Page 3 of 58 FirstFirst 12345671353 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 1143

Thread: Oops, All Spells! (Formerly The Rogue Hermit)

  1. #41

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Alchemist's Refuge vs Azami, Lady of Scrolls

    refuge is castable and lets you draw a card.

    azami, lady of scrolls lets you get around a swords to plowshare that would otherwise cost you the game. you can tap both azami and lab maniac in response. refuge will kill you if your opponent swords maniac in response.

    for that reason, i would assume 1 azami should be in the board.


    Why is Phantasmagorian being included in this deck? seems like cabal therapy is a lot more versatile, and with 1 bridge from below and 4 narcomebias you should be fine.

  2. #42
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
    catmint's Avatar
    Join Date

    Feb 2011
    Posts

    923

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Never played combo so suggestions might be stupid...

    1) Instead of Living Wish for creature (6 Mana) wouldn't it better to play maindeck charbelcher (7 mana). Also alternative to GY kill...

    2) instead of multiple cabal therapy, wouldnt Pact of Negation maineck be better since it is free and can hit also extraction, removal and whatever else might stop you? Also it seems like some black cards won't be needed in multiples so the 1st unmask looks better than the 2nd cabal therapy.

    3) Normal/Reactive sideboard cards (decay, red-blast, xantid swarm) like in combo where you have lands might not be playable - in general it feels you cannot side a lot. If people in G2 think their FoW or GY hate will save the day, is there a transformational SB possible which dodges this hate? (Empty the warrens, spanish inquisition stuff, multiple mini tendrils)
    Currently playing: Elves

  3. #43

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Talking to my friend who plays SI he is saying we need to run deathrite shaman so that we summoners pact for it and imprint it on our chrome moxen so that there are more initial black mana sources.

    I am going through sample hands of nudon's list and I have to agree.

  4. #44

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    So far I've been digging Manamorphose quite a bit in the deck. Turning Spirit Guides into black mana is awesome, and that it cycles is just gravy. I'm Also a big fan of running the 1 Belcher Main Deck, and putting 3 in the side. Still figuring out side board though. The one change I made to the list I posted is cutting the Phantasmagorian for the 3rd therapy, which I'm quite happy about. I'll update you all on how matches turn out after testing.

  5. #45

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    1) Instead of Living Wish for creature (6 Mana) wouldn't it better to play maindeck charbelcher (7 mana). Also alternative to GY kill...
    This sounds like a really good idea, since it'd free up SB space (i.e., SB Belchers being maindeck=+4 slots, and +1 slot from not having to SB the rogue), and gives you the full 8 Informers MD, and gives you a "plan B" in the main.

  6. #46

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    Never played combo so suggestions might be stupid...

    1) Instead of Living Wish for creature (6 Mana) wouldn't it better to play maindeck charbelcher (7 mana). Also alternative to GY kill...

    2) instead of multiple cabal therapy, wouldnt Pact of Negation maineck be better since it is free and can hit also extraction, removal and whatever else might stop you? Also it seems like some black cards won't be needed in multiples so the 1st unmask looks better than the 2nd cabal therapy.

    3) Normal/Reactive sideboard cards (decay, red-blast, xantid swarm) like in combo where you have lands might not be playable - in general it feels you cannot side a lot. If people in G2 think their FoW or GY hate will save the day, is there a transformational SB possible which dodges this hate? (Empty the warrens, spanish inquisition stuff, multiple mini tendrils)
    1. 1 mana makes a BIG difference in this deck since only dark ritual and LED generate more than 1 extra mana (unlikely to hit threshold with cabal ritual). Belcher can't be pitched to chrome mox, meaning it's dead in multiples. Also, belcher requires 4 mana up front before you can activate LED instead of 2 (very important). Belcher doesn't play well with summoner's pact either. Lastly, you don't need an alternate kill game 1. The only benefits I can think of are ~2 extra SB slots and it's colorless (fairly irrelevant since you have so many green sources and wild cantor/manamorphose).
    2. The cabal therapy allows you to sac narcomoebas, tokens from bridge, and/or balustrade spy to get combo cards out of your hand. It doubles as protection and can be pitched to chrome mox for black mana or unmask. I can see pact of negation being ok but not worth it for me considering it might stop you from getting hellbent for tutor and you don't need blue mana.
    3. Don't know but things I can think of are empty the warrens, belcher, and dare I say even hive mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by alekill View Post
    Talking to my friend who plays SI he is saying we need to run deathrite shaman so that we summoners pact for it and imprint it on our chrome moxen so that there are more initial black mana sources.

    I am going through sample hands of nudon's list and I have to agree.
    Thanks for trying my list. :) Deathrite shaman (odious trow before) also doubles as an extra utility body in SI. This deck can't really do that because we don't have lands. Mana fixing is important so you can stick a Progenitus in the deck if you want to go down that route. However, it's unlikely you'll have a summoner's pact and no spirit guides, lotus petals, and spare black cards (to pitch to chrome mox).

  7. #47

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    So in gold fishing with my list, I've discovered that you always want to mull to black mana. The deck is so threat dense that, if you can assemble the mana, getting a threat shouldn't be a problem. Drawing into a proper sequence of mana cards, however, is a far dicier proposition. With that in mind, ALWAYS imprint a black card on Chrome Mox (at least the first one), as not being able to cast Infernal Tutor/Rituals is way too big a liability.

    Another play I've really liked is living wishing for Cavern of souls, if you have a threat already in hand. It gives you a permanent mana source, (something this deck loves) and allows you to thumb your nose at counter magic.

    I also remain an advocate of 1x Charbelcher in the main. This deck's combo folds to an active Deathrite Shaman, and having a MD out is something really important IMO.

    As for results, so far my list has about a 33% T1 kill rate in goldfishing, with kills coming by T4 at the latest.

    Still working on a SB. So far I have 3x Charbelcher, 1x Therapy 1x Swamp, 1x Cavern of Souls and 1x Informer with 8 slots to spare. Cards I'm considering are Gitaxian Probe, Pyroclasm, Abrupt Decay, Leyline of Sanctity, Dismember, Leyline of the Void and Angel of Despair (To get cute with living wish vs. Show and Tell).

    I'm curious if anyone has goldfished or played post board games with the Rogue Deck and, if so, what they chose to take out and how well the deck performed.

  8. #48

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Has Hapless Researcher been considered? Pre-combo, he's basically U: draw a card and will help you get to your win conditions, post combo, he's a human and a wizard and each one represents an additional 2 attempts at winning the game in response to something.

    Maybe it's overkill, I don't know.

  9. #49

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Personally I would just run more Cabal Therapies than Phantasmagorian. If you don't want to run any free disruption for some odd reason, Phantasmagorian gets *all* the combo pieces out of your hand if necessary. Other than that, Therapy has much more utility outright. I've tested a little of my Shallow Grave build, it's actually decent if they counter your druid. Entomb has also been cheaper than Living Wish to tutor with. Personally, I don't mind running 3 or up to 4 Therapy, and a single Phantasmagorian as I run Entomb.
    Quote Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin View Post
    The fairly obvious flaw in your reasoning is that Dark Ritual and Wild Cantor do produce mana. Pretending they don't won't change the function of the cards.

  10. #50
    Undefeated hair
    phazonmutant's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jan 2012
    Location

    Seattle, WA
    Posts

    1,152

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    Never played combo so suggestions might be stupid...

    1) Instead of Living Wish for creature (6 Mana) wouldn't it better to play maindeck charbelcher (7 mana). Also alternative to GY kill...

    2) instead of multiple cabal therapy, wouldnt Pact of Negation maineck be better since it is free and can hit also extraction, removal and whatever else might stop you? Also it seems like some black cards won't be needed in multiples so the 1st unmask looks better than the 2nd cabal therapy.

    3) Normal/Reactive sideboard cards (decay, red-blast, xantid swarm) like in combo where you have lands might not be playable - in general it feels you cannot side a lot. If people in G2 think their FoW or GY hate will save the day, is there a transformational SB possible which dodges this hate? (Empty the warrens, spanish inquisition stuff, multiple mini tendrils)
    Those are good questions. I tested with Belcher as opposed to Living Wish and/or Infernal Tutor and it was very difficult to fire. nudon makes several other good points.

    I'm not sure what the best protection suite is. Pact of Negation makes sense to me though.

    Transforming to Tomb of Urami and a pile of Dread Returns might be a way to hybridize a SI board plan with the main plan. That way you can attempt to Dread Return the Spy if you hit an Urami. Sounds pretty bad, though.

    ----

    So overall thoughts:
    - The deck definitely seems to want at least 12-16 business spells, including some sort of tutor and LED package.
    - The 8 Spirit Guide + 4 Pact plan seems most consistant in getting IMSs

    It seems where people are still working is primarily the sideboard, but also what combination of Living Wish and Infernal Tutor is correct and whether the deck needs Manamorphose or Tinder Wall.

    As far as Deathrite Shaman goes, I haven't had a problem with colors when playing with 4 Manamorphose, but that's definitely a reasonable consideration. For the most part I've found Wild Cantor to be just fine at fixing colors.

    One last thing - the deck name! It sucks, sorry about that. But a friend came up with an awesome suggestion:

    HOBO WITH A SHOTGUN
    Languages and dates for every set. For all you true pimps.

  11. #51

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by phazonmuant View Post
    Those are good questions. I tested with Belcher as opposed to Living Wish and/or Infernal Tutor and it was very difficult to fire. nudon makes several other good points.

    I'm not sure what the best protection suite is. Pact of Negation makes sense to me though.

    Transforming to Tomb of Urami and a pile of Dread Returns might be a way to hybridize a SI board plan with the main plan. That way you can attempt to Dread Return the Spy if you hit an Urami. Sounds pretty bad, though.

    ----

    So overall thoughts:
    - The deck definitely seems to want at least 12-16 business spells, including some sort of tutor and LED package.
    - The 8 Spirit Guide + 4 Pact plan seems most consistant in getting IMSs

    It seems where people are still working is primarily the sideboard, but also what combination of Living Wish and Infernal Tutor is correct and whether the deck needs Manamorphose or Tinder Wall.

    As far as Deathrite Shaman goes, I haven't had a problem with colors when playing with 4 Manamorphose, but that's definitely a reasonable consideration. For the most part I've found Wild Cantor to be just fine at fixing colors.

    One last thing - the deck name! It sucks, sorry about that. But a friend came up with an awesome suggestion:

    HOBO WITH A SHOTGUN
    I am almost 100% certain that Manamorphose is required. You only have 8 IMS of black in the deck which is really low. At least 20% of my hands would have changed a loss into a win if I had that card . It also gives you more live draws to get black mana. 12 vs 8 is huge. The only question is what needs to be cut for it. I have also been toying with unmask as a discard spell. Its can protect your combo or kick the key cards out of your hand. It also does not require an IMS.

    Also if you want a different name why not try Snaps . It is a breakfast Cereal after all. I could live with the name Breakfast Snaps since it is a faster version of the breakfast combo.

  12. #52
    Land Destruction Enthusiast
    Megadeus's Avatar
    Join Date

    Jul 2012
    Location

    Kennesaw, GA
    Posts

    5,572

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    57th street Rogue Dog Villains
    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I've been taking shitty brews and tier 2 decks to tournaments and losing with them for years now. Welcome to the club. We meet for cocktails after round 6.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stevestamopz View Post
    Top quality german restraint there.

    If I'm at the point where I'm rage quitting, you can bet your kransky that I'm calling everyone involved a cunt.

  13. #53

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by phazonmuant View Post
    Those are good questions. I tested with Belcher as opposed to Living Wish and/or Infernal Tutor and it was very difficult to fire. nudon makes several other good points.

    I'm not sure what the best protection suite is. Pact of Negation makes sense to me though.

    Transforming to Tomb of Urami and a pile of Dread Returns might be a way to hybridize a SI board plan with the main plan. That way you can attempt to Dread Return the Spy if you hit an Urami. Sounds pretty bad, though.

    ----

    So overall thoughts:
    - The deck definitely seems to want at least 12-16 business spells, including some sort of tutor and LED package.
    - The 8 Spirit Guide + 4 Pact plan seems most consistant in getting IMSs

    It seems where people are still working is primarily the sideboard, but also what combination of Living Wish and Infernal Tutor is correct and whether the deck needs Manamorphose or Tinder Wall.

    As far as Deathrite Shaman goes, I haven't had a problem with colors when playing with 4 Manamorphose, but that's definitely a reasonable consideration. For the most part I've found Wild Cantor to be just fine at fixing colors.

    One last thing - the deck name! It sucks, sorry about that. But a friend came up with an awesome suggestion:

    HOBO WITH A SHOTGUN
    Infernal tutor is definitely the worse win-con in the deck because it's conditional (requires LED or god hand) so I cut 2. I started testing with street wraith and like it a lot. It lets you play a 56 card deck, pitches to chrome mox for black mana, and doesn't require any initial mana investment like manamorphose. Here's my current list. I put my unmasks in the SB because I think it's important to be fast game 1 before deathrite shaman/scavenging ooze becomes a problem. Lastly, I'd much rather play Wild Cantor before Manamorphose. Red mana from Tinder wall is really bad...

    //Gatecrash Cards
    4 Undercity Informer
    3 Balustrade Spy

    //Mana Fix with Pact
    1 Wild Cantor

    //Mana Generation
    4 Elvish Spirit Guide
    4 Simian Spirit Guide
    4 Lotus Petal
    4 Lion's Eye Diamond
    4 Chrome Mox
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Cabal Ritual

    //Draw & Tutors
    2 Infernal Tutor
    4 Summoner's Pact
    4 Living Wish
    4 Street Wraith

    //Protection
    2 Cabal Therapy

    //Combo
    3 Narcomoeba
    1 Bridge from Below
    1 Dread Return
    1 Laboratory Maniac
    1 Angel of Glory's Rise
    1 Azami, Lady of Scrolls

    //Sideboard
    1 Balustrade Spy
    1 Cavern of Souls
    2 Cabal Therapy
    2 Unmask
    3 Leyline of Sanctity
    2 Dismember
    2 Nature's Claim
    1 Karakas
    1 Bojuka Bog

  14. #54

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Nudon,

    I like your version of the deck, although I think you need the 4th narcomebia to insure going off. If you have 1 narcomebia in hand and use undercity informer, you only have 2 creatures.

    I hate to bring this up, due to the $$$ cost of the card, but would grim tutor be better than infernal tutor?

    Another thing,

    Sutured Ghoul
    Dragons Breath
    vs.
    Azami, Lady of Scrolls
    Lab Maniac
    Angel of Glory Rise

    The two cards frees up a slot maindeck. The three cards gets around 1 swords to plowshares or 1 abrupt decay.

  15. #55

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by gkraigher View Post
    Nudon,

    I like your version of the deck, although I think you need the 4th narcomebia to insure going off. If you have 1 narcomebia in hand and use undercity informer, you only have 2 creatures.

    I hate to bring this up, due to the $$$ cost of the card, but would grim tutor be better than infernal tutor?

    Another thing,

    Sutured Ghoul
    Dragons Breath
    vs.
    Azami, Lady of Scrolls
    Lab Maniac
    Angel of Glory Rise

    The two cards frees up a slot maindeck. The three cards gets around 1 swords to plowshares or 1 abrupt decay.
    Hah, look out, The Mana Drain is leaking.

    http://www.themanadrain.com/index.php?topic=44954.30

    I'm actually very fascinated by the differences between the Vintage and Legacy versions of this build. Legacy, not having access to the Power Nine, seems to be taking a more LED + Tutor approach to the thing. Vintage is eschewing that in favor of superior acceleration. The neat thing that both decks actually compete against largely the same hate. I wonder which one will end up the better deck...?

  16. #56
    Member

    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    Japan
    Posts

    369

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by nudon View Post
    I started testing with street wraith and like it a lot. It lets you play a 56 card deck, pitches to chrome mox for black mana, and doesn't require any initial mana investment like manamorphose.
    "56-card deck" cards are awful, *especially* in glass cannons. Whatever benefits you're getting from playing "less than 60 cards" are outweighed by the fact that mulligan decisions are harder with cards in your deck that are effectively mystery cards in your opening hand. In a deck that is as opening hand dependant as this one, I think "56-card deck" and "pitches to Chrome Mox" aren't good enough reasons to include this in a deck over a card that actually does something, given the drawback of making it that much harder to do evaluate what is the most important decision in a deck like this.

  17. #57

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by gkraigher View Post
    Nudon,

    I like your version of the deck, although I think you need the 4th narcomebia to insure going off. If you have 1 narcomebia in hand and use undercity informer, you only have 2 creatures.

    I hate to bring this up, due to the $$$ cost of the card, but would grim tutor be better than infernal tutor?

    Another thing,

    Sutured Ghoul
    Dragons Breath
    vs.
    Azami, Lady of Scrolls
    Lab Maniac
    Angel of Glory Rise

    The two cards frees up a slot maindeck. The three cards gets around 1 swords to plowshares or 1 abrupt decay.
    Thanks gkraigher. Actually, bridge from below will generate 2 tokens from the 2 narcomoebas that hit the graveyard and you'll still be able to combo off. The only scenario it becomes problematic is if you have 2 narc/bridge in hand. Even then, there are quite a few outs: combo with wish/tutor/spy or pass turn on the draw to discard bridge.

    I haven't tested grim tutor but I imagine it being worse than infernal tutor because 1 mana makes a big difference. An alternative to grim tutor would be transmuting dimir house guard if someone wanted to try that.

    I think 1 extra slot in the deck is more than worth it to dodge swords, decay, maze, moat, humility, etc.

  18. #58

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by Namida View Post
    "56-card deck" cards are awful, *especially* in glass cannons. Whatever benefits you're getting from playing "less than 60 cards" are outweighed by the fact that mulligan decisions are harder with cards in your deck that are effectively mystery cards in your opening hand. In a deck that is as opening hand dependant as this one, I think "56-card deck" and "pitches to Chrome Mox" aren't good enough reasons to include this in a deck over a card that actually does something, given the drawback of making it that much harder to do evaluate what is the most important decision in a deck like this.
    I actually agree with you on this. The problem is there aren't really that many good options to fill out the rest of the deck. I'm not a fan of manamorphose for the same logic. Unmask and infernal tutor #3 and 4 are often dead when you have any of your other kill options in hand.

    Edit: my previous build was -4 street wraith, +2 infernal tutor, +2 unmask fyi.

  19. #59
    Member

    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    Japan
    Posts

    369

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by nudon View Post
    I actually agree with you on this. The problem is there aren't really that many good options to fill out the rest of the deck. I'm not a fan of manamorphose for the same logic. Unmask and infernal tutor #3 and 4 are often dead when you have any of your other kill options in hand.

    Edit: my previous build was -4 street wraith, +2 infernal tutor, +2 unmask fyi.
    The 56-card deck idea as I understand it is that you want to play free cards in your deck to gain a higher ratio of high-impact cards, but I think that this is the sort of thing that only makes any sense when you've maxed out on high-impact cards. I don't think you've maxed out on the number of high-impact cards in your deck.

    In any case...To me, it is unacceptable to lose from mulliganing a hand with Street Wraith in it or from keeping a sketchy hand and praying that Street Wraith becomes what you need it to be.

    If I must lose some games due to my deck's construction, I would rather lose because I built my deck to be as redundant as possible and ended up drawing redundant copies of cards like Unmask and Infernal Tutor that actually have a function in my deck. I don't want to lose because I added Street Wraith and blinded myself from actually seeing what my opening seven looks like--and for what? To affect the deck's construction in ways that shouldn't matter (you never want Street Wraith in your opening hand and you hope that you rarely if ever have to actually play Magic against your opponent and be in a situation where your library's threat ratio would matter). Making your deck less consistent by removing actual game-ending threats like Infernal Tutor for the sake of playing cards that are effectively a crapshoot in cardboard form is the wrong way to go, in my mind. I think it is important to know what your cards do in a deck that aims to use basically its entire opening hand to win ASAP.

  20. #60

    Re: The Rogue Hermit

    Quote Originally Posted by Namida View Post
    The 56-card deck idea as I understand it is that you want to play free cards in your deck to gain a higher ratio of high-impact cards, but I think that this is the sort of thing that only makes any sense when you've maxed out on high-impact cards. I don't think you've maxed out on the number of high-impact cards in your deck.

    In any case...To me, it is unacceptable to lose from mulliganing a hand with Street Wraith in it or from keeping a sketchy hand and praying that Street Wraith becomes what you need it to be.

    If I must lose some games due to my deck's construction, I would rather lose because I built my deck to be as redundant as possible and ended up drawing redundant copies of cards like Unmask and Infernal Tutor that actually have a function in my deck. I don't want to lose because I added Street Wraith and blinded myself from actually seeing what my opening seven looks like--and for what? To affect the deck's construction in ways that shouldn't matter (you never want Street Wraith in your opening hand and you hope that you rarely if ever have to actually play Magic against your opponent and be in a situation where your library's threat ratio would matter). Making your deck less consistent by removing actual game-ending threats like Infernal Tutor for the sake of playing cards that are effectively a crapshoot in cardboard form is the wrong way to go, in my mind. I think it is important to know what your cards do in a deck that aims to use basically its entire opening hand to win ASAP.
    Thanks for the input. After some more thought, I think my original list of +2 infernal tutor, +2 unmask, -4 street wraith is better as you suggest. Chrome mox and unmask mitigates having redundant copies of win-cons. Unmask also helps me get closer to hellbent too. Also can't say enough about unmasking a FoW.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)