[Primer/Deck] High Tide

[jonesypunk]

High Tide is my favourite deck of all time and since his creation. I rarely play it, because in my LGS no one likes to play against it.

The deck is one if not the most difficult to play with, not the combo part because if you understand how the deck works the combo will be "mechanic", and i rarely go on turns. The difficult part is survive, and setup to start the combo.

The choices of brainstorm/ponder/preordain are very important and very hard to make.

The Worst match ups for me are Elves, UR Delver (any Delver deck is hard), Burn, Eldrazi: Because they present a very fast clock that you cant race.

Control match ups, game 1 is not very Hard (lots of dead cards against us), game 2 is almost impossible and game 3 is very difficult (if your opponent understands how high tide works).

Against combo, well, find counters, stop them their first try and maybe second... And then combo for the win.

High Tide (Spiral Tide) is the most resilliant combo deck, they can surgical extraction our cards and still we can find a way to win if we have time to do so.
The last time i played the deck against Death&Taxes i easelly won against Thalia, Mother, Sanctum Prelate (on 1) and Cannonist on table, waiting to the last minute with 2 life left bounced end turn cannonist, Tapped 7 islands, Turnabout, Timespiral, Cunning Wish for bounce spell on Prelate ... And Win.

Love the deck , and i dont even care if i loose, just want to combo and make my opponents sweat.

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[schweinefettmann]

I gotta say though, I feel like solidarity will always beat spiral tide.. but I get what you mean by spiral tide being the most resilient.

Or at least I can’t imagine losing when my opponent gives me the look with brain freezes/BSZ on the stack.. is just go ‘opt’ and then go off!

I’m really interested in trying to get high tide playable again though.. for me, too, it’s a bit of a pet deck, but eidolons and whatever other pressure they have are such a pain to deal with during setup. I’d even put in memory lapse just to ‘time walk’ them. But it’s still not very good.


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[jonesypunk]

I gotta say though, I feel like solidarity will always beat spiral tide.. but I get what you mean by spiral tide being the most resilient.

Or at least I can’t imagine losing when my opponent gives me the look with brain freezes/BSZ on the stack.. is just go ‘opt’ and then go off!

I’m really interested in trying to get high tide playable again though.. for me, too, it’s a bit of a pet deck, but eidolons and whatever other pressure they have are such a pain to deal with during setup. I’d even put in memory lapse just to ‘time walk’ them. But it’s still not very good.


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It would be fun really, Reset Vs Spiral, but i think you are wrong. In the era of Dig Throught Time i played Solidarity and it was fun and i understand how it works. Also in the early days of High Tide, back then i played a lot the mirror match, and it was a "mexican stand of". To beat Reset, the first 2 turns would cantrip for lands, after that just brainstorm/predict in your turn and do nothing in mine, until find Turnabout to tap you in end of your turn (this would happen about turn 15) ohhh it would be so sweet.

High Tide still works now, but it isn't like the early days, due to the amount of hate that exists and the clock, so it is much harder and we have to get better matchups or opponents without enougth knowledge about our strategy. I think we only will be able to really compete if, and only if we can consistently be a turn faster (frantic search) and we get new cards to support our strategy to dodge hosers (i doubt that would happen).

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[schweinefettmann]

It would be fun really, Reset Vs Spiral, but i think you are wrong. In the era of Dig Throught Time i played Solidarity and it was fun and i understand how it works. Also in the early days of High Tide, back then i played a lot the mirror match, and it was a "mexican stand of". To beat Reset, the first 2 turns would cantrip for lands, after that just brainstorm/predict in your turn and do nothing in mine, until find Turnabout to tap you in end of your turn (this would happen about turn 15) ohhh it would be so sweet.

High Tide still works now, but it isn't like the early days, due to the amount of hate that exists and the clock, so it is much harder and we have to get better matchups or opponents without enougth knowledge about our strategy. I think we only will be able to really compete if, and only if we can consistently be a turn faster (frantic search) and we get new cards to support our strategy to dodge hosers (i doubt that would happen).

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Oh man, frantic search would be great!

I dunno about your way of beating solidarity.. I suppose it’d depend on how able your turnabout would be protected/stopped. But yea, completely agree in that it’d be an interesting match!


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[grokh]

What about this new card :



Combo with Time spiral, is a kinda Leovold mono U, and help you tutor your combo pieces !

Thoughts ?

[HdH_Cthulhu]

Combo with Time spiral, is a kinda Leovold mono U, and help you tutor your combo pieces !

Thoughts ?

The timing is kind meh. When you are about to spiral you are already 100% commited to go off this turn - your opponent would have used his disruption already.

But yeah at least he wont draw a force so there is that. And its only a slightly overcosted impulse...

Idk man the decklist is so thight not really sure if its worth it!

[schweinefettmann]

It’s probably good enough for spiral tide. It’s a well costed gain some life, hose their cantrips, and peer through depths in 1 card (or some combination therein).
The trick is whether or not you’re willing to burn an early high tide to drop it turn 2 to buy you more time during setup.
Also, not refilling your opponent’s hands post spiral is probably relevant.


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[merfolkotpt]

Man am I the only one who is excited to have the sideboard back up plan of saheeli now? Mono blue young pyromancer, let's go. Heck you could run 4 delver 4 Saheeli in the board in turn into a medium delver deck post board.

[schweinefettmann]

Man am I the only one who is excited to have the sideboard back up plan of saheeli now? Mono blue young pyromancer, let's go. Heck you could run 4 delver 4 Saheeli in the board in turn into a medium delver deck post board.

Not sure... I tested it in a mono blue/UR painter list, and saheeli was underperforming. Tokens don’t fly, and unless you’re planning to ram like 8-12 of them off casting saheeli, why not just combo off like normal anyways?




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[feline]

Well I own a set of Candels again after having to sell them a couple years ago. Still have to get 3 Forces/2 Time Spirals. After that, might force myself to do some Sunday classics & see what happens. I'll keep in touch some. List is looking a lot like something out of 5 years ago. Though no tops, so a 1 of main deck Mediate is back in. Also the Eldrazi and other increased permanent based hate seems to be a bigger issue now, so a few counterspells in addiction to flusterstorms are looking to be in the list, just more counter heavy overall. Probably 2-3 Vendilion Clique in the sideboard instead of Counterbalance. Also likely cutting Capsize since there's no more top's, you can infinite mana but can't infinite draw anymore.

[aedemiel]

You are back to show us to get the job done?

[feline]

You are back to show us to get the job done?

I have no idea, I don't even know if I can get the job done individually, but will see though.

[bruizar]

I have no idea, I don't even know if I can get the job done individually, but will see though.

What’s your take on echo of eons and lions eye diamond? It seems busted to me.

Are there any other printings that are good for this deck and have you ever thought about splashing a color?

[schweinefettmann]

What’s your take on echo of eons and lions eye diamond? It seems busted to me.

Are there any other printings that are good for this deck and have you ever thought about splashing a color?

Feel free to test, but it’s not usable in spiral tide nor solidarity.

It draws 7, but it doenst untap lands, and it makes you dump your hand if you use led. That is, bad if you don’t also run notion tgief. But that’s the start of a brew I think.


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[feline]

Echo and Lion's Eye Diamond is a different deck at that point.

Experimenting with the following:

4 High Tide
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Time Spiral
1 Turnabout
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Flusterstorm
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
6 Fetchland
12 Island
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
-sb-
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Intuition
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Snap
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
1 Flusterstorm
1 Counterspell
1 Pact of Negation
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Vendilion Clique

-I like Defense Grid but it's risky to play it and pass the turn.
-The maindeck counterspells could also potentially be Remand or Repeal, anything to slow the game down, but I just have a bias towards actually countering as some permanent based hate flusterstorm can't target.
-This deck should at worst be 50/50 against the average combo deck. If a combo deck wins, it's likely cause it's faster & had a better hand, but as each turn passes, the likelihood of winning increases dramatically, especially with this many counterspells.
-Even though Sensei's Divining Top is gone, I am ok with this. I'd rather lose top in the deck if it means not having to fight counterbalance/top combo ever again, that was one of the biggest hurdles to overcome once it got going.
-I'm not going for the Spellseeker/Sapphire Medallion setup, as Spellseeker is a creature & I am purposely avoiding turning on potential opposing cards from the opponent. I want creature removal/graveyard hate/artifact hate/etc to be as dead as possible. If they want to waste a turn making candels useless, that is fine with me.
-As far as Predict goes, I would have to either cut candels or preordain. I like preordain as much as brainstorm/ponder since they can be cast from turn 1 when you might need to fish for more lands from the get-go. As far as cutting candels goes, I think the benefits of running them means they're worth it. I understand most people just can't afford them, so that makes sense as well. (If you don't have Candels, just run more Turnabouts and add a single Snap to the maindeck, it randomly bounces hatebears & of course, untaps.)

Other card options:
-1 maindeck Meditate, 1 maindeck Snap are still a possibility.
-1 sideboard Capsize, but with top gone can't infinitely draw anymore, so getting echoing truth and replaying candels is likely fine if you need mana that bad.

[jonesypunk]

Echo and Lion's Eye Diamond is a different deck at that point.

Experimenting with the following:

4 High Tide
4 Candelabra of Tawnos
4 Time Spiral
1 Turnabout
4 Force of Will
3 Counterspell
3 Flusterstorm
4 Merchant Scroll
3 Cunning Wish
6 Fetchland
12 Island
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Preordain
-sb-
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Brain Freeze
1 Intuition
1 Meditate
1 Turnabout
1 Snap
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
1 Flusterstorm
1 Counterspell
1 Pact of Negation
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Vendilion Clique

-I like Defense Grid but it's risky to play it and pass the turn.
-The maindeck counterspells could also potentially be Remand or Repeal, anything to slow the game down, but I just have a bias towards actually countering as some permanent based hate flusterstorm can't target.
-This deck should at worst be 50/50 against the average combo deck. If a combo deck wins, it's likely cause it's faster & had a better hand, but as each turn passes, the likelihood of winning increases dramatically, especially with this many counterspells.
-Even though Sensei's Divining Top is gone, I am ok with this. I'd rather lose top in the deck if it means not having to fight counterbalance/top combo ever again, that was one of the biggest hurdles to overcome once it got going.
-I'm not going for the Spellseeker/Sapphire Medallion setup, as Spellseeker is a creature & I am purposely avoiding turning on potential opposing cards from the opponent. I want creature removal/graveyard hate/artifact hate/etc to be as dead as possible. If they want to waste a turn making candels useless, that is fine with me.
-As far as Predict goes, I would have to either cut candels or preordain. I like preordain as much as brainstorm/ponder since they can be cast from turn 1 when you might need to fish for more lands from the get-go. As far as cutting candels goes, I think the benefits of running them means they're worth it. I understand most people just can't afford them, so that makes sense as well. (If you don't have Candels, just run more Turnabouts and add a single Snap to the maindeck, it randomly bounces hatebears & of course, untaps.)

Other card options:
-1 maindeck Meditate, 1 maindeck Snap are still a possibility.
-1 sideboard Capsize, but with top gone can't infinitely draw anymore, so getting echoing truth and replaying candels is likely fine if you need mana that bad.

One card that i started loving in High Tide is Mission Briefing that can allow to play something that was discarded and can help you play something twice or even a Brain Freese with lower storm count (remand trick), i tried all the numbers but i'd say 1 is pretty solid. You may wan't to try it.

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[feline]

A new primer has been written here: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...gh-Tide-Primer

New discussion can follow there. I don't have time to update this primer like I did 6 years ago. Mods may close/move this thread. I'll be furthering any discussion myself there, the new primer is very detailed. Thank you chaosumbreon87.