Is Dredge still viable in legacy?

**NecroYawgmoth** · 12-25-2012 03:07 AM

No seriously...

I am asking myself how viable Dredge / Manaless Dredge or whatever variants are, and how viable they will be in the future.

Dredge-Hate is in at least 50% of the maindecks nowadays. [I am talking about high and experienced metas, not just small random events]

For example:
-Maverick plays ~2 Oozes.
-UW Decks play RiP main.
-BUG Decks play Deathrite Shaman main [and I am sure more decks will follow this trend]. DR-Shaman is a VERY strong card.

Postboard it doesn't get better because we have to fight with even more hatecards.

More examples:
-U-Decks run Grafdiggers cuz they woke up and understood that Cage & counterprotection is almost everytime GG.
-Fast decks like combo also run Cage because they only need to delay us 1-2 turns.
-Even Goblins start to play RiP in their board, because the card is SO strong.

We don't live in 2011 anymore. People "learned" how to play against dredge. They know that they can nuke our Bridges and have a lot more understanding in the archetype. WotC also printed lots of evil cards against us.

It's also not like that Dredge players are fighting "soft" hate like Crypt, Leylines and Surgicals anymore. The hate is so hard nowadays that Dredge seems a very specific metadeck more than ever before. All the experienced Dredge players I know, including myself [except for 1 person] stopped playing the deck, because it seems impossible to win with it these days.

Is it even worth to play Dredge anymore, or does it get pushed out of legacy?

discuss

**feline** · 12-25-2012 03:50 AM

**Nickm** · 12-25-2012 03:58 AM

As a long time Dredge player I concur with your conclusion that Dredge is in perhaps the worst meta position ever. My love for the deck blinded me from this for some time and my results suffered because of it. I can see the deck coming back some day as perhaps a meta/gamble deck, when everyone stops running sideboard hate. For the time being however I would consider it effectively dead.

Even with the hate out there for it, the deck is still performing, all these are since the start of RTR Legacy.

This is true, but I think it's very safe to say that the explosion of Deathrite Shaman decks is bad for the deck and diminished it's results.

**Erdvermampfa** · 12-25-2012 11:22 AM

No, it's not and to be honest, it has actually never been.

**Que** · 12-25-2012 11:52 AM

Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa

and to be honest, it has actually never been.

Dredge seems to still be misunderstood ;_;

And to answer the question. It probably is a bad time, however, if people are going to be relying on md Shaman as their primary grave hate and cutting some back in the sb, doesn't sound too horrible. Shaman only activates once per turn and has to tap. I would be more scared of Ooze with green mana up and Maverick is losing its popularity (or so it looks). To shore up this shift in the meta one can look to start maindecking cards like Firestorm which can effectively answer the shaman and other pesky creatures while still keeping up with the game plan not to mention its an uncounterable discard outlet. Street Wraith will probably see some play as well. What I'm saying is that there should be more than enough fuel in your gy where the shaman wont be able to keep up. Also its nice that it actually can't eat Bridges unlike Ooze.

**SpikeyMikey** · 12-25-2012 12:08 PM

I think that the existence of Rest in Peace and Deathrite Shaman has made people complacent about Dredge. I think Dredge is actually in a fine spot right now and even went so far as to suggest it as a deck to play in Denver to someone the other night. Too many people have assumed that DRS and RIP have killed all the GY decks and have started cutting GY hate themselves. So you're well positioned against those people. Miracles is pretty rough (instant speed Terminus? RIP main? ouch!) but the BUG decks? I mean yeah, they have 4 DRS. So in 40% of the G1's, you *don't* autowin. You can still win, it's just more grindy. Which is what you generally did against decks that brought in tons of hate anyway, tried to grind them out.

**Zombie** · 12-25-2012 12:23 PM

In some way, I like the increase in maindeckable graveyard hate. I like it a lot. I played all kinds of random combo decks for years, until I realized the comboing off itself isn't that fun (some decks excepted, of course). The fun part is the fight to be able to. And most of all, that part is interesting for the opponent as well. If two decks don't interact, or the interactions are retarded (SnT, some hate pieces), there isn't much of a game. For there to be a game, there needs to be a common space that is being contested, and the maindeckable GY interactions are finally starting to add the graveyard to the list.

**Wilkin** · 12-25-2012 12:55 PM

I would say out the GY based decks, Dredge is still viable. With faithless looting and LED starts, you can still win turn 1 to turn 3...

Rest in Peace main is devastating but honestly, Scavenging Ooze and Deathrite, while awesome might be too slow some games. Also, a lot of players are skimping on sideboard hate because of those cards main and the fact that there are less GY dependant decks out there.

Dredge, IMHO is still viable. In a 41 legacy event at the GP toronto, Dredge won out since most people didn't pack that much hate for it. However, other decks like Reanimator, I really wouldn't play that right now because while Deathrite can be annoying against a Dredge player, it's GG vs Reanimator. The only way I would think of trying Reanimator is if I played a version with some sort of mana acceleration to try and play a fattie turn 1.

**cyberjar** · 12-25-2012 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by NecroYawgmoth

People "learned" how to play against dredge.

No

**catmint** · 12-25-2012 02:01 PM

I think dredge becomes more like storm in the sense of it is much harder to play it as a popular deck because there is so much "hate" out there, but as mentioned since dredge declines people consider it less in their deck design and competent & experienced pilots can win on any given day.

Dredge won't be a deck like Canadian, Stoneblade, Burn or Show&Tell which you can just pick up and feelyou have a fighting chance. And I think it is good this way. Before ooze, deathrite & RIP sb space was much smaller and a wider player base could win with dredge, but now it is more like a real commitment to the deck like you see it with storm players, who don't care about maindeck: Thalias, counterbalances, counterspells and discard.

I still hate to face a competent dredge player much more than a competent storm player

but it is necessary to keep as many different viable decks around. The less things you have to consider in deck design the more boring it is (like it was with MM).

**KobeBryan** · 12-25-2012 02:27 PM

There was a time when you needed 4-5 cards in board against GY

Now, you probably can get away with using 3.

I wouldn't completely neglect using gy hate though.

**Michael Keller** · 12-25-2012 03:15 PM

Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa

No, it's not and to be honest, it has actually never been.

This was amusing.

**Final Fortune** · 12-25-2012 04:12 PM

Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey

I think that the existence of Rest in Peace and Deathrite Shaman has made people complacent about Dredge. I think Dredge is actually in a fine spot right now and even went so far as to suggest it as a deck to play in Denver to someone the other night. Too many people have assumed that DRS and RIP have killed all the GY decks and have started cutting GY hate themselves. So you're well positioned against those people. Miracles is pretty rough (instant speed Terminus? RIP main? ouch!) but the BUG decks? I mean yeah, they have 4 DRS. So in 40% of the G1's, you *don't* autowin. You can still win, it's just more grindy. Which is what you generally did against decks that brought in tons of hate anyway, tried to grind them out.

I agree, the main difference is game 1 isn't an automatic win for Dredge in a BUG metagame, but other than not being able to face roll thru' game 1s the deck is still pretty viable, especially if players think they can cut SB hate and lean on MD hate for 3 games - Firsestorm pretty much crushes the fuck out of Deathrite Shaman and Scavenging Ooze. RIP is definitely a problem, but Miracles only plays a couple of copies of RIP if they play the RIP/Helm combo at all.

I think the real deck that got fucked out of existance is Reanimator, Deathrite Shaman just shat all over that deck.

**theBloody** · 12-25-2012 04:58 PM

Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa

No, it's not and to be honest, it has actually never been.

Buddy please...

**joemauer** · 12-25-2012 06:07 PM

@NecroYawgmoth:

I know on the other side of the Atlantic it has always been tougher to play dredge with dredge being more popular and players packing more hate there. Over here it seems like a fine time to play dredge.

Sure RiP maindeck sucks, but it seemed to have replace our other nightmare matchups: Reanimator and Maverick. Playing a deck with virtually 5-6 maindeck ways to get us(GSZ+Ooze) versus 2-3 maindecked in most RiP decks seems to be in our favor. I would rather play against any other combo deck over Reanimator with the exception of Belcher, and it appears other combo decks are more popular than Reanimator due to Deathright Shaman.

Like others have pointed out, Dredge appears to be on the decline and people come to tourneys with less preparation for it.

While the new hate is more varied, they are still either slow or narrow. The scariest hate to have to face is still Leyline of the Void and Ooze.

Also, players are stupid. Players will still keep awful hands that have one piece of hate because dredge is a bad deck that just folds to hate.

**Sloshthedark** · 12-25-2012 06:59 PM

sure it is when unexpected+decent player, also SB hate dropped a little bit and the deck is underplayed

**lordofthepit** · 12-25-2012 08:41 PM

Does Deathrite Shaman really count as hate any more so than Lightning Bolt or dozens of other cards? It seems only effective turn one on the play if your opponent is on a really slow dredge hand.

**Vandalize** · 12-25-2012 10:12 PM

Dredge will always be viable, in any given metagame. The deck doesn't interact with Magic as the other decks do. People are just in a Deathrite Shaman hype, and playing that card in every deck. Pretty much like it was with Stoneforge Mystic. I've almost seen people sharing lists with Deathrite Shaman in Solidarity threads. Just a Hype.

Dredge (LED versions) will ONLY care about Deathrite Shaman when it comes down turn 1 on the play. Otherwise, you just shit on their face, and play draw spells to get a minimum board position that lets you win (I'd say 5+ zombies in turn 1~2). BUG's Hymn to Tourach and permission is laughable. The only card I'd be afraid of is Pernicious Deed, as it can blow up your tokens good.

About Rest in Peace, it's indeed a strong card. But it does have a little problem that's called 2CMC. It's just too slow for LED Dredge variants (even on the play). I remember plenty of games when Merfolk was THE deck to beat. I could just combo out while they didn't have spare mana to activate Relic of Progenitus (which is a 2CMC hate as well).

Moreover, people with experience in the archtype can get away with slow lists (like Hollywood). That dude plays Manaless Dredge and rapes people without condoms.

**NecroYawgmoth** · 12-25-2012 11:50 PM

Originally Posted by Vandalize

Moreover, people with experience in the archtype can get away with slow lists (like Hollywood). That dude plays Manaless Dredge and rapes people without condoms.

While this is true, I can't see this happening with Manaless in the future when everybody is jumping on the Deathrite-train.

**Phoenix Ignition** · 12-26-2012 01:13 AM

NecroYawgmoth: Dredge, you're not aimin' to kill nobody with all that graveyard hate in this meta.

Dredge: No, Ma, not that. That ain't it. It's just, well, as long as I'm a linear deck anyways... maybe I can do somethin'... maybe I can find a way to beat someone, just scrounge around and maybe find out what it is that's wrong and see if they ain't somethin' that can be done about it. Thought out my losing sideboard all clear, Ma. I can't. Linear decks can't do enough to put up with this.

NecroYawgmoth: How am I gonna know about ya, Dredge? Why they could remove ya completely from magic and I'd never know. They could make ya an obsolete deck.

Dredge: Well, maybe it's like they says. A linear deck ain't got a place in a format of its own, just little piece of a big subsection of the format, the one subsection that belongs to a lot of linear decks, then...

NY: Then what, Dredge?

Dredge: Then it don't matter. I'll be all around in the dark - I'll be everywhere. Wherever you can look - wherever there's a metagame that has grown complacent, so unprepared to fight graveyards, I'll be there. Wherever decks are trying to grind out their small win percentages against other decks through sideboard slots, I'll be there. I'll be in the way decks stop playing at least 4 sideboard cards against graveyards, be in the way people forget about how to play against this deck, and when the metagame has thought I'm completely dead and gone - I'll be there, too.

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