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Thread: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

  1. #201
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    Baneslayer. YESYESYESYESYESYESYES
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  2. #202

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    Quote Originally Posted by lordofthepit View Post
    1) Add a few Stoneforges and add equipment like Sword of Fire and Ice. This is basically what Death and Taxes has done to adjust. In this case, I'd probably consider shaving a few Bolts, since having access to Jitte makes that less necessary. Also, Sword of Light and Shadow on any Zoo creature is absolutely insane, since it effective blanks all removal (and turns your creatures into significant threats that rebuy fallen creatures).

    2) Add Mother of Runes, probably at the cost of Nacatl. This is what separates Maverick from Zoo, in my opinion. It's something I don't want to resort to, since I consider Nacatl a better creature when backed by the removal suite and exalted triggers available to Zoo, since it's a quick clock against combo and an aggressive threat that doesn't force you to overextend against control.

    And then I considered several things, in increasing order of likeliness to be met with skepticism:

    3) Baneslayer Angel. This was a creature that was run in several of the original Big Zoo decklists, and I actually considered re-adding this. It conveniently outraces the likes of Tombstalker, Progenitus, etc., while stopping Griselbrand cold. I hate drawing clunky cards early though, so I'm not super enthusiastic.

    4) Flaring Pain. Let that sucker block with their TNN. Get them with Flaring Pain, and flash it back if they try to counter.

    5) Holy Light. This is probably way too out there, especially since it kills your mana dorks.

    I might be overthinking things though. The right solution could be just not giving a fuck because we're Zoo and force the opponent to react to us.
    Adding stoneforges + SoFaI and perhaps a Jitte seems like a good option. I also agree on the Mother of Runes, if people wanted to consider cutting Nacatl and play Mother of Runes we wouldn't be having this discussion I guess :).

    Baneslayer Angel seems very nice, but it isn't tutorable or Zenithable (X = 5 would be tough anyway I guess), making it a card you can't rely on enough. Same for Flaring Pain and Holy Light. I honestly feel some sort of solution is needed, looking at how many of the fair blue decks use the card. TNN is a brick wall.

    Ajani, Caller of the Pride forfills a similar role to Elspeth, just a bit more explosive. She'd be in a similar slot too. I feel we need something you can manipulate out of your deck. Perhaps SFM + equipment is the way to go.

  3. #203
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    I don't think TNN is the problem as you can race it with a Nacatl, it's the equipment that makes it annoying. Make sure you play at least 3 pridmeage and play Grip/Grudge in the board (at least 2 of them).
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  4. #204

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    hey guys ive been tinkering around with my own zoo list. a little different than everyone elses here mine is more like sligh/burn super aggro. my current answer to True-name nemesis is to just apply heavy pressure early on and keep them on the defense, and whatever they block just activate ghor-clan rampager and push through him for damage. your creature that is blocked will get through for alot of damage since TNN can only soak up one point and the creature will live. the idea is that when they untap on turn 4 they are so low that blocking is just irrelevant.

    the core

    4 experiment one (yes bear with me, he IS the new wild nacatl)
    4 wild nacatl
    4 goblin guide
    4 kird ape
    4 burning-tree emissary (he is incredibly bonkers and puts extreme pressure on opponent)
    4 tarmogoyf

    the flex slots (my current configuration)

    4 vexing devil (in my experience he is better on turn 2 off a burning tree emissary, he buffs experiment 1 to 4 power even if they pay the 4 life)
    4 lightning bolt
    4 price of progress
    4 ghor-clan rampager

    20 lands (i like a basic forest and mountain, no basic plains) note this deck does not run any main deck white. its only there to buff wild nacatl and for sideboard cards.

    1 mountain
    1 forest
    4 taiga
    3 plateau
    3 windswept heath
    4 arid mesa
    4 wooded foothills

    the most explosive draw this deck is capable of is turn 1 experiment one, turn 2 burning tree -> wild nacatl and vexing devil. you end up swinging for 4 damage and they take 4 to the dome. so at the end of your second turn they are at 12 life and you have a 4/4, a 3/3, and a 2/2. on their turn if they try playing a goyf or stoneforge you can usually just bolt it / ghor clan rampage past them for the win. im a huge fan of rampager because it allows you to CRUSH batterskull merciulessly even with your dinky little 2/2. they tempo they lose in having to pick up batterskull and drop it down again is HUGE. they basically waste 4 mana on casting / activating stoneforge. then they block and you negate their lifelink.

    even when you rip a more mediocre hand like t1 goblin guide into t2 burning tree, lightning bolt, wild nacatl you still put enormous pressure on your opponent. pretty much forcing them to have a board wipe. the metagame i usually play this deck in features alot of 3 color control (bug / deathblade) and tons of delver and elves. i think this deck literally cannot lose to bug or deathblade. all of your creatures can effectively swing past all their creatures. also ghor clan is usually such a huge blowout on their critical stabilizing turn.

    the sideboard changes often but cards ive had success with include but are not limited to

    thalia, gaddock teeg, aethersworn cannonist - i like to have a nice variety of hate bears
    searing blaze - card is AMAZING against elves. and any other fair matchup.
    wear/tear - usually an auto include 4 of.
    sulfuric vortex - gives you reach against heavy terminus decks. also shuts down lifelink.
    mindbreak trap / faerie macabre - nice turn 0 interaction for the unfair decks.


    things to tinker with are thalia maindeck since i only run 2 spells (bolt and price) if price is bad in the meta id probably run 3 thalia and a chain lightning instead. or a fireblast which is another card that could possibly be added to the maindeck for some super reach.

  5. #205
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    dagoblinguy - I like how you've kept the maindeck R/G. The list seems pretty streamlined, which is really how I think Aggro Zoo should be built. The only choices I question are Price of Progress and Ghor-Clan Rampager. Perhaps it's really just a metagame call. In my local meta, for example, aside from the one guy who plays Lands every now and then, there just really aren't that many decks who are playing out 3+ nonbasics, so Price of Progress seems mediocre (though I can certainly envision scenarios where it's amazing). As for Rampager, I keep fighting over his slot. I like Rampager, but it's really just a pump spell (though, maybe that's enough). I've also considered a split of Path to Exile and Boros Charm in his slot. In general, I really like playing a few more burn spells that can hit creatures or players (Tribal Flames was may favorite card, but I just don't see a reason to play full domain in Zoo anymore).

    So, assuming you're running Experiment One + Vexing Devil, I would argue that the deck has 12 flex slots, for which possible options would be:

    Ghor-Clan Rampager
    Price of Progress
    Boros Charm
    Path to Exile
    Chain Lightning

  6. #206

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    It looks like the list of Dan MUSSER SCG Invi :

    1 Forest
    1 Mountain
    1 Savannah
    2 Plateau
    3 Taiga
    4 Arid Mesa
    4 Windswept Heath
    4 Wooded Foothills
    2 Grim Lavamancer
    4 Burning-Tree Emissary
    4 Experiment One
    4 Goblin Guide
    4 Kird Ape
    4 Tarmogoyf
    4 Wild Nacatl
    3 Path to Exile
    3 Price of Progress
    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Chain Lightning

    SB: 1 Path to Exile
    SB: 1 Price of Progress
    SB: 1 Grim Lavamancer
    SB: 3 Pyrostatic Pillar
    SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
    SB: 2 Oblivion Ring
    SB: 2 Searing Blaze
    SB: 2 Sulfuric Vortex


    Deck tech : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7YAFiVq8Pw

  7. #207
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    If anyone is still interested in trying out Big Zoo, I think having a Kessig Wolf-Run or a Skarrg, the Rage Pits to let your Knights trample may be the best bet.

  8. #208
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    Quote Originally Posted by lordofthepit View Post
    If anyone is still interested in trying out Big Zoo, I think having a Kessig Wolf-Run or a Skarrg, the Rage Pits to let your Knights trample may be the best bet.
    That's actually not a bad idea...
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  9. #209
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    Why not play blue zoo with some stoneforges? It might most directly deal with the problem that is TNN, but it has a few strengths.


    1) Being able to run Rest in Peace effectively.

    2) Strong Combo Matchup pre-board (some number of spell pierce and daze)

    3) Having an out to Death and Taxes in the form of jitte

    4) Being able to play batterskull against control decks seems solid

    5) Access to Force of will means we don't have to rely purely on our stoneforges to pull weight in those matchups


    Also, Vendilion Clique is a creature, and force of will might help agaisnt control decks.
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  10. #210
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    At that point, why play zoo? Sounds like you are pushing bant.

    My thought was run Ghor Clan Rampager. You get a largish man who just tramples over TNN
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  11. #211
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    Quote Originally Posted by Megadeus View Post
    At that point, why play zoo? Sounds like you are pushing bant.

    My thought was run Ghor Clan Rampager. You get a largish man who just tramples over TNN
    Because, who doesn't want a wild nacatl while holding up force of will :D ?

    Though, you're probably right about BANT.
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  12. #212
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    Zoo, 2013, & the steady decline:

    2011 was an awesome year for Zoo, 2012 was a decline, but still had some showings, 2013 however, was even more anti climatic for the deck. Officially, the deck could be listed as dead. For list that have made it in more recent showings, many have been "Big Zoo" versions, and versions adding Punishing Fire to recur removal/burn elements.

    As for why it's been on the decline, it just doesn't do enough even being so fast, a lot of stuff is faster in the format (mostly combo) & one needs some disruption to back it up, which doesn't come from the traditional Zoo colors of white/red/green.

    As far as 2014 goes for Zoo, and those that keep pushing the deck, best of luck into the new year, whatever version of Zoo you decide to run, hopefully a transition with the deck will allow it to come back at some level in the format for those that love this deck.
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  13. #213
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    The older Legacy becomes the closer it gets to Vintage.
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    The older Legacy becomes the closer it gets to Vintage.
    That seems to make perfect sense. With respect to the implications toward a deck like Zoo, I'm slightly saddened by that fact that it doesn't really seem like a pure aggro deck is viable in the legacy format (not in the sort of "all in" style that we used to see in formats in the past). That being said, it's really invariable that at some point in eternal formats (without extensive use of the banned list) combo decks will beat out the fastest of the aggro decks. The only option for aggro then is to pack some form of disruption. As that disruption reduces the clock of the deck, card advantage becomes more important. So you have this shift from decks like Zoo to things like BUG. If we see a somewhat traditional style Zoo deck come back to prominence, I suspect it will be on the back of some very potent "hate bears" and possibly in conjunction with some bannings adjusting the top tier decks (note that I'm not implying any bannings are warranted at present).

  15. #215
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    Quote Originally Posted by feline View Post
    Zoo, 2013, & the steady decline:

    2011 was an awesome year for Zoo, 2012 was a decline, but still had some showings, 2013 however, was even more anti climatic for the deck. Officially, the deck could be listed as dead. For list that have made it in more recent showings, many have been "Big Zoo" versions, and versions adding Punishing Fire to recur removal/burn elements.

    As for why it's been on the decline, it just doesn't do enough even being so fast, a lot of stuff is faster in the format (mostly combo) & one needs some disruption to back it up, which doesn't come from the traditional Zoo colors of white/red/green.

    As far as 2014 goes for Zoo, and those that keep pushing the deck, best of luck into the new year, whatever version of Zoo you decide to run, hopefully a transition with the deck will allow it to come back at some level in the format for those that love this deck.
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainTwiddle View Post
    That seems to make perfect sense. With respect to the implications toward a deck like Zoo, I'm slightly saddened by that fact that it doesn't really seem like a pure aggro deck is viable in the legacy format (not in the sort of "all in" style that we used to see in formats in the past). That being said, it's really invariable that at some point in eternal formats (without extensive use of the banned list) combo decks will beat out the fastest of the aggro decks. The only option for aggro then is to pack some form of disruption. As that disruption reduces the clock of the deck, card advantage becomes more important. So you have this shift from decks like Zoo to things like BUG. If we see a somewhat traditional style Zoo deck come back to prominence, I suspect it will be on the back of some very potent "hate bears" and possibly in conjunction with some bannings adjusting the top tier decks (note that I'm not implying any bannings are warranted at present).
    I wrote this post for /r/mtglegacy, but it seems relevant here. I tried to sum up how recent printings have changed the Legacy metagame to the point where pure aggro is no longer viable (and it isn't just combo's fault). While this applies to all aggro decks in theory, it is particularly applicable to Zoo (as a combo player who used to moonlight as a fast Zoo player, it is largely based on my experience with the deck). The recent stuff is theory-crafting as I quit playing Zoo this summer when both Miracles and Omnitell surged in my metagame.

    Aggro has been dropping off ever since the printing of Batterskull, honestly. SFM + Batterskull is an extremely cheap and compact package that allows midrange and control to basically slam Baneslayer Angel on turn 3 (and it doesn't really die to removal, plus vigilance means you must overcome 8 lifegain per turn functionally). Sure, you can kill the mystic, but countermagic and Mother of Runes exist. This printing started the decline.

    Innistrad brought two printings that warped Legacy - Delver of Secrets and Snapcaster Mage. Delver of Secrets passed Wild Nacatl as the best aggressive one-drop ever printed. It was blue, was not dependent on land types, and even had evasion. This printing made Canadian Threshold much faster, enabling it too kill nearly as quickly as Zoo while maintaining high consistency due to cantrips as well as enormous disruption and stack control. While it was not obvious at first, Delver.dec had largely made pure aggro obsolete. Snapcaster Mage had an entirely different impact. It gave control and mid-rangy blue decks functionally eight Swords to Plowshares while also providing a body to block with. Devastating two-for-ones against aggro decks became the norm, and a draw heavy on Plows and SCMs was almost impossible to play though, especially as these decks usually played SFM + Batterskull as well.

    The next big hit came in Avacyn Restored. The Miracle mechanic produced a literal one-mana Wrath of God which requires only Brainstorm, SDT, or Jace to set up - cards that were already played in control decks to begin with. Miracles is an almost unwinnable matchup for aggro, which upsets the old "combo beats aggro, aggro beats control, control beats combo" cliche. In the same set, Griselbrand was printed. This card created a whole new fast combo archetype (TinFins) while returning Sneak and Show from the dead where it rightfully belonged. Sneak and Show in particular dodges most of the hate that aggro decks could pack for Storm and Dredge. Griselbrand makes Sneak much more consistent and powerful while being almost impossible to race.

    Return to Ravnica block brought Enter the Infinite, creating the Omnishow deck, which is basically Sneak that doesn't lose to Sneak hate (Karakas, Gilded Drake, Pithing Needle, etc.). Now there was yet another combo deck that was difficult for aggro to hate out or race. You may be getting the impression that I hate combo decks - this is absolutely untrue as I am a combo player by nature. However, the impact of Show and Tell-based combo on the aggro archetype has been devastating, as there just aren't enough sideboard slots to prepare for another combo deck on top of aggro's traditional enemies (Storm, High Tide, Dredge, Reanimator to name a few).

    This brings us to Return to Ravnica. Deathrite Shaman has empowered grindy midrange decks to a great extent (Jund is exhibit A). These decks are strong against pure aggro because of high amounts of removal and blockers along with card advantage to win the lategame. Deathrite Shaman provides acceleration, a clock, and the all-important lifegain to survive the early rush. Abrupt Decay isn't particularly important by comparison as it is just another removal spell.

    Finally, we reach commander 2013. Delver wasn't enough, WOTC had to go and print a 3/1 Progenitus for 3 mana in heavy blue. Now every blue deck has a wall that aggro can't attack through and that can also carry Jitte or Batterskull for a blowout. This is obviously terrible for aggro decks unless they are also playing blue (Canadian Threshold says hi).

    As you can see, WOTC has spent several years printing anti-aggro cards that empower midrange and control strategies to beat those matchups. This has allowed control to lock down the aggro matchup and also perform strongly against traditional combo using recent toys like Flusterstorm and Rest in Peace. They have also printed blue creatures that are stronger and more aggressive than non-blue alternatives, making Canadian Threshold and other tempo strategies like Patriot much more compelling than pure aggro. Finally, they have printed dumb permanents that have enshrined Show and Tell.dec as a third, difficult to hate out, combo pillar. All of these factors have combined to make pure aggro a difficult proposition, as you have very few good matchups and a heck of a lot of bad ones nowadays.
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    Admiral_Arzar, I very much agree with your analysis above (didn't want to copy the lengthy post). All in all, I think the changes that have moved the format away from pure aggro have added some play to the format that is desirable, but it may be too much now with True-Name Nemesis. Why that card had to be blue will continue to mystify me, but that's a topic for a different thread. Here's hoping Zoo one day regains at least tier 1.5 status.

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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    Quote Originally Posted by CaptainTwiddle View Post
    Admiral_Arzar, I very much agree with your analysis above (didn't want to copy the lengthy post). All in all, I think the changes that have moved the format away from pure aggro have added some play to the format that is desirable, but it may be too much now with True-Name Nemesis. Why that card had to be blue will continue to mystify me, but that's a topic for a different thread. Here's hoping Zoo one day regains at least tier 1.5 status.
    Unfortunately I can't play Zoo in my meta anymore. The upsurge of Miracles and Omnitell last summer drove me away from the deck, and nowadays there is no Omnitell, but there is still Miracles, Sneak and Show, Reanimator, and plenty of U/W/x TNN decks which are also bad matchups. The days where there were plenty of tribal decks to prey on and most blue decks were favorable matchups are over, and I don't think that's going to change for a long time, if ever. Drastic changes in the meta that heavily reduces the prevalence of SnT-based combo, along with new cards allowing aggro to once again beat blue decks would be required.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Julian23 View Post
    Since playing against Spiral Tide provides a lot fun for both players is something only someone who's not had sex for quite a while could enjoy, I pull out GW Maverick.
    Quote Originally Posted by Brainstorm Ape View Post
    Spikes are supposed to enjoy winning by leveraging their talents, but this card can't fetch the most SKILL INTENSIVE card in all of Magic?

    Clearly aimed at Modern plebs, not gonna be a pillar of our format.
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  18. #218

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    I want to suggest this list:

    4 Goblin Guide
    4 Kird Ape
    4 Wild Nacatl
    4 Grim Lavamancer
    4 Deathrite Shaman
    4 Dark Confidant

    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Path to Exile
    4 Lightning Helix
    4 Chain Lightning

    4 Arid Mesa
    4 Marsh Flats
    3 Wooded Foothills
    3 Taiga
    3 Plateau
    3 Badlands


    SB:

    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Red Elemental Blast
    4 Qasali Pridemage
    3 Zealous Persecution

    Okay:

    This list is, yes, strikingly similar to many variants of RDW in Modern.

    Tarmogoyf gets cut for Dark Confidant. Ideally, we can sit back on a Confidant and regain our hand in the face of the Miracles player. Not ideal, but postboard we have QPM, REB, Thoughtseize, and, if you'd like, Abrupt Decay.

    It is best to play Nacatl before Guide. By turn 4, Nacatl has dealt 9; Guide has dealt 8 and given, at worst, 4 land to the opponent.
    When faced with a hand comprised of DRS and other one drops, it is typically best to play the beaters first.

    The sideboard can be modified extensively, including adding Abrupt Decays, Ethersworn Canonist, or Pyrostatic Pillars.

    If mainboard Artifact/Enchantment hate is desired, cutting 4 Kird Ape for 4 QPM is appropriate. This may warrant switching out a fetchland and two badlands for 1 each: scrubland, bayou, and savannah.

    Thoughts? Dark Zoo has long been my pet deck, and in a day and age when more traditional lists have hit a wall, I'm curious in the efficacy of more marginalized strategies.

  19. #219
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    I think Spirit of the Labyrinth has a place in Zoo helping the control and combo matchups. The fact that it's a 3/1 and not a 2/2 makes it more formidable in the deck. I'm gonna jam a set in and see how it plays out, here's the list I'll test him in:

    Mana: 22

    Creatures: 26
    4 Wild Nacatl
    2 Grim Lavamancer
    4 Goyf
    4 Spirit of the Lab
    3 Thalia
    3 Qasali Pridemage
    4 Loxodon Smiter
    2 Huntmaster of the Fells

    Other: 12
    8 Bolts
    2 Swords
    2 Jitte
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  20. #220
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Zoo

    Hatebear Zoo is something I keep looking at, as well as the utility creatures with their abilities.
    Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
    Gaddock Teeg
    Ethersworn Canonist
    Qasali Pridemage
    Grim Lavamancer
    Stoneforge Mystic
    Knight of the Reliquary


    & now of course, the new 3/1 draw 1 only spirit
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