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Thread: Can you build anything competitive out of non-power + Time Vault?

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    Can you build anything competitive out of non-power + Time Vault?

    I have a Vault and all the non-workshop, non-bazaar, non-power, non-drain cards. Can something come out of it or am I forced to play Null Rod for eternity if I want to compete against power?

    I don't pay too much attention to the format nowadays due to lack of events, but I'd like to build a deck to bring with me whenever something pops up.
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    Re: Can you build anything competitive out of non-power + Time Vault?

    I think fish decks also tend to play the 1W Null Rod enchantment now, but yeah if you're not playing Power and you're not playing Bazaar, I think you're stuck with some sort of Null Rod deck.

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    Re: Can you build anything competitive out of non-power + Time Vault?

    While a non-powered deck may struggle in a competitive meta game it is not impossible to create a viable list.

    My initial inclination is to go with some sort of mono-black hate deck with confidants. Since you're running a single color you don't really need the moxes to mana fix, and black as a color give you access to some other mana acceleration in the form of dark ritual and access to some of the better tutors (demonic, vampiric, etc...) Since you're not running blue you're going to need to rely on discard for your disruption, so cards like thoughtsieze, duress, and hymn to tourach should be considered. Then add in some other useful cards like surgical extraction, extirpate etc....

    Don't get me wrong there are probably many more un-powered decks out there that you could play this is just a quick 5 minute brainstorm on my part. Ultimately your choices are really going to be dependent on what decks are in your meta-game.

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    Re: Can you build anything competitive out of non-power + Time Vault?

    Check out this article, about half way through the writer touches on G/W/b beats which can be tweaked to be very competitive in any meta (some of the cards choices are outdated but the changes are pretty obvious i.e. Null Rod -> Stony Silence). The same writer wrote a few articles on G/W so take a look through the SCG archives. If you feel inclined to do some additional research check out "White Trash" lists, it's essentially White Weenie and actually quite good.
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    Re: Can you build anything competitive out of non-power + Time Vault?

    Chalice @ 0 on the play when you're not playing power is also pretty hilarious.

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    Re: Can you build anything competitive out of non-power + Time Vault?

    I'm thinking of a Thalia-based Stony Silence deck. White hate bears in a format with minimal creature hate? Not so bad, just don't let that Oath of Druids touch the field.
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    Re: Can you build anything competitive out of non-power + Time Vault?

    Sadistic Sacrament is pretty hilarious against a lot of Vintage decks.

    "Exile your Time Vault, Blightsteel Colossus, and a Jace."

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    Re: Can you build anything competitive out of non-power + Time Vault?

    I adopted fairie stompy to play vintage at BoM and went reasonable 5-4. I think I would have a better result if it was not my very first vintage experience. 8 times playing against power decks and 1 time against dredge.
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    Re: Can you build anything competitive out of non-power + Time Vault?

    Yeah, in Vintage you need like 8 board cards against graveyards just for Dredge.

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    Re: Can you build anything competitive out of non-power + Time Vault?

    I feel like you should be able to....probably using some sort of Tezzeret shell. The problem is that that shell gets much better as you add power and Drains. I'd probably look into like a Chalice Tezzeret as a brewing option....probably would look something like Legacy Thopters, but substantially more broken and with big Tezz instead of little Tezz. You still have access to Ring, Vault, Crypt, and some other more questionable fast mana....I think it's definitely possible. But you're going to be leaning on Chalice of the Void an awful lot.

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    Re: Can you build anything competitive out of non-power + Time Vault?

    If you want to do well without power cards your best bet is to run an aggro shell that is designed to exploit common development and control strategies used in powered lists while simultaneously being able to stand toe to toe with other aggro decks. This especially holds true in Europe where there is a large disparity between the number of powered and unpowered lists at any given event.

    Basing a list around Time Vault, lacking the support cards used in a traditional control shell is going to run horribly.

    These are the cards I would be looking at instead of trying to ram Chalice of the Void into a Tezzeret list. I'd also like to point out that Tezzeret the Seeker is no longer played in large quantities because he bites it to pretty much everything.

    Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    Aven Mindcensor
    Relic Warder
    Stony Silence
    Qasali Pridemage
    Scavenging Ooze
    Dark Confidant
    Swords to Plowshares
    Grafdigger's Cage
    Wasteland
    Strip Mine
    Cavern of Souls
    etc...

    Quote Originally Posted by Esper3k View Post
    Yeah, in Vintage you need like 8 board cards against graveyards just for Dredge.
    Also this is a misconception.

    While the key to beating Dredge is being prepared and having an adequate sideboard, I'd argue the most important thing to take to heart regarding the match is to be constantly aware of what flavor of the month anti hate Dredge players are on. Their sideboard is entirely based upon what the meta runs for hate. If people are on Leyline of the Void and Grafdigger's Cage run Yixlid Jailers, stay one step ahead and you will do well. One does not need a large quantity of cards for the Dredge match, just the correct ones.

    An important note about deck building - many times you can gain some ground against Dredge game one and save some sideboard space by moving cards that are relevant across matches into the main deck, i.e. Nihil Spellbomb. Spellbomb cycles and is no slouch against control and combo lists.

    FWIW I've been running a package of Ravenous Trap, Yixlid Jailer (3), Nihil Spellbomb, and Grafdigger's Cage. That is six cards three of which are relevant against other archetypes.
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    Re: Can you build anything competitive out of non-power + Time Vault?

    I agree that it probably won't be that great, E_F -- however, if he wants to try to use his Time Vault, then I think that some sort of Chalice-Tezz is the best possibility. Not the best possibility for an unpowered deck, at all.

    Also for Dredge, try to make sure you have a hand that does something. If your hand either can't unload some dredge hate or go broken, ship it.

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    Re: Can you build anything competitive out of non-power + Time Vault?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ertai's Familiar View Post
    While the key to beating Dredge is being prepared and having an adequate sideboard, I'd argue the most important thing to take to heart regarding the match is to be constantly aware of what flavor of the month anti hate Dredge players are on. Their sideboard is entirely based upon what the meta runs for hate. If people are on Leyline of the Void and Grafdigger's Cage run Yixlid Jailers, stay one step ahead and you will do well. One does not need a large quantity of cards for the Dredge match, just the correct ones.

    An important note about deck building - many times you can gain some ground against Dredge game one and save some sideboard space by moving cards that are relevant across matches into the main deck, i.e. Nihil Spellbomb. Spellbomb cycles and is no slouch against control and combo lists.

    FWIW I've been running a package of Ravenous Trap, Yixlid Jailer (3), Nihil Spellbomb, and Grafdigger's Cage. That is six cards three of which are relevant against other archetypes.
    This is all true. I usually run a Nihil Spellbomb + Surgical Extraction (alongside Snapcasters) main, which gives you a chance game 1. The varied hate plan is also usually the best (and I say this as an occasional Dredge pilot) because you keep them guessing and their answers to your hate may be the wrong ones. I would only add that another critical aspect of beating Dredge is to understand how the deck functions. Playing a bunch of graveyard hate as a substitute for knowing the interactions and nuances of the deck doesn't work well. I know a lot of people hate Dredge, but I highly recommend goldfishing/playtesting as the Dredge pilot even if you never intend to actually play with the deck in a tournament.

    Back to the thread topic: Another option alluded to earlier (Sadistic Sacrament) is Dark Times, which only runs Lotus, Jet, and Imperial Seal and can still be explosive without power (Dark Ritual!). It is basically a Vampire Hexmage/Dark Depths deck with tons of disruption. The older versions also ran Helm-line, but that seems to have fallen out of favor (but works well if you're gunning to beat Dredge since maindeck Leyline of Void can steal plenty of game 1s).

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    Re: Can you build anything competitive out of non-power + Time Vault?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arianrhod View Post
    I agree that it probably won't be that great, E_F -- however, if he wants to try to use his Time Vault, then I think that some sort of Chalice-Tezz is the best possibility. Not the best possibility for an unpowered deck, at all.

    Also for Dredge, try to make sure you have a hand that does something. If your hand either can't unload some dredge hate or go broken, ship it.
    Fair enough, I was thinking along the lines of competitive events. If it's for casual purposes Agent of Bolas works pretty well with Chalice of the Void and TimeKey.
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    Re: Can you build anything competitive out of non-power + Time Vault?

    I was looking at getting into something like this:

    4 Tombstalker

    4 Pox
    4 Smallpox
    4 Sinkhole

    4 Hymn to Tourach
    4 Duress
    1 Thoughtseize
    1 Mind Twist

    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Demonic Consultation
    4 Dark Ritual
    1 Diabolic Edict
    3 Crucible of Worlds

    4 Mishra's Factory
    1 Strip Mine
    4 Wasteland
    10 Swamp
    4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth

    I found it here: Norwegian Vintage Nationals 2009

    It notes that the field was all un-powered, so i'm not sure how that impacts whether or not this list would work in a field with power at all.

    Also since i never got to play with it, and it looks like awesome fun (or a terrible idea), i'd want to include a Necropotence

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    Re: Can you build anything competitive out of non-power + Time Vault?

    I´ve been running this for a while and been quite happy with the results:

    4 Savannah
    4 Horizon Canoppy
    4 Ravorverge Ticket
    4 Wasteland
    4 Ghost Quarter
    1 Stripmine

    4 Swords to Plowshares

    3 Stony Silence
    3 Grafdigger´s Cage
    1 lotus petal

    4 Noble Hierarch
    3 Leonin Arbiter
    3 Aven Mindcensor
    3 Gaddock Teeg
    3 Qasali Pridemage
    3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    3 Kataki, War's wage
    2 Leonin-Relic Warden

    Sideboard
    1 Kataki, War's wage
    1 Stony Silence
    1 Grafdigger´s Cage
    2 tormod´s crypt
    3 Path to Exile
    3 Relic of Progenitus
    4 Nature's Claim

    My little experience is like 8-10 games vs intuitive tendrils and 2 games vs MUD, and I have only lost 2 games, all of them pre-board (I always carry the deck with me in the case there is someone with a vintage deck bacause we almot always play legacy)

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    Re: Can you build anything competitive out of non-power + Time Vault?

    I am a big fan of Null Rod Oath, usually with Emrakul and BSC. I played unpowered Double Dragon Oath at the Vintage side event of GP Madrid (170+ players) and did reasonably well. You have a great matchup against the other Null Rod/Stony Silence decks, as they are trying to slow your artifacts down, and you can pack more lands against MUD, since you have to make the Moxen up with land. I would play it again if I needed to!
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    Re: Can you build anything competitive out of non-power + Time Vault?

    Quote Originally Posted by yankeedave View Post
    I am a big fan of Null Rod Oath, usually with Emrakul and BSC. I played unpowered Double Dragon Oath at the Vintage side event of GP Madrid (170+ players) and did reasonably well. You have a great matchup against the other Null Rod/Stony Silence decks, as they are trying to slow your artifacts down, and you can pack more lands against MUD, since you have to make the Moxen up with land. I would play it again if I needed to!
    Care to share your list plz?

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    Re: Can you build anything competitive out of non-power + Time Vault?

    Quote Originally Posted by manugl84 View Post
    Care to share your list plz?
    Actually, thinking about the OP, I would run Chalice of the Void instead of Null Rod, if you want to play Vault/Key, with a mana denial package. Maybe something like this, which I would consider semi-budget, as it contains things like Mana Crypt and Jace (warning, this is of the top of my head and untested in the current meta):

    4 Oath of Druids
    1 Blightsteel Collosus
    2 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
    1 Voltaic Key
    1 Time Vault
    2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    1 Dragon's Breath
    2 Show and Tell

    1 Hurkyl's Recall
    1 Brainstorm
    1 Demonic Tutor
    1 Vampiric Tutor
    1 Yawgmoth's Will
    1 Beast Within
    1 Noxious Revival

    4 Force of Will
    2 Mental Misstep
    2 Flusterstorm
    2 Spell Pierce
    4 Chalice Of The Void
    1 Channel

    1 Sol Ring
    1 Mana Crypt
    4 Forbidden Orchard
    4 Wasteland
    1 Stripmine
    13 Other Correctly Coloured Lands

    I haven't included Tinker, as this list doesn't run enough Artifacts to support it. Since this list is hurt by Chalice at 2, I have included the Show and Tells to help circumvent this. I am also unsure of the Yawg's Win, as it again lacks the ability to abuse it with Time Walk, Moxen etc. Possibly this should be another hate spell, possibly a Nature's Claim.
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    Re: Can you build anything competitive out of non-power + Time Vault?

    I think you could actually play with Rods and Vault as long as there's a Tinker in the deck as well. I wouldn't mind switching the Rod for a combo piece in later game. Of course there's the issue with what to do with your three other Rods then. It's a shame the format supports only a single Brainstorm.
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