Is Dredge still viable in legacy?

[Lord Seth]

NecroYawgmoth: Dredge, you're not aimin' to kill nobody with all that graveyard hate in this meta.

Dredge: No, Ma, not that. That ain't it. It's just, well, as long as I'm a linear deck anyways... maybe I can do somethin'... maybe I can find a way to beat someone, just scrounge around and maybe find out what it is that's wrong and see if they ain't somethin' that can be done about it. Thought out my losing sideboard all clear, Ma. I can't. Linear decks can't do enough to put up with this.

NecroYawgmoth: How am I gonna know about ya, Dredge? Why they could remove ya completely from magic and I'd never know. They could make ya an obsolete deck.

Dredge: Well, maybe it's like they says. A linear deck ain't got a place in a format of its own, just little piece of a big subsection of the format, the one subsection that belongs to a lot of linear decks, then...

NY: Then what, Dredge?

Dredge: Then it don't matter. I'll be all around in the dark - I'll be everywhere. Wherever you can look - wherever there's a metagame that has grown complacent, so unprepared to fight graveyards, I'll be there. Wherever decks are trying to grind out their small win percentages against other decks through sideboard slots, I'll be there. I'll be in the way decks stop playing at least 4 sideboard cards against graveyards, be in the way people forget about how to play against this deck, and when the metagame has thought I'm completely dead and gone - I'll be there, too.

Hahahahaha.

[Vacrix]

Dredge is running into the same problem that TES/ANT did with Maverick.. only TES and ANT are much better equipped to deal with Thalia and GSZ--> Teeg than Dredge is to deal with DRS or RIP.. mostly because storm plays cantrips. Before Thalia, the matchup was basically a bye. Now, they have a solid maindeck way to really slow you down and sometimes steal a win (not including the advent of GSZ --> Teeg).. which happens more often if they run into their sideboard hate post-Thalia. And yet, UBx storm has remained a strong archetype. Dredge was on the same level for a while.. but unlike ANT players, the people who tend to continue playing Dredge actually know how to play magic.. that or they're just masochists. People playing ANT just press the start button.. recieve bacon.

In the long run, I see Dredge remaining a great choice for particular metagame shifts, but it IS losing power. The cards that fuck with Dredges graveyard are getting maindecked now; its different than being a great Dredge player and using your sideboard to play around the hate. Now you have to deal with maindeck answers AND sideboard answers.

The thing is.. even if the opponent is light on actual board material for Dredge, it doesn't matter if he mulligans into Land + DRS. My friend plays BUG control and he does that every time to beat Dredge. Sometimes Chain of Vapor and Firestorm is not enough.

[Gocho]

LED Dredge plays cantrips too. Most lists play 14 cantrips, and they help to find hate.

[Vacrix]

Those cantrips don't have the same kind of function as they do in storm. In Dredge, they are a cog in the engine to produce multiple Dredges in a single turn as well as being set up pieces that get Dredgers into the yard; in TES/ANT, the cantrips help you set up and play around hate/permission/disruption. Brainstorm and Ponder are far better for this purpose. For example, Breakthrough, Careful Study, Faithless Looting... might find you a Chain of Vapor, Firestorm, Nature's Claim, Ray of Revelation, but then what? You need a graveyard too to go off and the cantrips produce card disadvantage. Its possible that the card disadvantage is irrelevant because the cards will all hit the yard... but against most Dredge hate, the cards that hit the yard become lost resources to the hate piece. This doesn't happen in storm. You sit on your resources until you get rid of the blockade, then you go off. Dredge doesn't always have that luxury if its going to use its card-disadvantage-cantrips to find answers to hate.

[Michael Keller]

Even with cards like Rest in Peace and Deathrite Shaman, Dredge will continue to be a viable choice. There are unfortunately too many incompetent pilots for the deck to make noise, and it will continue to be what keeps the deck's numbers down.

There are so many factors that go into making a deck work, and Dredge is no different. It's success is measured greatly upon it's failures...because people hate Dredge.

Which is why I love it.

[Beatusnox]

Even with cards like Rest in Peace and Deathrite Shaman, Dredge will continue to be a viable choice. There are unfortunately too many incompetent pilots for the deck to make noise, and it will continue to be what keeps the deck's numbers down.

There are so many factors that go into making a deck work, and Dredge is no different. It's success is measured greatly upon it's failures...because people hate Dredge.

Which is why I love it.

Definitely Agree with Hollywood here, was at a dual lands tournament recently and went 2-2 drop after punting two rounds due to no sleep(seriously 1 hour of sleep before a huge Legacy tournament probably a bad idea). If it wasn't for me punting I would have been at least 3-x or 4-x and been able to draw my way to top 8. Hate exists, it has always existed. Deathrite stops a slow hand, but if you can go off turn 1 or 2 with multiple dredgers he doesn't really do too much. RiP as a maindeck card while frustrating is not unbeatable, just annoying.

Sure the deck has lost some of its guaranteed game 1 wins, but so what, those who love playing the deck will continue, and those who hate the deck will continue to pray to either not be matched against it, or will continue to either downplay it/complain about it.

[Ellomdian]

The amount of self-righteous bile flying around is nauseating... Dredge is a linear combo deck, no different in concept than Tide, AnT, Doomsday, or SnT. It abuses a particular vector in an effort to create a significant enough advantage to win games.

Having said that, I feel like the impact of DRS on Dredge may be a mite overstated, and that continues to be the most prevalent form of interaction decks will have G1 against dredge. I feel like dedicated dredge hate is on it's way out for the time being, and that opens up an opportunity to play Dredge. I have said a few times that I feel that Denver will be a healthy environment for combo - people are cutting too much permission and disruption to do cute crap, and it's going to bite when the fundamental turn drops back down.

TL;DR - Play dredge in mature Meta's if you want to.

[Mr. Froggy]

Those cantrips don't have the same kind of function as they do in storm. In Dredge, they are a cog in the engine to produce multiple Dredges in a single turn as well as being set up pieces that get Dredgers into the yard; in TES/ANT, the cantrips help you set up and play around hate/permission/disruption. Brainstorm and Ponder are far better for this purpose. For example, Breakthrough, Careful Study, Faithless Looting... might find you a Chain of Vapor, Firestorm, Nature's Claim, Ray of Revelation, but then what? You need a graveyard too to go off and the cantrips produce card disadvantage. Its possible that the card disadvantage is irrelevant because the cards will all hit the yard... but against most Dredge hate, the cards that hit the yard become lost resources to the hate piece. This doesn't happen in storm. You sit on your resources until you get rid of the blockade, then you go off. Dredge doesn't always have that luxury if its going to use its card-disadvantage-cantrips to find answers to hate.

In games 2/3 you can use your cantrips to find the hate, and hold off on your dredging. Once the path is clear, then you go off or what-not.

[Vacrix]

But what if your cantrip is Breakthrough? What then? You won't be sitting on resources in your hand. Even if you only hit Careful Studies and Faithless Looting, you lose resources to the graveyard hate.. and these cantrips are card disadvantage so you'll naturally have fewer resources when trying to go off.

I'm not saying it can't be done. Rather, it can be done and good Dredge players know how to work it out. However its much more difficult to do than in decks like ANT or TES because their cantrips are way better.. and its become increasingly more difficult when Dredge players are running into maindeck hate AND sideboard hate.

[Bobmans]

I guess it still is, considering the statistics:

#) Deck / Highest finish / # of top 16's Oct-1st-2012-to-Dec-31st-2012
01) RUG 1st 2 times / 41 top 16s
02) Esperblade 1st 2 times / 20 top 16s
03) Miracle control 1st 1 time / 19 top 16s
04) BUG aggro 1st 1 time / 13 top 16s
05) BUG control 1st 2 times / 12 top 16s
06) Maverick Highest finish 2nd / 10 top 16s
07) ANT Highest finish 3rd / 9 top 16s
08) Dredge 1st 1 time / 8 top 16s
09) High Tide 1st 2 times / 7 top 16s
10) Omnitell Highest finish 3rd / 6 top 16s
11) UR delver 1st 1 times / 6 top 16s
12) Goblins Highest finish 4th / 6 top 16s
13) Reanimator Highest finish 5th / 6 top 16s
14) Merfolk Highest finish 3rd / 5 top 16s
15) UWstoneblade 1st 1 times / 5 top 16s
16) Belcher Highest finish 5th / 5 top 16s
17) Death and Taxes Highest finish 3rd / 4 top 16s
18) Enchantress Highest finish 6th / 4 top 16s
19) Jund Highest finish 11th / 4 top 16s
20) Sneak and Show 1st 1 time / 3 top 16s
21) Zombies Highest finish 2nd / 3 top 16s
22) Bant Highest finish 4th / 3 top 16s
23) Aggro Loam 1st 1 time / 2 top 16s
24) MUD Highest finish 2nd / 2 top 16s
25) 12 post Highest finish 2nd / 2 top 16s
26) Junk Highest finish 2nd / 2 top 16s
27) TES Highest finish 3rd / 2 top 16s
28) Elves Highest finish 5th / 2 top 16s
29) Stiflenaught Highest finish 5th / 2 top 16s
30) Deadguy Ale Highest finish 6th / 2 top 16s
31) Mono blue aggro Highest finish 6th / 2 top 16s
32) Zoo Highest finish 7th / 2 top 16s
33) Lands Highest finish 8th / 2 top 16s
34) Pox Highest finish 13th / 2 top 16s

[TraxDaMax]

While this is true, I can't see this happening with Manaless in the future when everybody is jumping on the Deathrite-train.

I think this isn't thought through correctly. Manaless has like 12 maindeck answers for DRS turn one.

[NecroYawgmoth]

4 Street Wraith, 4 Phantasmagorian and...? Contagion / Shoal won't help you much. You DDD a Dredger and won't regain priority before they can remove it. If you kill Shaman here you are left with 5 handcards.

[DragoFireheart]

You'd think all this graveyard hate would completely shut out Dredge, but it just keeps coming back.

[Michael Keller]

4 Street Wraith, 4 Phantasmagorian and...? Contagion / Shoal won't help you much. You DDD a Dredger and won't regain priority before they can remove it. If you kill Shaman here you are left with 5 handcards.

Here are the cards that combat a turn-one Shaman:

[4x] Phantasmagorian
[4x] Street Wraith
[3x] Contagion
[1x] Shoal

That's twelve cards and an 80.94% shot of opening the game with some sort of way to stop it before it goes active, with an 85.25% shot of drawing removal if you didn't have it in your opening seven. Your opponent runs four Shaman, with a 39.95% shot of opening the game with at least one. You have almost double the chance of being able to contend with it with your opening seven as opposed to your opponent actually opening the game with only one of theirs.

You would draw a card for your turn (giving you eight), putting you at six cards left after knocking one off by exiling another card with said removal. That's only two turns your opponent gets before having to find another out, which also in turns give you a chance to draw into more removal or a counter-effect like Street Wraith and Phantasmagorian. Shaman really is only good if an opponent opens with it and you don't have an answer.

As you can see, that's often not going to be the case. I beat Doug McKay - a Legacy specialist - in the Quarterfinals of a huge event in Elmira, NY after having to contend with two Shamans, a Surgical Extraction and a Thought Hemorrhage!

Shaman is the least of the deck's worries.

[NecroYawgmoth]

only two turns

...

Two turns in Legacy. I doubt I need to say more.

Legacy specialist - Thought Hemorrhage!

[Michael Keller]

Two turns in Legacy. I doubt I need to say more.

Any deck that is running Deathrite Shaman isn't beating you in two turns, unless you know something I don't.

And Doug is one of the finest Legacy rogue specialists in the world. Regardless, you can beat hate; it just takes practice.

[TraxDaMax]

Here are the cards that combat a turn-one Shaman:

[4x] Phantasmagorian
[4x] Street Wraith
[3x] Contagion
[1x] Shoal

That's twelve cards and an 80.94% shot of opening the game with some sort of way to stop it before it goes active, with an 85.25% shot of drawing removal if you didn't have it in your opening seven. Your opponent runs four Shaman, with a 39.95% shot of opening the game with at least one. You have almost double the chance of being able to contend with it with your opening seven as opposed to your opponent actually opening the game with only one of theirs.

I'd gladly timewalk myself here to get rid of their hope and faith in Deathrite Shaman. I mean, often decks that play shaman will have a turn two hymn normally. They can't play hymn against us. If not that, probably a tarmogoyf, which isn't scary at all to be frank.