out to play. All three decks also profit significantly from the fact that people have reduced creature defenses to keep Grisel-decks in check.

    - I would argue the metagame after the Survival ban before Misstep and Batterskull changed everything was just as diverse and unpredictable as the current one (and that suggests your conclusion that it's time for combo to rise again is a good one, given High Tide just started taking off when New Phyrexia interrupted the everything->combo->disruption->everything cycle).

    - just to avoid more the typical whining, it would probably have been a good idea to make it even more obvious than you already did, that the next step after "disruptive blue decks and hate put combo in check" is "back to everything is viable".

    But all these are minor points, excellent work!
    I don't have low self-esteem, I have low esteem for everyone else. -Daria

    Proud member of Team CAB
    High Priest of the Church of BLA

    CAB JaceTM

    My articles

  4. #4
    ?
    Di's Avatar
    Join Date

    Oct 2003
    Location

    Syracuse, NY
    Posts

    5,766

    Re: [Free Article] An Unpredictable Legacy

    Thanks for the feedback!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mon,Goblin Chief View Post
    Excellent article, I also totally agree with your conclusions.

    A few nitpicks:

    - Cavern of Souls is the reason behind the re-rise of Goblins (that and people finally realizing the deck was never as bad as the (anti-)hype made it out to be), but largely irrelevant to Merfolk&Elves. Elves is just very well positioned in a metagame of aggro-control (which it can swarm) and random other decks (which it can combo) and Merfolk really just needed another LoA to come back out to play. All three decks also profit significantly from the fact that people have reduced creature defenses to keep Grisel-decks in check.

    - I would argue the metagame after the Survival ban before Misstep and Batterskull changed everything was just as diverse and unpredictable as the current one (and that suggests your conclusion that it's time for combo to rise again is a good one, given High Tide just started taking off when New Phyrexia interrupted the everything->combo->disruption->everything cycle).

    - just to avoid more the typical whining, it would probably have been a good idea to make it even more obvious than you already did, that the next step after "disruptive blue decks and hate put combo in check" is "back to everything is viable".

    But all these are minor points, excellent work!
    Point #1 - fair enough argument. However, despite the actual lack of Cavern in a deck like Elves (which those top8 lists omitted), I think the presence of Cavern itself was huge in boosting those decks' playability in general. Merfolk got a larger boost from the new lord, but I think both additions are what put it over the top. However none of this was really spelled out in the article; I suppose that section could've been expanded a bit, but meh.

    Point #2 - I considered mentioning this, but actually believe the current metagame is even more diverse than the post-Sotf, pre-NPH Legacy. Although that metagame was diverse and healthy, it paled in comparison to the overall number of viable control, tribal, and combo decks that we're seeing currently, not to mention Maverick or anything resembling it wasn't a legitimate thing back then either.

    Point #3 - I actually originally did this, but thought I was getting ahead of myself so I cut it. Reason being because I can't say with certainty that we'd return to a state resembling what we're currently in after "blue phase." It's likely, but that's a ways down the road and didn't think it necessary to try predicting the format for the next year lol.

  5. #5

    Re: [Free Article] An Unpredictable Legacy

    For a non-Carsten Legacy article (Everyday I'm barning) this sure is a hell of a breath of fresh air. It's nice to see that someone else is not shoving "play Blue it's best color derp" down our throats disregarding any context. It's interesting to see how diverse the format has become these last 2 weeks.

    I agree with what Carsten said regarding the current Tribal Renaissance but I'll expand on it a bit. A new LOA solves the problem of not being good enough against Blue decks for Merfolk to really be a contender as well as it's lack of card advantage. It seems weird but it does do both. All you really want is to jam Islandwalkers against Islands all day and now you aren't super vulnerable to getting blown out by spot removal too. A significant upgrade.

    Goblins, of course, got Cavern of Souls but strangely you glossed over Krenko, Mob Boss. In case you don't know, this guy is the real deal. He does everything the deck wants to do and does it very well. Their is no better way to beat up on a sea of fair decks than Krenko. Untap. Win.

    Elves got some very clever deck builders behind it and got some very cool new tools. Humility in the SB? Karakas to fetch with Crop Rotation? Ahh yeah! This lets you have game against GB decks and just crap out infi green dorks onto the board is good enough against quite a few decks, apparently.

    Great article!
    "We are goblinkind, heirs to the mountain empires of chieftains past. Rest is death to us, and arson is our call to war."

  6. #6

    Re: [Free Article] An Unpredictable Legacy

    Great article.

    I'm quite excited for this combo friendly field we have for the moment.
    Hill Giant means business.

  7. #7
    Vintage

    Join Date

    Apr 2005
    Location

    West Coast Degeneracy
    Posts

    5,135

    Re: [Free Article] An Unpredictable Legacy

    I think this explains Dredge's performance at SCG Vegas very well too. Everyone was gunning for Reanimator, Elves, and RUG, so in the meantime Combo with Belcher and Dredge were able to chalk up wins easily as people ignored those decks.
    West side
    Find me on MTGO as Koby or rukcus -- @MTGKoby on Twitter
    * Maverick is dead. Long live Maverick!
    My Legacy stream
    My MTG Blog - Work in progress

  8. #8
    Member
    DarkAkuma's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2005
    Location

    Las Vegas, NV
    Posts

    98

    Re: [Free Article] An Unpredictable Legacy

    I like the article. Probably because I'm building some experience writing articles myself, and yours is fairly similar to one I wrote last week before SCG Vegas. As such, I agree with a lot of your observations, and predictions.

    The only different things worth mentioning are that I don't feel decks like Thresh/RUG Delver and Maverick are top decks based on strength alone. And I could apply that to Esper-Stoneblade and Reanimator as well. They're very fine decks and everything and I won't claim they're worse then the tier 2 decks, but I feel their frequent top placing is based more on popularity than superiority.

    They're popular for several reasons.

    1, forums like this tell people they're the best, so people wanting the best chance of doing well at a tourney grab a deck that is one of the best.

    2, card availability/price. These decks either use a LOT of cards from more recent sets making them more easily built by players coming over from Standard/Extended, or use sizable amount of non-rares (in the case of Reanimator).

    3, these decks feature the hot cards/mechanics of the moment. Delver, Grisel, Miracles, etc. These aren't as cemented into Legacy like other cards and mechanics. Whether a player just wants to keep things spicy to keep themselves from getting bored, throw opponents off some by essentially playing more "random" cards, or both. People like to play the cards/mechanics that are hot atm.

    Any one of these on their own wouldn't make these a tier 1 deck, but together they do.

    I would even sum it up as DTB decks, or tier 1 are currently the most popular decks. Not the best decks. In my opinion, there is no clear best deck. And I find that awesome for the format.

  9. #9
    Member

    Join Date

    Aug 2011
    Location

    Italy
    Posts

    780

    Re: [Free Article] An Unpredictable Legacy

    DarkAkuma, I don't quite agree with your second point. If you take into account the cards in RUG or EsperBlade you can see that the majority of money cards (dual lands, fetches, FoW, Wasteland, Jace, Tarmogoyf, Thoughtseize, Ooze) are not really new cards and they are not really easy to acquire. Both of the decks are in a range of $1500-$2000.

    Having said that, I'd rather build one of those "Tier 1" decks as opposed to a deck like powered Spiral Tide, or Lands or Imperial Painter from scratch because the deck would cost me almost the same but in return I'd have cards I could use in multiple decks. Whereas when you invest into the so called "Tier 2" and "niche" decks a good deal of the cards you are getting is very limited in their use. Which means when your particular deck loses ground in the meta you'll struggle switching to something new. This cross-deck switch is much easier with tiered blue decks. I think this is a major factor for the popularity of these decks.

    Another factor is that these decks are not the best decks as you've said but they are quite versatile and adaptable. Which means even when there are major shifts in the meta you can adapt the deck accordingly without losing viability very easily by keeping the core of your deck. Also these 3 color blue tiered decks have great sideboard options so it's very easy to tune the deck according to a specific meta (with very little commitment to cards money-wise) and still do fairly well.

    A little example.. When Mental Misstep got printed Canadian Threshold as we know it kind of disappeared but there was the Next Level Threshold using the same manabase, FoWs, Tarmogoyfs with a Natural Order package added and the deck was functioning again. If you invest into, say BW Tokens deck, and meta experiences such a significant change to make your deck unviable what are you going to do with your Scrublands then?

    Since Legacy is kind of THE eternal format and major archetypes are supposed to be non-rotating (yeah, there's no such rule but what I mean is unlike Standard), making the initial investment into these versatile choices and then being able to stick with them for years appeal to a lot of players and I'd say this is the most significant factor in the popularity of the tiered blue decks.

    Edit: I was recently considering getting my girlfriend's brother a cheapish legacy deck since he has shown interest in Magic and had a thread here asking for opinions. I was initially considering Elves since it's very viable, has a casual allure, intricate strong deck. But then started leaning on UR delver because when he decides to move on he'll be stuck with his bunch of crappy Elves and couple of $70 Cradles whereas with UR delver he'll have FoWs and Volcanics at least so he'll be able to move into other viable decks easier. I don't mean to derail the thread with a discussion of "how good blue is" but adaptability issue is a major dynamic behind the meta changes imo. Some people are stuck into their archetypes and so when a particular deck which is bad against their pet/life friend deck becomes dominant in the meta, it shines and brings a new balance to the meta. When majority adapts to this new deck they get left behind and the balances change. I view the meta kind of like a round tray seated atop a narrow pivot and the decks are like marbles. Tier 1 decks are like the ones close to the center so they need to move a minimum amount when balances change but the ones in the outer circles (Tier 2 and niche decks) either fall off or roll towards the outer edges to be replaced by other marbles. Obviously this ties into consistency of decks and colors and non-linear strategies topics but probably this is already enough for one post.

  10. #10
    Member
    DarkAkuma's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2005
    Location

    Las Vegas, NV
    Posts

    98

    Re: [Free Article] An Unpredictable Legacy

    I admit, my view regarding availability/price is subjective. What constitutes available to some may not as much to others. I thought I included exceptions about things like Duals and FoW, but I guess I edited it out before Submitting. Cards like the ones you listed are very much staples of the format. Some even staples of Modern, a format I didn't mention but supply's crossover players just the same as Standard and Extended. These cards at the least are more available due to them being staples, and being either the start of a new Legacy players collection or generally being more available to be borrowed.

    Of course I can't defend this point regarding every deck. Like Elves it wouldn't apply to very well as you suggest. That is a fairly cheap deck. But as per my other points, it's not listed as a DTB, and doesn't really feature any hot cards/mechanics.

    An additional point I forgot to mention is Agro-Control and Control, which I'd classify the current tier 1 decks as. Such decks tend to be more popular cause they have more options against a wider range of decks, as you suggest. A lot of the tier 2 decks are more pure Combo or Agro oriented, with less control. So I guess we can look at the current state of the format as a resurgence of Agro and Combo. I like that! Different people define the "fun" decks differently, but for me Agro and Combo are the fun decks in MTG.

    As Dj's article somewhat mentioned, Cavern of Souls is probably mostly responsible. This card makes Agro more viable against control elements. And with more Agro in the field, Combo will naturally make a resurgence as its game against Agro has historically been good as illustrated by the standard, though imperfect MTG paper>rock>scissors> model, Combo>Agro>Control>. Funny how such a single card could theoretically cause such a massive shift in the formats metagame! =)

  11. #11
    Member

    Join Date

    Nov 2007
    Location

    Finland
    Posts

    798

    Re: [Free Article] An Unpredictable Legacy

    The article made a good point regarding the impatient ban-criers. I'm starting to think that it's the kids who are always wanting to ban stuff. Maybe they lack the patience, experience and wit to take a bit closer and more analytical look at the format at given time. Those people seem to be unable to put stuff in context.

    It's also easy to agree that the format is wide open and you can basically steal a tournament win with almost any deck that has a proper plan and pilot. In such situation it's kind of embarrassing to still have to read that people are comparing Griselbrand to Yawgmoth's Will and P9 while against reality trying to argue that Griselbrabd somehow warps the format. Even when also the article quite clearly showed that Griselbrand has been out of top 8's of large tournaments for quite some time already.
    Some of my friends sell records,
    some of my friends sell drugs.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)