So here is my new List that i'm testing a Little bit on Cockatrice since Saturday. I'm 8:2 ;) lost to Shardless BUG with white and against Omnitell.
I'm very happy with the List. I think UG is a very good choice right now and not some weird Monogreen Posts^^
@Rock Lee
I dont like your new UG list. It's really weird. I know Gitaxian Probe can grap you Information for a Wasteland or something but it's just a bad Card in this deck and a very bad topdeck.
You probably should play Needles instead^^
Fact or Fiction seems ok but i think you can play better choices like more tops(very good right now and just 1 mana). It seems sometimes you can't cast it if you need flexibility.
@Lord Seth
I think Mono G is not the way you should play because you can't play important Cards like Brainstorm, Repeal and Snt. You're a lot weaker against Discard and Counter.
anyway here's my list:
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
3 Expedition Map (I think 3 is always the right number because sometimes you dont want 4;)
2 Pithing Needle ( 2 is fine. 3 is to much because alot Combo is here too.
3 Sensei's Divining Top (3 Tops are ok. 4 seems ok but you dont want a second sometimes.
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Primeval Titan
4 Brainstorm
3 Crop Rotation
1 Moment's Peace (Save Games)
4 Repeal
2 Show and Tell (2 is fine with 5 Creatures
3 Force of Will (We dont need 4 because FoW is bad against Delver etc^^
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon (Yes i cut Kozilek for him and Ugin is alot better...just 8 mana, Bouth can be countered. Kozilek draws you 4 Cards but you don't win. Specially against all the Creatures based Match ups, Ugin does not win instantly but with he's -x you can take out all creatures, Pws and Enchantements. It's relevant against BUG and Jund. And of course against elves. And i'm sure they have a coming back too. So please guys test him alot;)
I'm very happy with Ugin:)
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Cloudpost
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Glimmerpost
1 Island
1 Karakas
4 Misty Rainforest
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale (Tabernacle is still very good against the Fair Creatures Decks)
4 Tropical Island
3 Vesuva (3 Vesuva is very good and becaue of Wasteland and Ugin)
SB: 2 Mindbreak Trap
SB: 2 Engineered Explosives
SB: 4 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Moment's Peace
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 3 Obstinate Baloth (He's too good against Hymn and Lili)
SB: 2 Trinisphere (I'm just testing Trinispehre against Omnitell and maybe Storm)
Feel free to Post
Greets Dingo
After some consideration and discontent with the deck in the current position it held, I decided to take a break from 12 Post for a bit to try and improve my skills in other areas. I tend to jump around from deck to deck in order to try and understand the metagame and tend to gravitate towards Miracles since it is, by far, the deck I perform the most consistently well with. That being said, after SCG Indy I plan on testing a new list that I have put together.
// Creatures
4 Primeval Titan
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
// Planeswalkers
2 Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
// Noncreature Spells
2 Show and Tell
3 Force of Will
2 Flusterstorm
3 Repeal
4 Ancient Stirrings
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
3 Sylvan Scrying
3 Expedition Map
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
// Land
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Vesuva
3 Tropical Island
3 Misty Rainforest
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Cavern of Souls
// Sideboard
2 Venarian Glimmer
2 Flusterstorm
1 Show and Tell
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Pithing Needle
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Relic of Progenitus
I tested a very off-the-wall list (it ran 4 Birds of Paradise and 3 Simic Charm to stop Wasteland and kill Delvers) and I found I greatly liked what some of the deck was doing even when I was just goofing around.
- Jace, the Mind Sculptor increases the blue card count for Force of Will by artificially by providing very smooth card advantage. He is excellent against BUG, Sneak and Show, and Storm. An excellent way to win the game or buy time against Wastelands as well given is low CMC.
- Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is amazing. I've always wanted an All is Dust or Oblivion Stone effect against any non-combo deck and Ugin just comes down and crushes the hope of any midrange or Delver deck. If you resolve this guy, you are likely going to win unless you're playing against combo.
- Ancient Stirrings is an idea I saw Rock Lee post about and thoughts about my days of modern Tron reminded me just how consistent this card makes a deck like post. Playing it allows us to play more mana intensive cards like Jace while smoothing out draws against Wasteland decks.
- Sylvan Scrying replaces Crop Rotation in this list. You may scratch your head and call me crazy about that, but the ability to tutor consistently for lands ends up outweighing the downside of being softer to Wasteland. Again, by focusing on a slightly lower curve we can push through Wasteland decks game one and are better against decks that can counter Crop Rotation when we need to tutor.
- Ponder is somewhat of a concession to Force of Will here, as I'd greatly prefer this to be Chromatic Sphere/[/CARDS]Chromatic Star[/CARDS]. In any case I'm aiming for consistency and proactive play and Ponder helps that.
- Force of Will is pretty much the best counterspell possible in this build for several reasons, the primary of which is our proactive strategy. By not needing to hold up mana to cast a counterspell we aren't held back speed-wise when concerned about a spell our opponent may have.
- Flusterstorm in the mainboard is a personal preference of mine. I really like the 3 Force, 2 Flusterstorm split there to increase our percentage against storm game one. It is worth noting that without Sensei's Divining Top that Flusterstorm must be used very conscientiously because of the possibility of discard.
- Venarian Glimmer stays in line with our proactive strategy and allows us to fight through combo decks by gaining information. At its worst it reads 'U: Look at target storm player's hand and get free information. They have to discard a Lion's Eye Diamond'. If used correctly, it pairs very well with Flusterstorm against Storm and other combo decks.
- Relic of Progenitus is great against graveyard decks and we can dig efficiently with it due to Ancient Stirrings.
- Pithing Needle, Phyrexian Revoker, and Blue Elemental Blast just make Sneak Attack decks very sad. BEB counters Sneak and protects needle/revoker from almost all of the artifact hate that they play. I think that Sneak and Show is surely going to be among the most popular decks in the format with Dig Through Time being legal without Treasure Cruise. Pithing Needle also gives a lot of utility against pretty much 80% of decks you will play against, so side it in at your own discretion.
The list feels very promising and preliminary testing online and double-handed supports that.
EDIT: Is there some better way to format my posts so that everything doesn't get squished the way it does? The editor isn't giving me a lot in terms of making stuff readable.... sorry about the length of the post.
Maybe, but until someone comes along and gives me the $1,000 I'd need for the Blue splash, I'm sticking with Mono-Green.Originally Posted by Pdingo
Regardless, it being Mono-Green was completely besides my point.
The mono green version is just differently equipped than the blue/green version. You play more proactive anti-combo cards, which I actually like a lot. I wish I didn't need so many blue cards for Force, otherwise I'd totally play Cabal Therapy or Thoughtseize for combo matchups using Chromatic Sphere/Star.
I do lean towards green advantage/proactive hate, but it needs blue because it offers so much flexibility it's too hard to deny, especially in a 8+ round tourney. Otherwise, I would've leaned on thoughtsieze (2nd best Legacy card in a non-red driven meta) and other black cards, but black is best alongside brainstorm... Unfortunately, that's too many colors :(
IMO, Needle is back to being a fantastic meta call, pile them on!
I agree that UG and mono G are 100% different decks. I have both =)
Slight shift of gears, here... how do you beat maverick and infect? I lose to both 100% of the time.
Maverick prisons me out with thalia, thoughtseize, and wasteland. GSZ, or a top decked knight of the reliquary and it's game over. Now he can just go get karakas, wasteland, whatever he needs to beat me.
Quasali pridemage kills my needles. Show and tell prime time doesn't even get me there, and often times I'm dead before I even can get to show and tell mana! Granted the dude playing the deck knows me and my deck very well but still. I've always struggled with this match up.
Same deal with infect, almost. Any ideas?
I've only played against Infect once so I don't have too much experience, but it seems to me Glacial Chasm is a great way to hold them off. You can keep it up for even longer than usual, because the Infect creatures can't hit your life total, so you have more life to spend on the upkeep.
If you can pull it off, Chalice at 1 hits them really hard as well.
Infect is not a great matchup for us. With a good draw, Infect can kill in a single swing, although this is not common. Inkmoth Nexus ignores Repeal. Glacial Chasm is pretty good, but they usually run at least a few Crop Rotation as well as a single Wasteland. Taxing effects and Sphere effects are good, but not great, as Noble Hierarch provides early mana, and Inkmoth Nexus just does not care about most things.
One of the weaker points of the deck is that it runs few creatures that can actually kill you. I like to use Vesuva to copy Inkmoth Nexus if I can, because if it untaps I now have a blocker. Otherwise, you might as well Pithing Needle it as there's not too much else you can name, and naming the (again, singleton) Wasteland is probably too cute. Chasm is still good, as is Moment's Peace if you have it. Ugin, the Spirit Dragon is probably going to be strong here too (haven't tested him yet), but again, he can't stop Nexus.
Basically, you need to cover a couple of fronts at the same time while ending up with a Primeval Titan on the board somehow. Most of their counterspells are soft counters, although they do run at least a few Force of Will. Like I said, it's not a great matchup and you need to cover a few fronts at the same time.
Yes, you probably need Candelabra if you're running a Cloudpost deck.
Appreciate the replies, yes infect is more uncommon. I run into maverick at least twice a week though and that is MUCH more of a problem for me... any insight on that?
I'd agree with everything but Ugin. Unfortunately him being very sorcery-speed and a late game card I think he is too slow. Elephant Grass or Propoganda, if you have it, is also excellent against Infect.
Played around with Rock Lee's new list. It feels pretty solid, but I still have reservations about Gitaxian Probe. It might speak more to me as a player, but I think I want something else there, whether it be a reactive piece, something like Mystic Remora or even just a different cantrip like Ponder. Regardless, it's probably pretty close to the 75 I'll run at SCG Indianapolis this weekend.
Yes, you probably need Candelabra if you're running a Cloudpost deck.
I usually feel maverick is a good matchup for me. Crop Rotation, Pithing Needles and Show and Tell all make this matchup really affordable. When casting Needle, always name Wasteland, even if you find a second copy. Don't be tempted to name KotR because they may find their wastelands off the top of the deck anyway. Running Bojuka Bog helps too, if a Primeval Titan hits the battlefield, consider nerfing Kotr since they are the main source of damage, while you can endure multiple attacks from their Thalia/Qasali/whatever even without a Glacial Chasm in play or a Moment's Peace in hand. Kozilek is not so good, it will probably never have a chance to attack or to block because of StP or Karakas and their ways to tutor it, Ulamog is better because may nuke Karakas while still on stack or may kill their main offender. An early Tabernacle slows them a lot, especially if backed by Crop or Needle. Remember to bring counterspells post sb if you fear they'll bring devastating spells like Armageddon or Cataclysm (as they should have in their sb to face Miracles). Hope this helps
So I went to my LGS for the weekly and we had no idea this card existed, then we saw it was an instant! :-D
I played 2 in my SB and it seems like a solid proactive answer to just about any combo deck. The key being that you need the mana to make it worthwhile. The fact that it's instant speed makes it have huge blowout potential. It feels like a vendillion clique that is a lot easier to cast.
I did cast in against legacy splinter twin (yeah really!?!) and nabbed a combo peace when they tapped out. Unfortunately, it wasn't enough.
Yeah, Twin cards are a bit on the higher end of the CMC spectrum. Glimmer is mostly against combo decks with important 1-2cmc spells. If you get to the point where you can safely hold up glimmer for 4-5+ and a counterspell you'll likely be winning anyhow. Then again, my list has 6 needle effects so I don't know if I'd even bring in Glimmer to avoid over sideboarding against a theoretical Twin opponent. I suppose you could also play it against BUG decks yo try and strip Lilianas from their hand before jamming a Titan as well.
I believe Rock Lee has tried Glimmer in the past and I'm unsure of his experiences with it off the top of my head. I'm sure a thread search would turn that up.
Tested the crop-less builds and found them lacking in ability to transition from early-mid to late game. Was very easy to get buried in advantage or pitter out if you didn't find Ugin, Spirit Dragon. Tested with what variable i was willing to drop to incorporate Ancient Stirrings, which was positively beast, and came up with this list after quite a bit of testing.
This is probably my first "solid" list post-TC bannings.
// Lands
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
1 [AVR] Cavern of Souls
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [LG] Karakas
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
2 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
4 [R] Tropical Island
1 [US] Forest (3)
1 [CHK] Island (1)
// Creatures
4 [M12] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [SOM] Wurmcoil Engine
// Spells
4 [MM] Brainstorm
2 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
2 [US] Show and Tell
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
2 [FRF] Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
4 [ROE] Ancient Stirrings
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [UL] Crop Rotation
// Sideboard
SB: 3 [JGC] Flusterstorm
SB: 3 [NPH] Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 [THS] Swan Song
SB: 1 [TSP] Wipe Away
SB: 2 [B] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [FD] Engineered Explosives
SB: 2 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
The other lists were good, but I feel that this one can take on anyone with proper play.
Have to pick up some Ugin so can test. Hopefully they will drop in price some.
@winglerw28
Interesting list. Dunno if I like no Sensei's Top but Ponder does help find what you need and increase your blue count. Don't really like Flusterstorm with out top to float it on top to fight discard.
I remember Venarian Glimmer from Time Spiral Standard. Was quite good then.
@PilotChick
Maverick is pretty annoying but I haven't played it much. I see more Death and Taxes in my area which is beatable.
Elephant Grass slows them down.
Moment's Peace is decent at buying time if they do not have Deathrite Shaman.
Pithing Needle is essential to name Wasteland since they can fetch them with Knight.
Infect can be pretty scary because of the possibility of a turn 2 kill but most of the time they don't have it and you can interact.
Crop Rotation for Glacial Chasm buys you plenty of time cause you can afford to pay more life as long as they don't get their one wasteland.
Engineered Explosives is great for removing their 1 and 2 mana creatures.
Force of Will is actually pretty good since they don't have that many threats and if you counter one they might have to dig for another buying you time.
Moment's Peace really helps this match up blanking two combat phases.
Pithing Needle on Inkmoth Nexus is great.
Repeal on their creature buys you time.
@Rock Lee
Looks Solid but why Revoker instead of Needle? Is Storm that much of an issue? Do not like no way to fight Wasteland. Also why no Repeal?
I am much more fond of this list than some of your other recent lists and agree on all of the points you make here. My only fear is that Revoker is a more fragile needle effect and therefore less powerful against Stonefoge Mystic and Wasteland decks.
I've always felt that Repeal was at odds with the general game plan of the deck and too reactive a card. Unfortunately, blue and green lack solid non-artifact removal spells. I've sometimes wanted to try Propaganda in that spot but it is too cute and loses to red blasts and decay.
He does use Crop Rotation still, so that is an answer to Wasteland. The deck isn't without protection, but I haven't tested this list yet to determine if I'd want more.
As for Flusterstorm without top, FS is powerful against many non-storm decks and paired with Venarian Glimmer bypasses some of the problems against discard by increasing your spell diversity.
UPDATE: Grammar is hard. Thanks, Zotmaster.
Before backtracking the thread, has a GR version has been discussed in the past with Punishing Fire/Pyroclasm? Kinda like modern GR UrzaTron, but with Cloudpost and Legacy tools.
Kagu-Tsuchi カグツチ (Jund NicFit)
Rhino's Abbondanza (Junk NicFit)
4c Aggro Loam
A couple pages back there is a GR list of Rock Lee's that uses it. Also there are RUG lists that experimented with it a while ago in this thread someplace as well. The search feature for "Punishing Fire" and "Bonfire of the Damned" should turn up some results.
Went undefeated tonight with this list at weekly legacy. Played against the (r1)Mirror, (r2)Miracles, (r3)UWR stoneblade, and (r4)BUG Control /w Stifle and Shadow of Doubt.
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