Page 262 of 263 FirstFirst ... 162212252258259260261262263 LastLast
Results 5,221 to 5,240 of 5242

Thread: [Primer/Deck] Pox

  1. #5221

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    There has been a lot of hype about currency converter in lands recently. Loam pox is a lands-adjacent deck that appears to use it better. Liliana OTV and Smallpox synergize much better with a discard based engine than exploration and crop rotation do. A 1 drop that poops out zombies is much more in line with an attrition deck than a combo/prison one.

    It is a hybrid between bitterblossom, mox diamond, and scroll rack, all of which are reasonable cards in loam pox, but only 1 mana so you can get it with saga. It has a ton of synergy with cycle or channel lands, which are more valuable in pox than lands (due to the lack of exploration). Compared to the dark ritual/karn shells, smallpox and hymn inherently wants to play a smaller game. Karn pox does a poor job of being a “go big” deck compared to eldrazi post or curses.

    My draft list:


    4 Urza’s Saga
    4 Wasteland
    3 Maze of Ith
    3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawmoth
    2 Boseiju, Who Endures
    2 Barren Moor
    1 Nurturing Peatland
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    1 Bayou
    1 Forest
    4 Swamp

    4 Currency Converter
    4 Raven’s Crime
    4 Life From the Loam
    4 Mox Diamond
    2 Witherbloom Command

    3 Thoughtseize
    4 Smallpox
    3 Liliana of the Veil

    1 Nether Spirit
    1 Shadowspear
    1 Nihil Spellbomb

  2. #5222
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    PDX
    Posts

    2,326

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    @reeplcheep This list can't interact an enemy Currency Converter, and their Currency Converter will be better than yours b/c all this deck can realistically discard is lands (which make Lotus Petals rather than 2/2s). This is a crippling flaw which needs to be fixed, because anyone, short of Thopter Tribal (Ninjas), should have already figured out that Currency is a better card than Retrofitter. If you expect 15-20% of opponents to be on Saga, they are also going to be on Currency.

  3. #5223

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Fox View Post
    @reeplcheep This list can't interact an enemy Currency Converter, and their Currency Converter will be better than yours b/c all this deck can realistically discard is lands (which make Lotus Petals rather than 2/2s). This is a crippling flaw which needs to be fixed, because anyone, short of Thopter Tribal (Ninjas), should have already figured out that Currency is a better card than Retrofitter. If you expect 15-20% of opponents to be on Saga, they are also going to be on Currency.
    We have 2 Boseiju that we can recur and 2 witherbloom command. Surely that will be enough? If it isn’t we can always cut the 4th converter for a needle or the 4th loam for another command. Furthermore, in a saga + shadowspear mirror a lotus petal is better than a 2/2 zombie imo.

    That is an interesting prediction. 8 cast and Ninjas both want Retrofitter since they can make a bunch of thopters easily. Lands I can see running this, as mentioned above, but what other saga decks are there? Hmm this could be better than Retrofitter in curses, I would have to see.

    I had assumed you would have criticized the deck as having too much discard and not enough removal in a delver meta instead of the above.

  4. #5224
    Member

    Join Date

    May 2015
    Location

    PDX
    Posts

    2,326

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    As a Pox deck you should be way more concerned with the first real anti-discard card since SDT was banned. There are reactive (bad) cards like Veil of Summer ofc, but very few "you can't discard me effectively and also this is an engine card." Your first goal as Pox is to have a plan against this card, before you ever consider using it. When you start discarding an opposing Currency, their 2/2 spam is going to come out ridiculously faster than you can keep up with. You cannot [safely] play fair, discard-heavy styles until this problem is solved (you need Leylines or Dauthi or Karn. Needle is super high variance since you'd be hitting your own 4-of).

    This is an overarching strategy problem, which puts it upstream of meta considerations and deck vs deck matchups.

  5. #5225

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Those are decent points. However both smallpox and Liliana are symmetrical so I don’t see how they are going any faster. If ravens crime is unprofitable, I can always loot with the ability instead. Thought seize is the most negatively affected, but it also gains the most from being able to be looted away for value. I will consider cutting thoughtseize for fatal push and another witherbloom.

    Some examples of where converter is excellent even without affecting the opponent:

    Converter, swamp, Forest, loam. If you loot t2 and make a 2/2 on t3 upkeep you are up a card and 2/2 on the normal line (loam without targets) for 1 mana.

    Land land fetch mox converter crime loam. A bit magical Christmas land, but it Lets you retrace 3x by t2 instead instead of only 2x.

  6. #5226

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Cool to see this forum is still going even after 2 months of no activity. Fox brings up a good point that enemy Currency Converter is actually a solid anti Pox card. Luckily for Green and Black you can deal with that with Green and Black removal. As Saga tutors out Currency as well I agree it doesn’t need to be a four of, but it’s powerful enough to at least play two there is fine. This gives you the ability to needle it if the enemy Converter poses a big enough threat.

    As Karn is a big mana card I don’t think it should be considered on Loam Pox as working with Loam and Saga is an already working strategy and Loam Pox can’t get him out fast enough. It works in Mono Black Pox to some degree because Rituals exist and it gives Pox an unfair way to win at a deck building cost that isn’t that high considering Karn’s power level. As Mono Black is weak to artifacts I think Karn is fine, but it just doesn’t belong in Loam where you have removal for the artifacts you want to hose.

    Also think Currency Converter could become great in Mono Black Pox too as it rewards you for using self discard and can filter out dead cards for you.

    All that said I think more Pox players should consider Black Market Connections as it only fuels the Karn and / or Saga strategies that Pox has picked up. Will it be good in Pox? Only results can show. I think it will be good though.

  7. #5227

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Yes as I have said to you numerous times, karn is a “big game” card that shouldn’t be in the same deck as smallpox. I think your karn lists would do much better with hymn or chalice than smallpox.

    Currency converter and loam provide the perfect “small game” engine that works well with smallpox. My list inspired more pedigreed lands/depths players:

    “Went an unimpressive 4-3 with Loam Pox. list largely copied from
    @reeplcheep
    .
    List is super fun and definitely stronger than it looks at a glance but not fully tuned. I will likely be working on it for a bit. Matchups in the first comment
    “ - Michael Mapson


    From his ideas and some of my own matches I tuned the list a bit:
    3 cmc Creatures that produce tokens are aweful for the deck. With so few fetches revolt is hard to trigger early but I think rider is too expensive. I think a few decays are good, I can afford to skimp on 1 cmc removal with so much discard and acceleration.

    I think map is an excellent addition. I really like nether spirit to loot with converter or save your constructs from your smallpoxes.

    Maze was medium, reasonable to cut. Especially with map, I would like 1 karakas. I am not sure about cabal pit but it is reasonable to try.


    4 Urza’s Saga
    4 Wasteland
    1 Karakas
    1 Cabal Pit
    3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawmoth
    2 Boseiju, Who Endures
    2 Barren Moor
    1 Nurturing Peatland
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    2 Bayou
    1 Forest
    3 Swamp

    3 Currency Converter
    3 Raven’s Crime
    4 Life From the Loam
    4 Mox Diamond
    2 Witherbloom Command
    2 Abrupt Decay

    3 Thoughtseize
    4 Smallpox
    3 Liliana of the Veil

    1 Nether Spirit
    1 Shadowspear
    1 Nihil Spellbomb
    1 Expedition Map


    Overall the deck seems well founded. Converter provides the tempo and filtering to support ravens crime. Raven’s Crime is an outlet for all your lands that is different than exploration, making sure the deck isn’t just “lands, but bad” or “slow depths, but bad”. The green splash provides cheap CA, sideboard cards, and md enchantment/artifact removal which have are pox’s historical weak points.

  8. #5228

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    I am very busy with IRL stuff but managed to get a few games in. Some of the other pilots don’t like decay since it misses murktide, but I value the flexibility highly in a deck without cantrips. With extra thoughtseizes and 7 sac effects it seems manageable.

    Hands without converter, thoughtseize, or mox diamond feel very clunky so I decided to max out on those cards. Cabal pit has outperformed my (low) expectations and so I want 2. Highlights include killing a scary prelate on 2, delvers, etc… Going up to 6 fetches has felt good to maximize early life from the loams. To make room for this we had to cut the expedition map package.


    4 Urza’s Saga
    4 Wasteland
    2 Cabal Pit
    3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawmoth
    2 Boseiju, Who Endures
    2 Barren Moor
    2 Polluted Delta
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    2 Bayou
    1 Forest
    2 Swamp

    4 Currency Converter
    2 Raven’s Crime
    4 Life From the Loam
    4 Mox Diamond
    2 Witherbloom Command
    2 Abrupt Decay

    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Smallpox
    3 Liliana of the Veil

    1 Nether Spirit
    1 Shadowspear
    1 Nihil Spellbomb


    For Mr. fox, I haven’t seen anyone else playing converter. Nevertheless, this list does have 10 different ways to answer it cleanly (decay, witherbloom, boseiju, thoughtseize + sideboard needles and FoV)


    4 Leyline of the Void
    2 Force of Vigor
    4 Chalice of the Void
    2 Bontu’s Last Reckoning
    1 The Tabernacle of Pendrell Vale
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Graffdiggers Cage

    The sideboard is a bit weird since we are a gy and artifact deck that is weak to other gy and artifact decks. FoV is hard to alt cast but there aren’t many better options. Thoughtseize into chalice on 0 is our best way to beat 8cast and storm as we can’t run null rod/ouphe. We are very weak to token producers, bontus and tabernacle over other options to hit murktide/kappa. Needle and cage are saga bullets.
    Last edited by Reeplcheep; 07-04-2022 at 10:15 AM. Reason: Added sideboarding

  9. #5229
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    Hell in a Nutshell
    Posts

    5,242

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    How do you feel about Cursed Scroll? I have used it in an aggro version of 8cast and I loved how it provided reach. It isn't reliable against early small creatures but it helps close out games. I always liked Crop Rotation in Loam Pox, it was such a versatile card. I was playing Depths in that version, but I didn't always fetch Depths, it was often Wasteland, Cabal Pit, or Karakas.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  10. #5230

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Shadowspear is our “reach”. I am not sure if we need much more. Cursed scroll not killing DRC and murktide makes it significantly worse. I don’t want more clunky 1 drops, that is why I cut expedition map.

    Crop rotation is a good card. I just don’t think it fits the deck. Crime/converter/smallpox means we are an attrition deck not a toolbox/combo one. Crop rotation would be better inherently better in a slow depths shell.

  11. #5231

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    This list and video is worth checking out...

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ryBMh9C2lTk&t=49s

  12. #5232
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    3,994

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Phil's games were fun to watch.

    //Lands: 27
    13 Swamp
    3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
    1 Dakmor Salvage
    2 Castle Locthwain
    4 Mishra's Factory
    4 Wasteland

    //Spells: 23
    4 Dark Ritual
    4 Inquisition of Kozilek
    4 Innocent Blood
    4 Smallpox
    2 Hymn to Tourach
    2 Sudden Edict
    3 Pox

    //Planeswalkers: 4
    4 Liliana of the Veil

    //Creatures: 4
    4 Bloodghast

    //Artifacts: 2
    2 Crucible of Worlds

    //Sideboard: 15
    4 Leyline of the Void
    2 Ashiok, Dream Render
    2 Null Rod
    2 Torpor Orb
    2 Engineered Plague
    2 Feed the Swarm
    1 Liliana, the Last Hope


    I'm surprised to see the traditional Mishra's Factory over Urza's Saga. Especially with Crucible of Worlds in the deck. There's lost potential with Currency Converter, which should trigger easily with Poxes and Liliana. There's also no tutorable alternate wincon of The Rack or Cursed Scroll in case the "turn 2/2 sideways" plan fails. Too many Sagas does tie up the mana when the deck is otherwise tight on mana, but maybe a 2/2 split of Saga + Factory is better.

  13. #5233

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Bloodghast looked pretty great in that league. Perhaps I should play those in loam pox over nether spirit. The timing of landfall as opposed to upkeep trigger is also better with currency converter. I would probably cut 2 decays 1 Lilly and a nether spirit for them.

    twitch.tv/sawatrix streamed my deck today to a positive record. He had some great moments including milling a doomsday opponent with witherbloom command for the win.

  14. #5234

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Bloodghast looked pretty great in that league. Perhaps I should play those in loam pox over nether spirit. The timing of landfall as opposed to upkeep trigger is also better with currency converter. I would probably cut 2 decays 1 Lilly and a nether spirit for them.

    twitch.tv/sawatrix streamed my deck today to a positive record. He had some great moments including milling a doomsday opponent with witherbloom command for the win.
    Bloodghast is awesome. I am playing Phil's identical list except swapping out 2 Liliana of the Veil with 2 Sinkhole due to owning only 2 Lilis, and with the 2 Null Rods in the sideboard replaced with 2 Hymn to Tourach and Phil's list is incredibly effective in the current meta. Bloodghast has overperformed for me, despite it being weakened by only playing 2 Liliana of the Veil instead of 4.
    Last edited by Clark Kant; 07-09-2022 at 10:04 PM.

  15. #5235
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    3,994

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Null Rod seems important in the meta (8-cast, TES, Echo storm). Sinkhole is not that good and doesn't replace Lili's role. Why not play the 2 Hymn there instead, then keep Null Rod in the SB?

  16. #5236

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Nether spirit and bloodghast were ok but a bit underwhelming in testing. Should I try kroxa? Kroxa over uro mainly because the deck is base black instead of base green and already has a lot of colourless sources. Kroxa also inherently synergizes better with discard instead of forces like uro does. It would also let me play blasts, which help a ton vs the most important matchups (8cast and delver).

    Between mox and converter we have a lot of 5c sources, so the manabase should function with only 3 changes:
    -2 Boseiju -1 swamp +1 Taiga +2 Badlands. Boseiju was nice but it find I am using it less than I expect.

    Changes to MD would be - 1 thoughtseize - 1 lily -1 spirit -1 converter +3 kroxa +1 pyroblast

  17. #5237

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Alternatively I could try Haunted Dead. Although not very powerful, it is easy to activate and provides roles other than just a finisher. It is another discard outlet for currency converter and it provides flying blockers against delver. Being able to activate at instant speed is nice with decay.

  18. #5238

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    I’m currently going about 60% in leagues which feels good. Bad matchups are 8 cast and moon stompy as predicted. Pharoah has been a great spirit replacement; I looted it with converter to kill a delver and then a delirium drc the next turn. Urborg to a polluted delta to have more green and better early loams. Snuff out was turned into fatal push because of all the life loss from Pharoah. FoV changed to trophy since we don’t have enough green cards; although killing delvers 1 basic Island with it is pretty funny too.


    4 Urza’s Saga
    4 Wasteland
    2 Cabal Pit
    2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawmoth
    2 Boseiju, Who Endures
    2 Barren Moor
    3 Polluted Delta
    4 Verdant Catacombs
    2 Bayou
    1 Forest
    2 Swamp

    4 Currency Converter
    2 Raven’s Crime
    4 Life From the Loam
    4 Mox Diamond
    2 Witherbloom Command
    2 Abrupt Decay
    4 Thoughtseize
    4 Smallpox
    2 Liliana of the Veil
    2 Vengeful Pharoah
    1 Shadowspear
    1 Nihil Spellbomb

    4 Leyline of the Void
    1 Pithing Needle
    3 Chalice of the Void
    1 Worm Harvest
    2 Assassin’s Trophy
    2 Bontu’s Last Reckoning
    2 Fatal Push
    Last edited by Reeplcheep; 07-18-2022 at 01:31 PM.

  19. #5239

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    I finished the first vengeful pharoah league to a 5-0.

    MUs:
    Ouat painter LWW
    Oops all spells WW
    TES LWW
    UR delver WLW
    RUG Midrange WW

  20. #5240
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    3,994

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Great result! I like the Vengeful Pharaoh tech with Currency Converter to discard for value. Free 2/2 while you cycle into a relevant draw and kill their attacker. Works well with Lili too.

    Do you need lifegain to offset all the attacks you take with Pharaoh, especially against aggressive decks? 1-of Zuran Orb is tutorable with Saga. Once Orb is in play, you should be able to sacrifice other Sagas for 2 life while the 3rd ability is on the stack -> free value.

    Is Worm Harvest any good? I thought most Loam Pox cut it years ago for being too slow.

    For 8cast and Moon, what about SB Pernicious Deed? It will kill your own stuff but also kills all their artifact lands, Urza's Sagas, Moxes and prison pieces. I think 1-for-1s (Decay, Trophy) won't be enough to get you there. Deed conveniently gets you out of Null Rod effects too. If not Deed, maybe Ratchet Bomb? It's easier to cast under Blood Moon and can kill enchantments (unlike Powder Keg), but doesn't kill artifact lands or Urza's Saga and will be shut off by Null Rods. Either should also be good vs go-wide decks like Elves and 2/2 spammers (where your core engine is too slow to disrupt).

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)