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Thread: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

  1. #41
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    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    Hey all,

    I checked on the UW Sanctuary topic and must say, pretty impressive list akatsuki!
    Congratulations on the nice finishes!
    I've edited it a little to below list.
    Pls note, a little undecided on the sideboard. Any input from your testing akatsuki, is welcome;


    1 Seat of the Synod
    7 Island
    2 Plains
    3 Tundra
    4 Flooded Strand
    1 Marsh Flats
    1 Polluted Delta
    1 Misty Rainforest
    1 Academy Ruins
    1 Karakas

    2 Helm of Obedience
    3 Energy Field
    4 Rest in Peace
    2 Detention Sphere
    3 Counterbalance
    4 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Humility
    1 Pithing Needle

    3 Enlightened Tutor
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will
    3 Spell Pierce
    4 Swords to Plowshares

    SIDEBOARD:
    2 Detention Sphere
    3 Flusterstorm
    1 Porphyry Nodes
    1 Arcane Laboratory
    3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    1 Luminarch Ascension
    1 Back to Basics
    1 Moat
    1 Energy Field
    1 Future Sight

    Basically it's the same mainboard as akatsuki. BUT changes:
    -1 Island
    -3 Fetchland
    1 Seat of the Synod
    1 Tundra
    1 Academy Ruins
    1 Karakas

    -1 Counterbalance
    -1 Enlightened Tutor
    -1 Back to Basics
    1 Energy Field
    1 Rest in Peace
    1 Humility

    Tutor combos well with a Counterbalance trigger on the stack, but forces you to draw a card you might not want, just to make CB hit. Although Tutor gets you your desired piece of fun, you can't deny it's card disadvantage.
    Upping the Energy Field and Rest in Peace seems a good way to balance the loss of control while playing 3 Counterbalance.

    Mainboard I think -1 Back to Basics +1 Humility would be better. Whereas B2B knocks down Tempo Thresh (and somewhat Maverick), Humility does the same (and even better), and protects the combo (and never harms yourself!).

  2. #42
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
    catmint's Avatar
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    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    Since the deck has so many cards that are bad in multples but could use some acceleration wouldn't some number of chrome-mox be nice?

    Also Argivian Find seems somehow playable in the 75.
    Edit: Sure.. good combo with RIP. :)

    but if the deck run's chrome mox, SD.top, FoW & E. tutor it won't have a lot of cards in hand I suppose. Ensnaring Bridge might be an option for everyone who does not want to buy a Moat.
    Currently playing: Elves

  3. #43
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    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    Do you guys have any testing/results? I'm eager to see how RIP hurts other decks and no one else is trying it
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  4. #44

    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    I play as many basics as possible due to Energy Field. You don't want more than 1 RIP, which is why I have 3 (add one to the board though for when people bring in Grips etc.) I will admit I see the potential utility of Academy Ruins (and to a lesser extent, Karakas since S&T is a great MU b/c of D-Sphere).

    Go ahead and test yourselves. 4 E-tutors is a MUST, it's by far the best card in the deck. Card disadvantage doesn't matter b/c you either counter a card when CB is out or you get a card that wins you the game (or stops you from losing). MD B2B has also been really useful.

    Also please read the whole thread before posting things like "have you guys done testing?" etc.

  5. #45
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    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    I posted this in the Parfait thread, but this is obviously the thread for this deck.

    Here's the one I have been playing. It's pretty similar to what's going on with everyone's lists so far. I just run the Land Tax combo in addition and can convert back to Stoneforge if need be. So far it's a pretty good plan since Stoneforge is excellent against what the main deck has problems with.

    Gaining the Mox Diamonds speeds you up a full turn also. Turn 4 isn't hard to pull off at all and fairly common.

    It's not as heavily comborific, but it's control elements make up for that quite handily.

    4 Land Tax
    3 Scroll Rack
    3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    3 Rest in Peace
    2 Enlightened Tutor
    2 Helm of Obedience
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Daze
    3 Spell Pierce
    4 Path to Exile
    3 Terminus
    4 Force of Will
    4 Mox Diamond
    4 Flooded Strand
    6 Island
    4 Plains
    4 Tundra


    Side
    2 Echoing Truth
    1 Pithing Needle
    2 Detention Sphere
    2 Blue Elemental Blast
    2 Batterskull
    4 Stoneforge Mystic
    1 Back to Basics
    1 Runed Halo - (this is a debatable slot. It's only here to cover any stupid stuff I might not have thought of until I get a more solid SB)




    I like the Porphory Nodes, but I'm not sold on Energy Sphere. Nodes is similar to the Drop of Honey I used to play in BUG control so I can see it working well. Sphere I figure I really don't have a use for since mine is pretty aggressive.

  6. #46
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    There is a lot going on taking the idea in different directions.

    First I think we can agree that "heavy" control is necessary. With that I mean not playing 4 Helm of Obedience.

    Then there is the general question of: Do we want to play the "attrition game" in the sense of trading cards and gaining card advantage with stuff like Swords, Terminus, Jace, Miracles, Spell Pierce,... or do we want to lock out with Counterbalance, Moat, Humility, Ensnaring Bridge, RIP/Field.

    I think it should go more into the lock direction because E. Tutor, Mox Diamond/Chrome Mox, Force of Will & clunky stuff which is bad in multiples are a bad start for getting card advantages, but the lock pieces provide very good virtual card advantage.

    In detail the questions I am working on are:

    1) Acceleration
    I think it is necessary since altough the manabase is super stable al lock pieces are 3+ mana and we want to use top and maybe use a spell pierce. Between Mox Diamond and Chrome Mox I would opt to go for Chrome Mox since I don't want to run more than 21 lands given we play sooo many basics and SD.top. On the other hand multiples of RIP/Field/counterbalance can become useful by providing fast mana.

    Not sure if this is correct but I would like to run 3 Chrome Mox in the deck. Alternatively 1-2 Sol lands could be a nice addition to the manabase.

    2) Counterbalance
    To me a clear: yes - so much synergy
    3 seems like a good number

    3) Swords to Plowshares
    I don't know. If I play creature/damage lock main, what do I want to sword? Lackey, Thalia, Delver,...? I feel just a couple of swords won't be enough against any good creature deck; therefore some lock need to be established anyway and swords takes slots away. ?? Only real problem is Teeg, but then you have to kill mother first... could be very difficult.

    4) Miracles (Terminus)
    Don't want to go that route I think. If Rip/Field is not enough, Humility or Ensnaring should come first.

    5) Jace
    Difficult one. If I don't kill the creatures I have to lock them first to make Jace good - and then I am winning anyway. So this might depend if I go the Swords/Miracles route or the lock route. Still Jace is so powerful and very good in matchups where the opponent does not drop a lot of creatures. If not maindeck then surely SB.

    6) Humility, Ensnaring Bridge, Moat
    If I do not play creature removal I would go for Humility & Ensnaring Bridge main like carsten suggested, since Moat alone does not stop delver.

    7) Spell Pierce
    think this is necessary both to stop other combo decks and to defend our critical spells.

    8) E. Tutor
    Feels like the best spell that does it all. 4 seems right.

    9) SB
    Of course a lot of good silverbullets for E.Tutor, but I can see needle in multiples to protect against Explosives, Deed, Pridemage

    Also is Academy ruins worth a slot? With rip in play we won't get a lot of stuff back right?
    Currently playing: Elves

  7. #47

    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    I love this kind of tricky deck.. did someone already consider Sterling Grove for protection and tutoring?

    Also, this deck is all enchantments.. a couple of Replenish, should things run for the worse?

  8. #48
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    Replenish does not really work too well with RIP.
    Currently playing: Elves

  9. #49

    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    obviously.. in case things should go wrong. (Disenchant, etc.)

    has anyone considered a plan B in case of Surgical Extraction??
    a countered/destroyed RIP can be a nightmare

    edit: yes, anyway Replenish was a bad call.

  10. #50

    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    You can always board out the combo and bring in SFM/Batterskull or more Jace + EtA. But I seriously doubt that anyone would bring in Surgicals against this deck. Its a funny card once RiP is on board ...
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  11. #51

    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    Black decks have the option of bringing in Surgical, if they play cards like Abrupt Decay and lots of discard to ensure RIP doesn't get/stay in play. So I would definitely consider some alt. win conditions.

    Maverick and Bant are definitely tough matchups.... I might consider Seal of Removal (and Seal of Cleansing for that matter).

    Also, I decided against Academy Ruins when I realized it couldn't recur enchantments. Definitely not worth it when it has only 2 real MD targets.

  12. #52
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    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    I have to say I love this deck, I have always loved helm since it was printed and the illustration, classic. I wonder if ancient tomb would be a good way to excel to higher mana to activate the combo.

  13. #53

    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    I don't understand why you are playing non-basics lands. Karakas, Academy Ruins, Seat of the Synod do next to nothing. Who cares about there legendary creatures when you have humility. What are you trying to recur? If you got rid of that, then you would no longer lose to wasteland. Which is what you have basically set yourself up to do. Any deck that energy field is good against runs wasteland.

    So why subject yourself to losing when you can keep it simple. I honestly think you could cut tundras out of the main deck entirely, or keep 1 main or 1 in the board.

    something like this:
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Force of Will
    4 Rest in Peace
    4 Energy Field
    2 Helm of Obedience
    4 Enlightened Tutor
    3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
    3 Sensei's Divining Top
    1 Humility
    3 Land Tax
    1 Scroll Rack
    2 Counterbalance
    1 Back to Basics
    1 Defense Grid

    4 Flooded Strand
    8 Plains
    10 Island
    1 Tundra



    SB: 1 detention spehere
    SB: 1 Counterbalance
    SB: 1 Back to Basics
    SB: 1 Humility
    SB: 1 Moat
    SB: 1 Defense Grid
    SB: 1 Cursed Totem

  14. #54

    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    Quote Originally Posted by gkraigher View Post
    I don't understand why you are playing non-basics lands. Karakas, Academy Ruins, Seat of the Synod do next to nothing. Who cares about there legendary creatures when you have humility.
    Seat of the Synod does nothing if you don't play Trinket Mage, because I can't ever imagine E.Tutoring for that land. I must have kept a very bad hand to make that happen.
    Academy Ruins also does nothing, especially not if you have RiP out. You're most likely not going to play a Helm before RiP, so what's the point?
    Karakas is a little different, since we are pretty cold to Mother of Runes + Teeg, which is not uncommon. It's also incidentially good against Reanimator. Humility is mostly too slow here.

    Quote Originally Posted by gkraigher View Post
    4 Flooded Strand
    8 Plains
    10 Island
    1 Tundra
    That mana base however can't be correct. 4 fetches is not enough if you need to filter with Brainstorm and SD.Top. Next to E.Tutor, Top->Fetch->Top again is the main way to assemble the combo. 8-9 fetches are appropriate.

    Quote Originally Posted by Moduloc View Post
    I wonder if ancient tomb would be a good way to excel to higher mana to activate the combo.
    Yes, I think it would. AtM, my mana base looks like that:

    7 Island
    2 Plains
    3 Tundra
    4 Flooded Strand
    2 Polluted Delta
    2 Scalding Tarn
    1 Marsh Flats
    1 Ancient Tomb
    1 Karakas
    Quote Originally Posted by Barook View Post
    World Enchantments sit in the corner and cry because nobody gives a fuck about them.

  15. #55

    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    FWIW, I'd consider a manabase that had only fetches and 2 Karakas as nonbasics, but then I can't play the deck with regularity.

    Moreover, if your Rest in Peace gets destroyed, it's also exiled in a similar way to Samurai of the Pale Curtain. So no Surgical shenanigans either way. So you still have nothing to fear from cards like Surgical whilst RiP is on the field.

  16. #56

    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    To me this combo is an almost strict upgrade to thopter-sword, which is played in a similar shell. It wins on the spot, it's not vulnerable to GY or artifact hate (providing you play helm with RiP on the board) and one of the combo pieces is often useful by itself. Therefore and rather than reinventing the wheel I think we have a lot to learn from the CB-thopter lists which have been fine-tuned over the years. Take for instance sdematt's last list :

    1 Academy Ruins
    1 Seat of the Synod
    1 Ancient Tomb (very good all tournament)
    3 Tundra
    1 Underground Sea
    4 Flooded Strand
    3 Scalding Tarn
    1 Marsh Flats
    5 Island
    2 Plains
    1 Karakas

    3 Force of Will
    1 Counterspell
    1 Spell Pierce
    1 Mana Leak

    3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

    4 Brainstorm
    4 Swords to Plowshares
    2 Terminus
    4 Enlightened Tutor

    3 Counterbalance
    4 Sensei's Divining Top

    1 Engineered Explosives
    2 Ensnaring Bridge
    1 Humility
    1 Sword of the Meek
    3 Thopter Foundry
    Just replace thopter by RiP and sword by helm and that's a solid basis, imo. Probably needs some small adjustments (e.g. a second helm since we're can't recur it like sword), but that's about it.
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  17. #57
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    I think Teeg is something to really have in mind when deck designing. Landing Humility before Teeg comes down won't happen often enough - especially with Thalia around. If you don't want to be forced to kill every mother in sight (which restricts deck design in terms of running a lot of removal -> remember we don't have access to snapcaster mage like other UWx decks), I would opt to run more than 1 Karakas in the 75.

    In addition it might be an option to run some way of tutoring Karakas which also have other applications like Muddle the Mixture, Tolaria West or Crop Rotation if you want to splash green for sterling grove (which I don't think is a good idea).

    Maybe it is an option to run more utility lands that support the gameplan but are "bad" land drops like Karakas, Maze of Ith, Tolaria West and support Mox Diamond.
    Currently playing: Elves

  18. #58

    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    some way of tutoring Karakas which also have other applications like Muddle the Mixture
    Uh?
    Last edited by Maëlig; 10-04-2012 at 10:16 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maveric78f View Post
    In France, there is also some habits to say hello to your baker when you buy some bread, with no penalty if I don't. However if I don't do it, my fame is damaged. that is the reason why I always say hello to my baker in France.

  19. #59

    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    It's also incidentially good against Reanimator. Humility is mostly too slow here.
    You have rest in peace and humility main. That is enough for game 1. Sneak and Show is a little different, but all you have to do is tutor up humility and keep it in your hand. I don't think those decks are a problem.

    Onto Gaddock Teeg, which is a problem. The Good News is he is a 1 lot in exactly 1 deck. And even with Green Sun's Zeniths, you still don't have that much to worry about. Your opponent might not know what you are playing in game 1, so they may not go that line of play until its too late. If you want to play Karakas against it, fine, just do it from the board. You cannot justify weakening your deck against RUG, Goblins, Elves, and all the other 4 x Wasteland mains that would scoop to Energy Field game 1 to deal with a card that might be a problem in only 1 deck. That is why you have a sideboard. So tuck 2-3 karakas in there, along with cursed totem (for the pridemages) and another humility. Problem solved.

    I think swords to plowshares is better than karakas though. Especially if you can drop that cursed totem against Maverick. You sighted mother of runes to protect against swords, well they also have 4 wastelands and 4 knights of the reliquary to battle karakas. That seems twice as more likely than the 4 mother of runes.

  20. #60
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    Re: UW Sanctuary (Helm/RiP combo)

    What about Powder Keg as a solution against Teeg?

    It's tutorable, doesn't give a damn about Teeg (unlike EE) and leaves your enchantments alone (unlike EE/Ratchet Bomb).

    Might be too slow, though, as it takes two turns to charge.

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