Im primarily a legacy player, and have invested a fair share of money into the format. I've always been interested in Vintage, but don't have the ability to immediately drop $4000-$5000 on power in one go, and have a hard time justifying paying for beat up cards just to speed up my access to the format.
My question to the Source Vintage community is this; are there realistic, competitive decks that are good with Power, but put up a fair fight without it? In essence, are there decks that can be gradually built into (add a Mox here and there, sort of a deal) or is Vintage a format that requires a player to completely buy into a deck?
I suppose in addition, I also am curious as to the priority of each indicidual piece of power. I'm assuming Ancestral Recall is on the top of the list, followed quickly by Black Lotus and Time Walk, and then the Moxen.
Buying a playset of Mana Drains or a Library is easy for my budget level, but $500+ for each piece of power is more difficult.
Interested in the communities thoughts.
Most of the mono-colored or two-colored aggro strategies that involve Grafdigger's Cage and Null Rod/Stony Silence typically run with only on-color Mox(en) and a Lotus. So they are, pretty much, barely Powered. And when only 2/60 or 3/60 of your cards are Power, you can possibly cut them and still function.
Mostly, playing unPowered in Vintage involves forcing your Powered opponents to play the game "fairly." This means using artifacts and (typically) creatures that shut off some of the major Vintage plans.
Cards like Grafdigger's Cage, Null Rod/Stony Silence, Phyrexian Revoker, Grand Arbiter, Leonin Arbiter, Aven Mindcensor, Magus of the Moon, True Believer, and others. All of them shut off major parts of your opponent's game plan.
Don't Hate the Herd
So lets say, with this deck as an example: Raśl Alonso's Stoneblade from BoM 12
---------
Creatures [9]
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage
4 Stoneforge Mystic
Instants [20]
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Fact or Fiction
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Swords to Plowshares
1 Thirst for Knowledge
3 Mental Misstep
3 Spell Snare
4 Force of Will
4 Mana Drain
Sorceries [1]
1 Time Walk
Planeswalkers [3]
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Artifacts [10]
1 Black Lotus
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Sol Ring
2 Batterskull
Lands [17]
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Plains
1 Tolarian Academy
2 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
4 Tundra
--------
If I cut:
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
To cut $1400-1600 out of $5000-5500 it would cost to power the deck (and Drains), and up my... basics?... would the deck still function in a decent manner? Or should I just wait... which isn't as attractive lol
I would say it wouldn't work without the Power. You're cutting 13 cards of the 60 by dropping the Power, Library, and Drains. Most of that is acceleration that Control decks desperately need in Vintage.
You could probably cut the three off-color Moxen and the Lotus to make your $1600 savings. Performance of the deck would be negatively impacted, but it wouldn't completely castrate the deck.
Don't Hate the Herd
No no, that's what I meant. If I cut the 3 off color Moxen, would that deck function nearly as well as if I didn't. So if I bought: Black Lotus, Mox Sapphire, Mox Pearl, Time Walk, Ancestral Recall, 4x Mana Drain, and didn't buy the Mox Ruby, Mox Jet, and Mox Emerald.
It would function "acceptably." It will, obviously, lose some acceleration - which will hurt it to a degree. But if you are not playing in a heavily Powered area and can take time to acquire the last three Moxen...it should be fine.
Don't Hate the Herd
If you really want to play competitive and get profit from these Legacy cards you have you should try Landstill.
Chris Pikula won the last big tournament in the US prior to GenCon with a low powered version:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=44416.0
Saphire
Ruby
Lotus
Ancestral
Walk
Library
You can check this thread with some of the top Landstill players from the US:
http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=43394.0
However, if you sell your non regular Legacy cards and keep 3-4 decks, you can buy into Vintage without much further investment.
Unlimited Power is pretty low on prizes compared to some years ago.
Once you have the restricted cards, the blue duals and some staples, investing 50 to get into a new archetype is not difficult.
A BIG PLUS is that you don“t have to invest that much on new cards when new sets are released (unless you are into PIMP :D)
Here's a post I made on the other thread.Originally Posted by .Ix
4 Chrome Mox
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mana Crypt
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Demonic Tutor
4 Duress
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Brainstorm
2 Compulsive Research
4 Force of Will
3 Misdirection
1 Mystical Tutor
4 Spell Snare
1 Tezzeret the Seeker
1 Thirst for Knowledge
1 Tinker
1 Crop Rotation
1 Gaea's Blessing
1 Magister Sphinx
4 Oath of Druids
1 Progenitus
1 Balance
1 Enlightened Tutor
Lands (17):
4 City of Brass
4 Forbidden Orchard
4 Gemstone Mine
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
You could run Dredge. If you can find a way to pick up four Bazaars, that is really all you would need as far as "powered" cards go.
I've considered the Dredge route, as I already have Legacy LED Dredge together.
It's not that I don't respect dredge, it's that the whole appeal to the format is getting to play with the infamous Power 9. It opens up a whole new game, atleast from an outsider's perspective.
Yes and I think the focus of the discussion in this thread shouldn't be the budget decks available but the strategies to acquire power and keeping an involvement in Vintage meanwhile. If I want to play Dredge I can play it in Legacy, the whole point of playing Vintage (for me, as a new comer) is to play all the broken shit you can't play anywhere else.
As an example, if a new player would aske me how to get into Legacy I would say build this and that budget deck, meanwhile start buying/trading into x,y,z cards to upgrade your deck into this and that. Since trading for the said cards could be hard, use this and that website to chase bargains etc.
The most obvious way is ofcourse just to go out there, assume that you are buying a very high end PC or something like that and shell out for the P9 all in one go. But with a constant cash flow distributed over a period of time where would you chase for the power? What would be the trusted online sources, which unpowered decks (Landstill, Oath) could wet one's appetite while also serving as an introduction to the format? I think these are the questions OP and the rest of Vintage newbies would be most curious of.
We're getting Vintage up and running in Brisbane, and we are running unlimited proxy tournaments. I'm getting ready for a Vintage tournament down south, so I took a totally unpowered deck with only 4 proxy JtMS, while the entire rest of the field was fully proxy-powered.
I went 3-0, only dropping 1 game. I beat Non-Gush Storm, MUD and Gush Storm.
When I was looking for a non-powered deck to play, the best two options I have found are UR Landstill and Vial Wizards. I took Vial Wizards to Top 8 at last year's Australian Vintage Nationals, it's pretty fun. I'm taking Landstill this year, and it was good enough unpowered to go 3-0 at a fully powered tournament (albeit proxy).
My Landstill list is:
3 Island
1 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Academy Ruins
4 Force of Will
4 Misdirection
4 Counterspell
2 Mental Misstep
2 Mindbreak Trap
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Engineered Explosives
2 Crucible of Worlds
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Standstill
2 Fire/Ice
Sideboard
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pyroblast
3 Ingot Chewer
1 Tropical Island
2 Lightning Bolt
2 Ancient Grudge
It beats up on blue decks really badly, I don't even have to sideboard. Against workshops, sideboard the land and you have 25, you can just drop lands until you can play over their taxing effects. Against dredge, you have lots of cards to bring on. EE is amazing, much better than Null Rod. With Academy Ruins you can just lock people out of the game with it.
Vial Wizards is heaps of fun as well (pre-Snapcaster mage list):
4 Dark Confidant
4 Meddling Mage
4 Voidmage Prodigy
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
3 Mental Misstep
3 Stifle
3 Misdirection
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 CHalice of the Void
4 Aether Vial
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
6 Fetches
Can't remember the sideboard it was too long ago.
Add Drains and a Library of Alexandria to the Landstill list and you've got yourself one hell of a good deck against the current format!
And that's my plan: to stick with Landstill and Vial Wizards and add, in this order, 4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor, 4 Mana Drain, 1 Library of Alexandria, 1 Ancestral Recall, 1 Mox Sapphire, 1 Black Lotus. Because the deck only needs 3 pieces of power to function optimally, it's a really good budget option to aim at for me. I can build it all except the Jaces from my Legacy collection, so I thought I'd start there.
Last edited by pandaman; 08-25-2012 at 05:43 AM. Reason: Forgot 2 cards in the Landstill list
I agree with everything in your post except this. Vintage Dredge is an entirely different animal than the Legacy version. Bazaar of Baghdad IS Power in that deck. If you want to "play all the broken shit you can't play anywhere else", you can't really get more broken than the Dredge deck that won Vintage Champs last year. Seriously. It runs some Power and can easily pull out turn 2 wins after a mull to 3. I can't think of anything in Vintage MORE broken. Sure there might be things AS broken (like, say, turn one lotus, land into Vault/Key with Force back up), but Dredge with Bazaars+Power is right up on the pinnacle of insane Magic with the best of them.
As far as getting/buying into Vintage, I don't have much useful advice because I accumulated most of my collection over the course of nearly 20 years (much of it when it wasn't as insanely priced as it is now). The advantage of the proxy situation in the US is that it is feasible to compete while still taking years to acquire real Power. And it does usually take years to do (e.g. my first piece of Power was picked up in 1995, but I wasn't fully powered until 2011). Be patient and keep an eye out for good deals on format staples (even if they aren't exactly what you want to play, as well as expensive Legacy staples, since those are often good trade bait). Finding your own route to collecting Power makes it more rewarding anyway.
@aahz
Fair enough. I thought Dredge can go pretty insane sometimes even for Legacy, that's why I didn't consider Vintage Dredge as a considerably different experience but as I'm not experienced with the format I can't argue with that. I'll proxy it up and goldfish some hands.
@pandaman
Very nice post, thank you very much. I noticed you are missing 2 cards in your Landstill list. Could they be 1of Brainstorm and Ponder?
Bazaar is the only deck I can think of that can mull to 1(Bazaar being that 1) and win.
They sure don't make lands like they used to. A discard outlet and dredging engine all in a compact, uncounterable land drop. Legacy Dredge did get a shot of steroids with the printing of Faithless Looting (though that makes it a lot more expensive because now LEDs are mandatory), but it still folds to counterspells because it has to actually resolve spells to go broken. Vintage Dredge laughs at the opponent's Force of Will as it can win quite efficiently without ever resolving any spells at all (sure, there is the completely manaless version in Legacy, which I actually like a lot, but it curls up and dies if the opponent has Leyline and is way too slow and grindy to be considered broken. The only way to go broken with dredge in Legacy is by casting spells).
As for acquiring Power and other expensive Vintage staples, it really depends on the status of your collection as you begin such an endeavor. The ideal situation is if you already play Legacy and EDH. There is a relatively big overlap of support/sideboard cards between Vintage and Legacy, particularly the land-based mana, so if you played any sort of blue deck in Legacy you've probably got a good chunk of a deck already (Forces, Jaces, Duals, Fetches). Most of the non-power restricted cards are EDH staples, so if you play that format you have them already (Demonic/Vampiric/Mystical Tutors, Stripmine, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt), though admittedly most are actually quite inexpensive.
I was procrastinating, so I put together some information for those looking to get into Vintage.
Money cards that actually get played in Vintage:
The Heavyweights (>$100 per copy):
Classic Power
Black Lotus
Moxen (Sapphire, Jet, Ruby, Emerald, and Pearl)
Ancestral Recall
Time Walk
Timetwister
Neo Power
Time Vault
Library of Alexandria
Bazaar of Baghdad (x4)
Mishra's Workshop (x4)
The rest of the Elite
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (not essential, usually a sideboard card for Shops)
Mana Drain (x2-4, played in EDH)
Imperial Seal
Grim Tutor (x1-2, okay, not really played much in Vintage; it does see Legacy play though)
Underground Sea (x3-4, played in Legacy)
Volcanic Island (x2-3, played in Legacy)
Tropical Island (x2-3, played in Legacy)
The Middleweights ($10-$100 per copy):
Force of Will (x4, played in Legacy)
Jace, the Mind Sculptor (x2-4, played in Legacy)
Mana Crypt (played in EDH)
Tarmogoyf (x3-4, played in Legacy and Modern)
Dark Confidant (x4, played in Legacy and Modern)
Wasteland (x4, played in Legacy)
Maze of Ith (x1-4, played in Legacy)
Thoughtseize (x1-4, played in Legacy and Modern)
Snapcaster Mage (x4, played in Legacy, Modern?, and Standard)
Vendilion Clique (x1-2, played in Legacy and Modern?)
Blue Fetchlands (x6-8, played in Legcay and Modern)
Flusterstorm (x1-4, played in Legacy)
Tolarian Academy
Yawgmoth's Will (played in EDH)
Vampiric Tutor (played in EDH)
Sensei's Divining Top (x1-2, played in Legacy and EDH)
Crucible of Worlds (x1-3, played in Legacy and EDH)
City of Traitors (x1-2, played in Legacy)
Nearly everything on the list is played in other formats (specifically Legacy and/or EDH) except old-school power cards (meaning Power and anything in Arabian Nights, Antiquities, Legends, or Portal: Three Kingdoms that wasn't reprinted), with the only exception being Tolarian Academy. The relative importance of each of the old-school expensive cards depends on what you want to play. Here are some thoughts on each of the major money cards to help those new to the format understand their roles in Vintage (and therefore how to approach their acquisition). In no particular order...
Bazaar of Baghdad - If you want to play sanctioned events as fast as possible, you want Bazaars first so you can build Dredge. A few other decks also use Bazaars, such as Worldgorger Dragon combo and certain versions of Workshop decks.
Mishra's Workshop - If you ever want play Shops (or want to be able to trade for power), you should probably consider picking up Workshops every chance you get ('cause they ain't getting any cheaper, just harder to find). However, these are low on the list for many people.
Black Lotus - Lotus could be a good option to start with. It is the most expensive, but also the most iconic and least likely to drop in price. Although it seems like Lotus is just icing (i.e. extra acceleration when you draw it) and not essential, there are some decks/plays that you CANNOT make without access to Lotus. Bomberman is one example (Lotus is part of the infinite combo with Auriok Salvagers), as is using Demonic Tutor-->Lotus as mana ramp/fixing. It pretty much goes in every Vintage deck ever with the only exceptions being Dredge (where it is still sometimes played) and certain Workshop decks (though this is not universally agreed to be correct).
Moxen - In many ways, the Moxes are just icing. They speed you up if you have them, but otherwise they are just 1 card for 1 'permanent' mana source. Some decks run all five, some only run on-color ones, largely depending on how useful effectively colorless mana is. However, they do define the format because they allow you to play 2-drops on turn one (or hold up counterspell mana, etc.), which is an important aspect of Vintage (think Bob, Lodestone Golem, or holding up Drain mana on turn one). Since they are spells and not lands, there are some quirks that are sometimes important: they increase storm (and can be bounced and replayed in this capacity); bouncing them can boost mana (Hurkyl's targetting yourself when you've got several tapped moxes in play, for example); they can be shut out by Chalice@0 or Null Rod/Stony Silence; and they can be manipulated as artifacts (boost your Tolarian Academy, destroyed by artifact hate, turn on Goblin Welder, etc.). My feeling is that Mox Sapphire is the most important (blue is the best color after all, Sapphire is sometimes played in Dredge), then Jet > Ruby >= Emerald > Pearl. Placement of Ruby and Emerald depends on what you like to play, e.g. Oath wants Emerald more, as do decks with Gush/Fastbond, Goyf, Trygon, etc., while red brings a lot to the classic Big Blue control decks (red blasts, artifact hate, Lightning Bolt, etc.).
Ancestral Recall - This card is good. Really good. If it weren't for Black Lotus, Ancestral Recall would be THE card. If you ever want to play a deck that isn't Shops, you should get one (even Dredge plays it sometimes). Definitely should be high on the list to pick up first, if not #1.
Time Walk - An interesting card. Time Walk is very powerful and flashy. The thing is that sometimes all it does is untap the two lands you used to play and replace itself. Other times it is game winning. Definitely up there for Best Cantrip, but often that's all it is, a cantrip (and it doesn't even dig like Brainstorm, Ponder, and Preordain). Except for decks where you're attacking a lot or Walk plays a critical role (e.g. Runescarred Demon Oath (pre-Griselbrand)), you can likely do without this until you've got most of the other Power.
Timetwister - This is a combo card, but Storm is rarely played in Vintage these days. Currently, this seems to show up mostly in Oath lists (although note that it doubles as Dredge hate because it resets their graveyard). Get it last, if ever, unless you plan to play a deck that needs it. Twister has gotten cheaper though since it gets played less than it used to.
Time Vault - Vault has basically replaced Timetwister as the 9th piece of Power. If you want to play Big Blue Control decks, you will eventually need a Time Vault. It's been a while since a decent Painter/Grindstone deck has done really well, and that's really the only alternative. I'd get most of the other Power first, but for most blue decks this is definitely above Twister, off-color Moxes, and possibly Time Walk.
Library of Alexandria - Library was once considered the tenth piece of Power, though it is less well regarded today. Some people love this card and some people argue that it shouldn't be played. You can probably tell which side I'm on when I point out that it continues to consistently keep showing up in Top 8 decklists (e.g. the deck that just won Vintage Champs at GenCon). There is nothing quite like dropping Library turn one on the draw and just burying your opponent in card advantage (though that doesn't always work out as planned against some of the current Vintage field). You can definitely get by without having one, but if you play Big Blue for long enough you'll probably get the urge to have one sooner or later. Get the other Power first (except possibly Twister).
Mana Drain - Drains have fallen in prominence, but they were an unquestioned 4-of and considered a pillar of the format for much of the life of Vintage (Type I, if you will). Now you'll probably want at least a couple of Drains for Big Blue (though I'd still shoot for the whole playset since some decks do want them). They keep creeping up in price but have a much larger print run than many other cards (uncommon in Legends, which was also printed in Italian), so who knows how high they can go. Pick them up when you can, but don't sweat it unless you intend to play a deck that runs 3-4 of them.
Imperial Seal - A bad Vampiric Tutor. And it costs hundreds of dollars. And only comes in white-border. The price is due to scarcity (not actual power level) and the fact that it's still legal in EDH. Pass on this unless you have too much money and all the other power cards already.
The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale - Yes, this card does get played (in Workshop sideboards). However, unless you happen to also intend to play Lands in Legacy or already have all your other Workshop cards (probably even at least a couple Bazaar of Baghdads), I wouldn't bother.
If I were starting to collect Heavyweight Vintage cards from scratch, it would depend on what specifically I wanted to play (and I'm assuming that if you want to play Vintage getting the rest of the deck together isn't an issue).
To play Big Blue:
Lotus > Ancestral > Sapphire > Drains (1-2) > Jet > Ruby > Vault > Walk > Emerald > Drains (3-4) > Library > Pearl > Twister > Imperial Seal
Variant starting with Landstill into Big Blue:
Ancestral > Sapphire > Drains (all 4) > Ruby > Lotus > Walk > Library > ...
Dredge (or how I just want to win sanctioned Vintage matches until I get enough to play other decks):
Bazaars > Lotus > Ancestral > Sapphire --> into Big Blue cards
Shops:
Workshops > Moxes (order doesn't matter) > Lotus, next either break into Big Blue or go Bazaars then Tabernacles
Of course, planning for the acquisition of Power doesn't usually work out that well. Opportunities arise and you have to either take advantage (even if you hadn't been planning to pick up that particular card) or lose out. The trick is to know what cards are worth (and how much they are worth to you!), then keep an eye out and seize the day when you can. Hopefully that was enlightening for at least one or two people out there, but if not, at least I put off some work.
It was a great post aahz and certainly very useful. I appreciate the time you put off work :)
Something that aahz left out (and I didn't realize for myself until recently) is that 3/4s of established Vintage playable cards (based on Menendian's lists he does three times a year) cost less than $10 each.
Don't Hate the Herd
2 Fire/Ice. Can't believe I forgot to list them. I don't play Ponder or Brainstorm, because I would just rather play more answer cards. It's just oldschool big drawing mono blue (light splash) control. Just slowly accumulate card advantage through Standstill/Jace/EE+Academy Ruins/Crucible+Factory blocks/Mindbreak Trap until you control the game, then you beat for 2 until you win :) It's about the best non-broken power-requiring strategy I've been able to find in Vintage so far. Making some changes to my list, and thinking about writing a primer, borrowing very heavily from The Mana Drain Landstill primer, which is fantastic.
Please do pandaman, I'll certainly start following it 'cause this deck is right up my alley (slow heavy blue control). The control in Vintage feels much different than in Legacy and feels actually like a control deck. The unpowered forum can use an Oath primer as well. It's probably the second best non power alternative for blue decks.
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