[Deck] 12 Post

[Hencules]

Merry Christmas! And apparently, here's the real Ugin:



7 starting loyalty and an out-of-the-box board wipe if you want it...and a reverse-Bolas ult if you get there. Not a lot to complain about here.

Whoa, that's big. At that level of mana we already have amazing cards, so not sure how we would play this. If the goal is to ramp to this, candelabra just got a lot better I guess. Good for mud?

[Davek]

Davek, question about your list. Through several iterations of testing, adjusting and testing some more, I arrived at the exact same list. However, I felt like I couldn't win anymore after the opponent got to resolve Treasure Cruise, so I decided to play it myself.

Don't you mis the raw power of treasure cruise? I play it three times, which allows me to find it later in the game to get back. The whole deal of twelve post is to sacrifice early tempo for an amazing late game, but if they're playing cruise and we're not, this difference in tempo cannot be caught up anymore. Playing a T4 or even T3 cruise allows you to regain that.

What's your opinion on it?

Sorry for the late reply, i had been recently spending my time making lasagne and tortellini for today's lunch!

I've tested Treasure Cruise for a bit, and i honestly couldn't be more disappointed with that card, it's the typical "win more" card that usually clogs my hand until i've already resolved something huge or have stabilized the game, which means i'm already winning. The same feeling could be applied to this new planeswalker, even if i have to say it's quite tempting to test. Ok, let's say TC could shine in a meta infested by BUG and Jund, since it helps you to recover from early discard, but TC itself is pushing these decks away from being top contenders because discard effects allow your opponent to cast their TC earlier, de facto nullifying all your efforts. Every time i saw TC in my opening hand together with a titan or an eldrazi i thought to myself "d'oh, it's like mulliganing to 5!" I'm sorry but i cannot see any potential for that card in this shell, unless the meta shifts again brutally. I think the latest builds purposed here show this trend, going to 4 copies to 3 and now to 2. It's not such a great card here.

[Bobmans]

If discard/wasteland is a problem then would something like 1 Life from the Loam and say 2 Intuition be a solution? Or has that already been explored?

Edit: hehe, realize that dredging Emrakul kind of stupid.

[Maagler]

If discard/wasteland is a problem then would something like 1 Life from the Loam and say 2 Intuition be a solution? Or has that already been explored?

Edit: hehe, realize that dredging Emrakul kind of stupid.

Yeah that, and the fact that it doesn't add lands to the board or stall for time.

[TimHarding]

Merry Christmas! And apparently, here's the real Ugin:



7 starting loyalty and an out-of-the-box board wipe if you want it...and a reverse-Bolas ult if you get there. Not a lot to complain about here.

Seems like an easy sub for anyone playing All is Dust or Karn. I think I'll try this one actually. Plus lately I'm leaning towards ticking up the Vesuva count. Being at 3-4 Maps to force the cavern plan lately has naturally strengthened the alt/colorless win path. Which is why at least TWO candelabra is where I remain always. I see a lot of people's tourney reports on here with a lot of advantage durdling and never hear of candling to victory.

Maybe this block will bring more fun colorless goodies

[Mockingbird]

Whoa, that's big. At that level of mana we already have amazing cards, so not sure how we would play this. If the goal is to ramp to this, candelabra just got a lot better I guess. Good for mud?

Generally, if Ugin resolves, my current thinking is you wipe the board of the relevant threat (either Bolt something or Pernicious Deed them all), then punch opponents in the face until you reach ultimate and hopefully get something great into play. The best part about the -x in Legacy is I don't know of many decks that have to drop him more than 3. Also, True-Name Nemesis is not Ugin proof.

[Rock Lee]

Yeah that, and the fact that it doesn't add lands to the board or stall for time.

Been brewing Ugin with Painter/grindstone with Trinket Mage.

Yes painter turns off Eye of Ugin, but you can tutor it with Eye.

Giga-deed in legacy is nuts. Costs comparably to deed then X=3, but has the ability to armageddon+. Could merit running tabernacle again, since giga-geedon-> play tabernacle for turn is positively evil.

The ability to self-grind to gleen bad top cards, or possibly shuffle has always been a corner case, Just required an additional synergy to make tenable. Painter-Ugin essentially being Mycosynth Lattice + Null Rod and a wincon could easily be that synergy. Not to mention that I have already been testing builds with maindeck relic of Progenitus, which only has more overlap with a heavier-trinket mage build.

[Mockingbird]

Been brewing Ugin with Painter/grindstone with Trinket Mage.

Yes painter turns off Eye of Ugin, but you can tutor it with Eye.

Giga-deed in legacy is nuts. Costs comparably to deed then X=3, but has the ability to armageddon+. Could merit running tabernacle again, since giga-geedon-> play tabernacle for turn is positively evil.

The ability to self-grind to gleen bad top cards, or possibly shuffle has always been a corner case, Just required an additional synergy to make tenable. Painter-Ugin essentially being Mycosynth Lattice + Null Rod and a wincon could easily be that synergy. Not to mention that I have already been testing builds with maindeck relic of Progenitus, which only has more overlap with a heavier-trinket mage build.

That sounds fun and all... but why would I want to Giga-Deed-geddon with Painter's Servant when Emrakul does the same thing all by its lonesome? And Emrakul + Karakas is still as evil as combos come in Legacy.

I think that Ugin is probably the next great thing that can pick up where Karn Liberated fell off (except plucking away lands/colorless cards) and could even be main deck worthy, but I'm going to ask you a question you asked me so long ago: are you just innovating for innovation's sake?

I'm cool if you are because it's great fun and there's always fun discoveries to be made (I still like Tezzeret the Seeker even though I know better in this meta), and I have little ground to criticize on that front. I hope it brings something cool to the table.

*Side-note: I'm going to tick off my kitchen table group though at least once by "giga-deed-geddon"ing.*
*Side-note 2: Relic of Progenitus was a main-deck 2-2 split in Modern in numerous strategies before Delve in Khans and has become auto 4 since; it's definitely Legacy worthy now more than ever*

[Ponders]

Generally, if Ugin resolves, my current thinking is you wipe the board of the relevant threat (either Bolt something or Pernicious Deed them all), then punch opponents in the face until you reach ultimate and hopefully get something great into play. The best part about the -x in Legacy is I don't know of many decks that have to drop him more than 3. Also, True-Name Nemesis is not Ugin proof.

It might be a good substitute for anyone running a 1x All is dust. I do think the standard post-builds are a bit creature light, based on the build I'm running, I would probably try siding out the bojuka bog for Ugin.

[Maagler]

Been brewing Ugin with Painter/grindstone with Trinket Mage.

Yes painter turns off Eye of Ugin, but you can tutor it with Eye.

Giga-deed in legacy is nuts. Costs comparably to deed then X=3, but has the ability to armageddon+. Could merit running tabernacle again, since giga-geedon-> play tabernacle for turn is positively evil.

The ability to self-grind to gleen bad top cards, or possibly shuffle has always been a corner case, Just required an additional synergy to make tenable. Painter-Ugin essentially being Mycosynth Lattice + Null Rod and a wincon could easily be that synergy. Not to mention that I have already been testing builds with maindeck relic of Progenitus, which only has more overlap with a heavier-trinket mage build.

I was referring to his question about life from the loam.

I like the name giga-deed btw. I have been putting Karn in and out of the side for a while now against decks that I need more threats against. I think that Ugin is probably an upgrade for Karn in those matches because he sweeps the board rather than targets. also he is a pretty decent win-con afterwards once they have no threats.

The only obvious issue is that he costs 1 more than Karn does, meaning you cant go cloudpost>cloudpost>glimmer>Karn. while this play usually doesn't come up because he is being dropped later when you have the eighth mana, it is something to consider.

I also liked having Karn in against the MUD match, where Ugin is not really that great. This guy is not great against affinity, but Karn was never a game plan against them anyways.

The painter route seems interesting and is probably worth being explored, but on the surface I am unconvinced this is the route to take the deck. My assumption is that the rest of the deck would have to be drastically morphed to include this game plan since most of the deck does not support it in the first place. I think by adding painter to the deck you will be forced to start making a decision on the route that you want the game to go before you would have to in the standard build. The best aspect in the deck is that you can leave as many possibilities open for yourself throughout the game until you win, making it one of the best control decks in the format. By trying to force in the painter my fear is that the opponent will not only have more angles to attack the your strategy, but also force the deck into a faster combo oriented roll where if the opponent answers your more fragile threats you lose.

But if it works it works, only testing will show despite all the theory crafting.

[apple713]

Been brewing Ugin with Painter/grindstone with Trinket Mage.

Yes painter turns off Eye of Ugin, but you can tutor it with Eye.

Giga-deed in legacy is nuts. Costs comparably to deed then X=3, but has the ability to armageddon+. Could merit running tabernacle again, since giga-geedon-> play tabernacle for turn is positively evil.

The ability to self-grind to gleen bad top cards, or possibly shuffle has always been a corner case, Just required an additional synergy to make tenable. Painter-Ugin essentially being Mycosynth Lattice + Null Rod and a wincon could easily be that synergy. Not to mention that I have already been testing builds with maindeck relic of Progenitus, which only has more overlap with a heavier-trinket mage build.

so this doesn't really seem to add much to the deck. if you have 7 mana to use ugin, you have better things to do then search up painter. If you have 8 mana available to cast ugin you are probably going to win anyways. further "comboing" with ugin is utterly win more...

That sounds fun and all... but why would I want to Giga-Deed-geddon with Painter's Servant when Emrakul does the same thing all by its lonesome? And Emrakul + Karakas is still as evil as combos come in Legacy.

I think that Ugin is probably the next great thing that can pick up where Karn Liberated fell off (except plucking away lands/colorless cards) and could even be main deck worthy, but I'm going to ask you a question you asked me so long ago: are you just innovating for innovation's sake?

ugin is awesome, however he doesn't really do much for the deck. This deck can cast him no problem, but the only real shortcoming of the deck is staying in the game long enough to get to late game. what do you take out to put in Ugin? also, wouldn't you rather have a primeval? glimerposts / chasm should allow you to survive most cases to get you through late game. if you are that far behind that primeval won't save you, yes ugin might but where primeval doesn't get countered because of caverns, ugin does.

Ugin would definitely replace any Karn's or All is dusts but were those really ever being played?

Maybe now with Ugin, there could be a colorless deck with both Ugin and All is dust and the locus lands.

also, has anyone considered working with chalice of the void heavily? if so: what sac outlet would you use so you can still play the 1 cost spells that are essential, like crop rotation, for example? i am currently trying out ancient grudge + intuition + commune with the gods. engineered explosives also lets me kill it for 2 mana, so i'm using that as a 1 of, as well. any other elegant, and hopefully DIVERSE ways of removing your own chalice from play that anyone has thought of?

I wouldn't want to use cards main like ancient grudge just to destroy your chalice or work around it. Working with chalice is great since It helps a lot vs ant / elves / burn / delver decks. My configuration is quite different than traditional lists because i refuse to have such a poor short game as traditional lists do. Veteran explorer's serve as blockers to get me to late game and being able to GSZ for them even with a chalice at 1 out is very nice. While having them STP'd sucks, decks with STP are generally good matches.

//Creatures - 13
3 Veteran Explorer
3 Primeval Titan
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Courser of Kruphix
1 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Progenitus

//Spells - 19
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Mox Diamond
3 Natural Order
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Crop Rotation
3 Sylvan Library

//Lands - 28
4 Windswept Heath
4 Forest
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Savannah
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Glimmerpost
4 Cloudpost
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Eye of Ugin
4 Ancient Tomb

//Sideboard
SB: 1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
SB: 3 Trinisphere
SB: 1 Gaddock Teeg
SB: 1 Bojuka Bog
SB: 1 Willow Satyr
SB: 1 Tower of the Magistrate
SB: 1 Reclamation Sage
SB: 1 Stingerfling Spider
SB: 1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Hornet Queen

//Others for Consideration
SB: 1 Bane of Progress
SB: 1 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 1 Stoic Angel
SB: 1 Phantom Nishoba
SB: 1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre

[Darkenslight]

I was referring to his question about life from the loam.

I like the name giga-deed btw. I have been putting Karn in and out of the side for a while now against decks that I need more threats against. I think that Ugin is probably an upgrade for Karn in those matches because he sweeps the board rather than targets. also he is a pretty decent win-con afterwards once they have no threats.

The only obvious issue is that he costs 1 more than Karn does, meaning you cant go cloudpost>cloudpost>glimmer>Karn. while this play usually doesn't come up because he is being dropped later when you have the eighth mana, it is something to consider.

I also liked having Karn in against the MUD match, where Ugin is not really that great. This guy is not great against affinity, but Karn was never a game plan against them anyways.

The painter route seems interesting and is probably worth being explored, but on the surface I am unconvinced this is the route to take the deck. My assumption is that the rest of the deck would have to be drastically morphed to include this game plan since most of the deck does not support it in the first place. I think by adding painter to the deck you will be forced to start making a decision on the route that you want the game to go before you would have to in the standard build. The best aspect in the deck is that you can leave as many possibilities open for yourself throughout the game until you win, making it one of the best control decks in the format. By trying to force in the painter my fear is that the opponent will not only have more angles to attack the your strategy, but also force the deck into a faster combo oriented roll where if the opponent answers your more fragile threats you lose.

But if it works it works, only testing will show despite all the theory crafting.

I'm liking Ugin as an alternative wincon all on his own - his +2 is Ghostfire, which kills in 6 turns against most decks, his All is Dust impression is rather entertaining, seeing as you cna choose not to hit your PrimeTimes, and the ultimate is pretty damn sweet. It's also highly ironic that Ugin's appearance is Bolas' post-Time Spiral mirror.

[Rock Lee]

That sounds fun and all... but why would I want to Giga-Deed-geddon with Painter's Servant when Emrakul does the same thing all by its lonesome? And Emrakul + Karakas is still as evil as combos come in Legacy.

I think that Ugin is probably the next great thing that can pick up where Karn Liberated fell off (except plucking away lands/colorless cards) and could even be main deck worthy, but I'm going to ask you a question you asked me so long ago: are you just innovating for innovation's sake?

I'm cool if you are because it's great fun and there's always fun discoveries to be made (I still like Tezzeret the Seeker even though I know better in this meta), and I have little ground to criticize on that front. I hope it brings something cool to the table.

*Side-note: I'm going to tick off my kitchen table group though at least once by "giga-deed-geddon"ing.*
*Side-note 2: Relic of Progenitus was a main-deck 2-2 split in Modern in numerous strategies before Delve in Khans and has become auto 4 since; it's definitely Legacy worthy now more than ever*

My jaunt with augur of bolas, and briefly sea gate oracle taught me the silly power of a 1/3 in the current meta. I've also been running more and more Trinket Mages since I've gone up Engineered Explosives and Relic of Progenitus counts. This alongside my move towards maindeck flusterstorm and maindeck fow is extremely good at buying me time, allowing me to reduce my win-con counts and include more sweeper/removal options. Ugin gives both pinpoint and sweeper by itself, along with an incredible wincon unto itself multiple ways. Also maindecking flusterstorm has only two weaknesses, artifacts and creatures, ugin's sweeper and plus ability deal with this with minimal exception.

[Maagler]

My jaunt with augur of bolas, and briefly sea gate oracle taught me the silly power of a 1/3 in the current meta. I've also been running more and more Trinket Mages since I've gone up Engineered Explosives and Relic of Progenitus counts. This alongside my move towards maindeck flusterstorm and maindeck fow is extremely good at buying me time, allowing me to reduce my win-con counts and include more sweeper/removal options. Ugin gives both pinpoint and sweeper by itself, along with an incredible wincon unto itself multiple ways. Also maindecking flusterstorm has only two weaknesses, artifacts and creatures, ugin's sweeper and plus ability deal with this with minimal exception.

Are you thinking the new game plan is resolving Ugin now? do you think he is powerful enough to be a primary threat in the deck? Or are you think of him as a sideboard card?

[Rock Lee]

Are you thinking the new game plan is resolving Ugin now? do you think he is powerful enough to be a primary threat in the deck? Or are you think of him as a sideboard card?

I haven't tested him at all since there are multiple big events before Ugin's release. My initial impulse is he will be a similar count as Jace + entreat is in miracles, so 2-3. Maindeck.

[sun tzu]

I haven't tested him at all since there are multiple big events before Ugin's release. My initial impulse is he will be a similar count as Jace + entreat is in miracles, so 2-3. Maindeck.

have you considered eureka as a way to 'cheat' ugin, the spirit dragon into play? i also considered that if you have painter's servant in your deck you can eureka then blow them out with the ugin -x ability (like rock lee said).

[Mockingbird]

have you considered eureka as a way to 'cheat' ugin, the spirit dragon into play? i also considered that if you have painter's servant in your deck you can eureka then blow them out with the ugin -x ability (like rock lee said).

If we're cheating him in that way, do we really need Cloudpost at that point? Why not go Nic Fit instead?

[Hencules]

I haven't tested him at all since there are multiple big events before Ugin's release. My initial impulse is he will be a similar count as Jace + entreat is in miracles, so 2-3. Maindeck.

Though Ugin can serve as a win-con, it needs several turns to do so. Emrakul-hardcast wins without having to give an opponent another turn. Therefore I'd say going for the emrakul plan is better than going for the Ugin plan. I'm not sure if you need Ugin in this deck.

[Mockingbird]

Though Ugin can serve as a win-con, it needs several turns to do so. Emrakul-hardcast wins without having to give an opponent another turn. Therefore I'd say going for the emrakul plan is better than going for the Ugin plan. I'm not sure if you need Ugin in this deck.

Ugin, if justified, would ultimately help out with the decks low threat count. If you don't count Primeval Titan, then the deck has 2-3 win cons (6-7 counting him). And he fits the bill for helping because he's also utility. Substantive burn on a colorless card is more important than it may initially seem. The deck's splashed red in the past because generating advantage or taking shots to their face or to another walker is something that keeps opponents busy. "Giga-deed" for 8 mana is well... good. It may even rank up there with annihilator because it hits most the things we want to hit. The drawback to annihilator has always been what disappears always is the opponent's choice (that matters like 1 out of 5 cases, but still...) The Ultimate? Show and Tell/Eureka on steroids.

My point: being utility just as much as win con at least serves as a reason to test him and test him hard. Is he the next great thing in Post? I dunno. Being a dragon planeswalker that gives anyone abilities in red and black without actually playing those colors in addition to being an important character to the magic plot will draw a lot of attention to it.

[honz]

Been brewing Ugin with Painter/grindstone with Trinket Mage

You, sir, have my attention.