[Deck] Jund

[Goosen]

crow_mw: Great post regarding R vs W. Just two cards you did not consider, Lingering Souls and Ancient Grudge. KotR need atleist 2 Wastelands and 1 Karakas to be good, so it needs more support cards then BBE. You can compare BBE against Lingering Souls instead, both mana intensive but very grindy cards.

[jjflipped]

@semioldguy: Why did you bring in extraction/extirpate against elves? As an elves player, I'd actually laugh if my opponent cast one of these. Also, how many removal spells did you have in the first couple games of rd 8? you can pretty easily combo with elves on t3.

[largebrandon]

At this point lists in this thread are identical to BGW Rock builds, playing Lightning Bolt over Swords to Plowshares and Bloodbraid Elf over Knight of the Reliquary. Plus Red Elemental Blasts instead of any white hate cards.

Playing Bolt over Swords can possibly have some merit. Bolt has much better synergy with Deathrite Shaman, than swords. Provided your target is in bolt range on top of the obvious lack of life gain the slain creature provides food to your Shaman. Most of all however Shaman makes bolt reach even more valuable - sudden 5 damage to player is nothing to sneeze at. Don't get me wrong, Swords is still a better cards, but I could live with bolt over it, especially since this is supplemented by other strong point removal and discard.

What sounds like a much worse idea for me, however, is playing Elf over KotR. Fetching a Karakas could offset lack of Swords to Plowshares, he will almost never be smaller than elf, not to mention that she is one full mana cheaper and often can be played on turn 2. Now, with more and more people playing maindeck graveyard hate and KotR anty-syngery with Shaman I see one might opt to find a better option here, but elf is a whacky choice and to the best of my knowledge the creature to fill that slot has not yet been printed. I wonder however if Huntmaster of the Fells would not be a better choice here? Sure a 2/2 wolf is not a Tarmagoyf but Huntmaster has a long term value. Than again, haste on Elf adds consistency to the deck goals. I just dislike how often he can fail and it is even worse post-board when you bring in some hate.

Before I get to my point here, I need to add that Red Elemental Blast is a great anti-blue card and adds a way to snipe Jace - something the traditional Rock can have trouble with with only two pulses. I am also surprised that so few people run Slaughter Games. This card can for instance remove Entreat the Angels, giving you a ton of time to kill Miracles (as mentioned above - you can deal with Jace fairly well too) and provided your discard delays combo long enough for you to cast it - this more often than not is a game too, sniping their main (sometimes only) win-con. Note that a big thing about Slaughter Games is the uncounterability, so while it is a huge investment your opponent can't easily stop you from resolving it.

Ok, so why all this rambling? This is to address the question 'why play this over rock'. In current iteration Jund is a more explosive variant of Rock with greater blue-hate. To gain it Jund sacrifices utility of swords and kotr and hopes just to race the opponent with burn and hasted elves in situations where white would fight for board control with mentioned cards. There is still more tuning to be done, but Jund can definitely be a viable alternative to bgw Rock.

1) You are correct, Bolt is better than Swords right now. Kills almost every creature that Swords would, with the added benefit of hitting the face and jace.
2) KotR is just awful right now in Legacy. There are Shamans running rampant, making knight rarely more than a 2/2. That's pretty significant. The fact that knight can get wasteland and karakas has no appeal for a BGx deck.
3) BBE is our Jace. It is a four mana spell that gives us card advantage and has an immediate impact on the board. The theme of the deck is aggro-control, so we want the card advantage whilst also killing them asap.
4) Slaughter games is an option, sure. However, I would never bring slaughter games against any deck with the intent to name jace. We have one mana spells that kill jace. Whilst Entreat CAN be an issue, it doesn't have to be. By the time they can entreat, they're probably at a low life in which you can burn them out with spells or shaman. Further, some sb cards help, like deed.
5) You play this over rock because it is just a better deck. BBE IS better than knight, bolt is better than swords, and the gameplan is miles better.

[soiber2000]

Just a quick note, that it is quite obvious but I realized that not everybody knows. The +2 on Jace is a cost, and you won't kill it with bolt in response.

As simple as it sounds, i've seen Many missplays with loyalty counters.

[largebrandon]

Just a quick note, that it is quite obvious but I realized that not everybody knows. The +2 on Jace is a cost, and you won't kill it with bolt in response.

As simple as it sounds, i've seen Many missplays with loyalty counters.

Yes, I do know and realize this. If they brainstorm with Jace, then you can bolt it. If they +2 it, you're still in great shape, bc they haven't done anything on the board.

[soiber2000]

Yes, I do know and realize this. If they brainstorm with Jace, then you can bolt it. If they +2 it, you're still in great shape, bc they haven't done anything on the board.

Yes, that's true. I was talking in general, maybe I should have said it, not for you

[Goosen]

1) You are correct, Bolt is better than Swords right now. Kills almost every creature that Swords would, with the added benefit of hitting the face and jace.
2) KotR is just awful right now in Legacy. There are Shamans running rampant, making knight rarely more than a 2/2. That's pretty significant. The fact that knight can get wasteland and karakas has no appeal for a BGx deck.

1. Not so sure. Sword still kills Tarmogoyf, KotR, Tombstalker, Batterskull token and so on. I think Sword is better on is own but in a deck that has Arupt Decay aswell, Lightning Bolt seems better.
2. Awful!? Sure Shaman is a great card, I love playing it. But is not even near to make KotH awful. A KotH can and most of the times put two lands in the graveyard and a Shaman remove just one. + the other fetches that are played. And alot of times the Shaman gets killed aswell or maybe not even draw one. And all decks dont even play Shaman. So in total maybe KotH have lost 5% in value, but its still one of the top dogs. In my book its still the best one. But that dasent mean its a great fit in all decks.

[lordofthepit]

1) You are correct, Bolt is better than Swords right now. Kills almost every creature that Swords would, with the added benefit of hitting the face and jace.
2) KotR is just awful right now in Legacy. There are Shamans running rampant, making knight rarely more than a 2/2. That's pretty significant. The fact that knight can get wasteland and karakas has no appeal for a BGx deck.
3) BBE is our Jace. It is a four mana spell that gives us card advantage and has an immediate impact on the board. The theme of the deck is aggro-control, so we want the card advantage whilst also killing them asap.
4) Slaughter games is an option, sure. However, I would never bring slaughter games against any deck with the intent to name jace. We have one mana spells that kill jace. Whilst Entreat CAN be an issue, it doesn't have to be. By the time they can entreat, they're probably at a low life in which you can burn them out with spells or shaman. Further, some sb cards help, like deed.
5) You play this over rock because it is just a better deck. BBE IS better than knight, bolt is better than swords, and the gameplan is miles better.

I don't disagree with most of what you said, but Knight is arguably still the best creature in Legacy (Vendilion Clique and maybe Noble Hierarch are the only others I'd consider). Granted, Maverick is much weaker now, but Knight is still a powerhouse.

If I'm playing Jund against Maverick, Junk, Bant, or Zoo, I save all my Abrupt Decays for Knight. It's the only creature that absolutely dominates the board when it hits.

[zulander]

Here's my proposed list:

Mana: 22
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Mountain
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Verdant Catacombs
3 Bloodstained Mire
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
1 Taiga
3 Wasteland

Creatures: 18
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Dark Confidant
4 Bloodbraid Elf

Disruption: 15
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
1 Liliana of the Veil

Other: 4
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte

Board:
2 Dismember
3 Pyroblast
3 Surgical Extraction
2 Forked Bolt
2 Engineered Plague
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 Maelstrom Pulse

(board is still up in the air)

This list runs a total of 14 ways of generating card advantage (bob/BBE/Hymn/Sylvan/liliana) as well as Jitte. I don't know if I like the Liliana or Thoughtseize there more. I want more turn 1 plays other than Shaman, and I don't know if liliana is just that great since most decks you want to -2 will have more than one creature by turn 4.

I also am unimpressed with 3 wasteland. I think 2 is fine as you want to be able to stop stupid maze of ith or any other lands, but that's about it. It's not much of a mana-denial deck so I feel like it's just being crammed in there. Jitte on the other hand I feel is great. Playing a turn 3 BBE into jitte is game breaking. While it doesn't occur often it's still a play that could be there. I feel that non-blue decks want as many solid ways of generating card advantage as possible, and that jitte is semi-card advantage.

[mishima_kazuya]

Since I had free entry into the Philadelphia Legacy Series Championship #2 from a top 8 with Stoneblade in a previous Phily Legacy Series event, I decided to play a fun deck. Keep in my mind I have not played Jund in about 2 years since it was legal in Standard. And I have not played a BGx Rock deck since I started playing Stoneforge Mystic control decks during Mental Misstep Legacy....so prepare for lots of bad plays.


1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Mountain
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Treetop Village

4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf

1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Sylvan Library

SB:
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Dread of Night
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Duress
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pernicious Deed

Round 1: Rest in Peace Counterbalance
Crushed the match up easily. It was close game 2 when he was one mana short of comboing out before my Sylvan Library found an Abrupt Decay for his Rest in Peace

Round 2: RUG Delver
I lost game 1 when he assembled triple Delver and Mongoose early. I screwed up fetching my mana trying to play around Wasteland, but it did not matter as I was not beating 3 flying 3/2s.
I fetched my basics aggresively and won games 2 and 3 while he was threat light.

Round 3: Goblins
My play got very bad from a lack of practice and familiarity. I kept a 5 land, bolt, Abrupt Decay hand and I almost got there when I drew a Tarmogoyf on turn 2. But he Ringleadered into 4 Goblins and I had no shot when my hand ran out of business.
I lost game 2 when we both had ended emtpy boards. I had 4 lands, one of which was a Treetop Village and all he was a Cavern of Souls and an Aether Vial on 2. I could play Bloodbraid Elf or Deathrite Shaman, but I just rushed through the turn and slamed my Bloodbraid Elf which hit a Lightning Bolt and at that point I just I had to attack. Correct play was to play Deathrite Shaman, leave Treetop Village up to block and then Bloodbraid Elf next turn when he finally vials in a creature.

Round 4: BUG Delver
Game 1 came down to a topdeck battle between our discard and he ended up with an uncontested Delver.
Game 2 the game went long which was fine with me and I got him on inevitability with Bloodbraids and Lilianas.
Game 3: I was short on mana and we both had one Deathrite Shaman, but he had a Mishra's Factory (mana seemed terrible on his deck). My position was 3 lands, Deathrite on board and Thoughtseize, Maelstorm PUlse and Bloodbraid in my hand. Instead of casting my Thoughtseize, then using Shaman at the end of his turn to force him to use his; I played Maelstrom Pulse and we all know how that ends...

Round 5: Esperblade
Since only 33 people showed up, a few x-2s can make it in the top 8, so I keep playing.
My opponent mulliganed both games and Jund did what it did best, crush U/x control decks.

Round 6: UWr MiracleBlade
He missed his 4th land drop game 1 while I ran him over with green dudues.
I mulligan game 2 and resolve Sylvan Library to bury him with cards. It got a little close since I played a litle too aggressively into his Terminus, but If I have a Library I can afford to walk into his sweepers since I don't want to give him more time.

I sneak in as 8th place at 4-2 and I get paired against mono red burn, with a decent pilot behind it.

Top 8: Burn
Game 1He topdecks lethal burn before I can finish him off with a pair of Tarmogoyfs.
Game 2 I played very bad...again. He has 0 cards in hand and 2 lands in play. I untap with Deathrite Shaman, 3 lands, no creatures in both graveyards, and my hand is 2 Bloodbraid Elf, 1 Liliana, 1 Deathrite Shaman. I realize that my way to win is to use Liliana to discard Bloodbraid Elfs so that I can gain life. I play Liliana, discard my Bloodbraid Elf and pass turn since I wanted a blocker in case he drew a Goblin Guide. I failed to realize that I could exile a land to cast my other Shaman and gain 4 life instead of 2 next turn. I obviously lose to a burn spell before I can go from 3 to 5.

Lessons:
-Bloodbraid Elf requires discipline and it should rarely EVER be casted if you have no removal targets.
-I need to pay attention to what Deathrite Shaman can do.

Notes:
- I played poorly in the tournament, but I think that if I had more time to practice with the deck I could have won the whole thing.
- The 3 REBS are overkill and one of them should probably be a 2nd Sylvan Library since you bring it in almost all of your fair deck match-ups.
- Engineered Explosives might actually be better than Deed in some match ups(Counterbalance variants mostly). It sucks to Bloodbraid into EE, but it still gets rid of their EE's or it eats their Angel tokens (my UWr miracles opponent tapped out to play EE on 2 and I blew my own EE on 0 to save my Library and Tarmogoyf)
- As long as counterbalance and Stoneblade control decks remain as popular as they are now, Jund is a very good choice. You are still a Rock deck in that you can still draw the wrong half of your deck and just get rolled by linear aggro strategies(Affinity) or combo decks, so keep that in mind.
-23 lands is good as I found myself a little land light sometimes, but not low enough to not cast spells.

[toor]

Since I had free entry into the Philadelphia Legacy Series Championship #2 from a top 8 with Stoneblade in a previous Phily Legacy Series event, I decided to play a fun deck. Keep in my mind I have not played Jund in about 2 years since it was legal in Standard. And I have not played a BGx Rock deck since I started playing Stoneforge Mystic control decks during Mental Misstep Legacy....so prepare for lots of bad plays.


1 Swamp
1 Forest
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Mountain
3 Wooded Foothills
3 Badlands
3 Bayou
1 Taiga
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Treetop Village

4 Bloodbraid Elf
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Tarmogoyf

1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Umezawa's Jitte
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
2 Liliana of the Veil
4 Lightning Bolt
1 Sylvan Library

SB:
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Dread of Night
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Duress
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Pernicious Deed

Nice list.

[mishima_kazuya]

Nice list.

Not sure if being sincere or being Lucas sarcastic...









Also, thanks to Lucas for giving me the inspiration to troll a Legacy tournament with a Modern deck along with some changes from Kenny Mayer's list.

[zulander]

What are people's boarding strategies? I run only 4 hymn main for discard, and wanted some boarding options for storm combo matchups.

22 lands (no waste)

Creatures: 18
4 Deathrite
4 Bob
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Scavenging Ooze
4 Bloodbraid Elf

Disruption: 16
4 Bolt
4 Hymn
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Go for the Throat
2 Liliana of the Veil

Other: 4
2 Sylvan Library
2 Umezawa's Jitte


Some board ideas:
Surgical Extraction
Duress/Thoughtseize
Sulfur Elemental (lolwatsuplingeringsouls)
Golgari Charm
Krosan Grip
Ancient Grudge
Forked Bolt
Maelstrom Pulse


I'm not sure about sweepers like Deed/EE, how have people liked them? What are you boarding them in for? Enchantress?

[semioldguy]

@semioldguy: Why did you bring in extraction/extirpate against elves? As an elves player, I'd actually laugh if my opponent cast one of these. Also, how many removal spells did you have in the first couple games of rd 8? you can pretty easily combo with elves on t3.

With most other decks I would not bring in extractions against elves, but with the high amount of discard, I really think it helps the match-up. With most combo decks, ripping their hand apart usually leaves them pretty dead to your creatures. However, elves has plenty of blockers to buy time to try to build up to another combo potential, so it's more difficult to kill them quickly after initially disrupting them. Neutering their ability to go off on a future turn is actually pretty relevant with Jund as the elves deck generally can't outdo you otherwise. As an elves player, would you expect to regularly beat Jund if you can't draw into a Glimpse?

[zulander]

Here's the list I ran this week

Mana: 22
10 fetches
3 Bayou
3 Badlands
1 Taiga
1 Twilight Mire
3 Basics
1 Treetop Village

Creatures: 19
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Bloodbraid Elf
2 Scavenging Ooze
1 Grim Lavamancer

Disruption: 15
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Hymn to Taurach
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Liliana
1 Go for the Throat

Other: 4
2 Sylvan Library
2 Jitte

Board: 15
4 Thoughtseize
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Engineered Plague
2 Choke
2 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Krosan Grip


Round 1: ANT
Game 1: He kills himself off of Ad Nauseam lol
Game 2: Tendrils me for lethal
Game 3: I open with thoughtseize seeing 2x Ponder, Burning Wish, Duress, land + petal. I had a surgical in my hand and decide to take wish and surgical in response to his duress. Apparently taking ponder was the right call? He ends up storming off in 2/3 turns later.

Round 2: BUG Cascade
Game 1: I get some fast beats and an active Jitte.
Game 2: I kept a bad hand, almost crawled back into it but he got there.
Game 3: I was able to get multiple BBE's, Sylvan, Goyf, and Jitte.
Cascade is a thing. Most BUG Decks don't give me such a hard time, but shardless agent + ancient visions + jace kept him in the card advantage game which usually doesn't happen.

Round 3: Goblins
Game 1: Early jitte = gg, he ends up destroying it but it was too late.
Game 2: Ooze + 3x Goyf with Hymn taking his perish = gg.

Round 4: Dredge
Game 1: He wins, absurd hand.
Game 2: I kept a slow hand because it had Engineered Plague. Bad idea. Should have mulled to surgical.

I enjoyed the deck but think it needs more early game action. I'm thinking of -2 Liliana, -1 Go for the Throat/Grim Lavamancer, +4 Thoughtseize? Liliana is great to cascade into, but not as game breaking as other planeswalkers are. Those 4 slots are the slots up for debate though, let me know if anyone else has some ideas. I also feel like the deck may need more board presence as goyf is the only real beater (and a ramped up Ooze), but I'm not sure what could fit in that slot. I think the board is pretty solid, only wished I had crypts against dredge but it is what it is.

[largebrandon]

Looks like 2 Jund decks in the Top 8 of Grand Prix Denver piloted by Josh Ravtiz and Pat Cox! Glad to see the deck making quite the showing.

[mishima_kazuya]

Looks like 2 Jund decks in the Top 8 of Grand Prix Denver piloted by Josh Ravtiz and Pat Cox! Glad to see the deck making quite the showing.

Its the BGx deck that beats the other BGx decks.

[bruizar]

Domri Rade is a dude you can cascade into. also, for those saying DRS kills kotr, you can fetch arena and kill them, problem solved. domri Rade also fights. Domri Rade hasn't received much love yet, but I think the card will see play. It combines very well with Sylvan Library or Sensei's Divining Top. Turn 2 Sylvan Library, turn 3 Stack library, Domri Rade, Draw a card seems great. The fight ability is a little bit harder to pull of than Liliana, but being able to choose your target is a lot better than an edict.

[Barook]

Domri Rade is a dude you can cascade into. also, for those saying DRS kills kotr, you can fetch arena and kill them, problem solved. domri Rade also fights. Domri Rade hasn't received much love yet, but I think the card will see play. It combines very well with Sylvan Library or Sensei's Divining Top. Turn 2 Sylvan Library, turn 3 Stack library, Domri Rade, Draw a card seems great. The fight ability is a little bit harder to pull of than Liliana, but being able to choose your target is a lot better than an edict.

Volrath's Stronghold seems even better, considering it guarantees a 100% chance to draw a critter as long as there is something in the yard.

Fighting also seems like a lesser problem with an early Goyf.

[crow_mw]

Domri Rade is a dude you can cascade into. also, for those saying DRS kills kotr, you can fetch arena and kill them, problem solved. domri Rade also fights. Domri Rade hasn't received much love yet, but I think the card will see play. It combines very well with Sylvan Library or Sensei's Divining Top. Turn 2 Sylvan Library, turn 3 Stack library, Domri Rade, Draw a card seems great. The fight ability is a little bit harder to pull of than Liliana, but being able to choose your target is a lot better than an edict.

The biggest issue with Domri Rade is that he doesn't do anything on his own. Even if he had great interaction with top/library, that wouldn't matter all that much, as there are two-card combos that straight up win games. In a Rock/Jund shell at best 1/3 of your deck is creatures, likely less. If at the very least his first ability would allow you to ding for creatures faster, maybe it could be considered. But as it stands now on his own he has less than 33% to give you CA, that might be improved by other cards you run.

Forcing creature combat is sweet, but not at -2 from a 3-loyality plainswalker with no other ability to protect himself.

Needless to say he is by miles inferior to his direct competitor - Liliana. Liliana kills Emrakuls, Progenituses (sp?) and pro-everything sword holders, when occasionally Domri Rade gets to snipe a Maverick hate bear or some tribal lord. On top of that of course she drills enemy hands and gives us almost certain CA in our worst matchups, where Domri just sits with his 'if you draw a creature draw an extra card'.

Maybe he can work in some creature heavy list but such a deck would have a totally different build philosophy than the one discussed in this thread.