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Thread: [Primer/Deck] Pox

  1. #5161

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    *copied from my reddit post*

    Hey everyone, last week, I took Pox to a 5-0 recently in a MTGO League and this isn't 5-0ing with a "bad deck", this is performing with a now improved deck. To back up my claim there is others performing with Pox currently and most notably the Japanese Pox player, Irei Kazuo who has performed well in at least 3 of his Legacy events within the last couple months. Why is this? I think its because he is on the best variant that uses Karn, the Great Creator that is now further strengthened by the likes of Urza's Saga. The reason why its often called a bad deck is that not everyone playing Pox wants to adopt new strategies as they arise since they want to play the old cards that use to perform well and that is fine as they want to have fun with the deck and enjoy the nostalgia, but for the sake of performance I will play the most competitive Pox variant that is available. Pox has 3 card advantage engines that thrive in the deck, Karn the Great Creator, Urza's, Saga, and Castle Locthwain. This gives Pox a great balance now between card draw and card selection while also providing efficient finishers to close out games. This is where Pox was weak in recent past is that the deck was often built too focused on one for one disruption when decks could outpace it in card advantage so it had to utilize newer card advantage engines to keep up or it would simply fall behind.

    I should also note Pox has some of the most efficient creature removal spells in the game and discard to cause the opponent to stumble and actual quality win conditions to help follow up on that. To compliment on Pox's creature removal package are powerful hate cards in the sideboard that often see play now like Dystopia which in the right meta can be super powerful as it answers cards Pox has trouble interacting with like Sylvan Library and Klothys. It is able to create an early lead with Dark Ritual and powering out the Planeswalkers early and the card advantage engines within the deck compensate for the card disadvantage here. Pox is also somewhat favored vs the most popular deck in Legacy as of now that is UR Delver that also helps the Pox deck.

    I should also clear things up, Pox is a budget deck in terms of Legacy costing even less than some of the Modern decks out there as the Legends cards are nowhere as potent as they once were. They're normally just jammed in lists because they're fun and not because they're optimal.

    I don't know if my post is formatted properly or even if my grammar is good, but if you have any questions regarding the Pox deck, I may be able to provide answers for you.

    My Tournament

    Bant Control 2-0
    Infect 2-1
    Turbo Depths 2-0
    2-1 Reanimator
    2-0 Miracles

    Yes there was a degree of luck, but everyone needs at least some luck to 5-0 I think.

    My deck 5-0: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/4209592#paper
    Irei Kazuo 5-0: https://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/4193414#paper

    I hope this convinces more of you to play Karn Pox as it is the best variant.

  2. #5162
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Interesting, thanks!

  3. #5163
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Congratulations on your win!
    Three Lilianas to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all and in the Sinkhole bind them!

  4. #5164
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Interesting deck.

    Could you explain your changes compared to what Irei is playing ? Are they just meta calls or there are other reasons ?

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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Urza's Saga looks good here. Between that and Hive, there's a significant boost to the "manland" strategy giving Pox more ways to end the game.

    Saga -> Foundry is a good wincon

    What about Saga -> The Rack? That could represent significant direct damage outside the combat step, especially later in the game. Cursed Scroll is great too for different reasons.

  6. #5166
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by FTW View Post
    Urza's Saga looks good here. Between that and Hive, there's a significant boost to the "manland" strategy giving Pox more ways to end the game.

    Saga -> Foundry is a good wincon

    What about Saga -> The Rack? That could represent significant direct damage outside the combat step, especially later in the game. Cursed Scroll is great too for different reasons.
    The Rack in this scenario is exceptional as opposing Karns can't stop it and if you're a fan of Null Rod, your own Rod won't hinder it. Sadly, it does shut off Cursed Scroll which can't be used vs. opposing Karns.
    Three Lilianas to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all and in the Sinkhole bind them!

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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Hi.
    I also think that Urza's Saga and Castle Locthwain are great addittions to the deck (I play 3xeach) but I still don't get the point of Karn, the great creator. I mean, it costs , needs a dedicated sideboard and the other "combo" piece costs (Mycosynth Lattice) which I see a bit high for a deck that plays Wasteland, Smallpox and Urza's saga. Can you explain that choice, please?
    Thanks.

  8. #5168
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Reivaj View Post
    Hi.
    I also think that Urza's Saga and Castle Locthwain are great addittions to the deck (I play 3xeach) but I still don't get the point of Karn, the great creator. I mean, it costs , needs a dedicated sideboard and the other "combo" piece costs (Mycosynth Lattice) which I see a bit high for a deck that plays Wasteland, Smallpox and Urza's saga. Can you explain that choice, please?
    Thanks.
    More often than not, I see the wish for Liquid Metal Coating and then infinite LD per turn. Or they coat a nuisance and pox it away.
    Three Lilianas to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all and in the Sinkhole bind them!

  9. #5169
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by OmniStrata View Post
    More often than not, I see the wish for Liquid Metal Coating and then infinite LD per turn. Or they coat a nuisance and pox it away.
    Hi.
    Ok, so basically we need a turn 4 Karn, the great creator on a threatless board and spend on fifth turn to get a "free" Sinkhole every turn we can protect the combo. Do you think this "combo" is a reliable finisher against current meta (UR Delver, D&T and BANT)?
    Thanks in advance.

  10. #5170

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Reivaj View Post
    Hi.
    Ok, so basically we need a turn 4 Karn, the great creator on a threatless board and spend on fifth turn to get a "free" Sinkhole every turn we can protect the combo.
    No, we don't need to power him out turn 4. We can do what pox does for a bazillion turns, topdeck him and then do something impactful with a variety of wish targets. Lattice or Coating are just two examples. Lattice can in fact close out games rather abruptly, this is something Pox ususally struggles with. So that is nice. Ritualing him out turn 2, to turn off stormdecks' artifacts is also nice. Followed by wished up Trinisphere. I think there are loads of applications for him.
    But you don't really seem to like him, so why bother running? I'm not running him in my Pox deck either, but mainly because I already run him successfully in 2 other decks.. Painter and Dragon Stompy. I don't want all my decks to look the same and feel like he's doing even better in those, then in Pox anyways.
    Bear in mind, I've just recently build the deck and I'm constantly losing with Pox.. so what do I know..

    Edit: Friend of mine ran a Karn centered stompyesque Pox deck with local success. Ancient Tombs, Chrome Moxes, Chalices, Trinispheres - the usual suspects. Powering out Trinisphere followed by Nethervoid + land destruction and discard. Now, as I'm typing, I think the deck was closer to MBC than Pox. I don't think he ran Smallpox.. But in this build I was really impressed with Karn's performance.
    Last edited by Grizzlenasty; 08-24-2021 at 01:42 AM.

  11. #5171
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Grizzlenasty View Post
    No, we don't need to power him out turn 4. We can do what pox does for a bazillion turns, topdeck him and then do something impactful with a variety of wish targets. Lattice or Coating are just two examples. Lattice can in fact close out games rather abruptly, this is something Pox ususally struggles with. So that is nice. Ritualing him out turn 2, to turn off stormdecks' artifacts is also nice. Followed by wished up Trinisphere. I think there are loads of applications for him.
    But you don't really seem to like him, so why bother running? I'm not running him in my Pox deck either, but mainly because I already run him successfully in 2 other decks.. Painter and Dragon Stompy. I don't want all my decks to look the same and feel like he's doing even better in those, then in Pox anyways.
    Bear in mind, I've just recently build the deck and I'm constantly losing with Pox.. so what do I know..

    Edit: Friend of mine ran a Karn centered stompyesque Pox deck with local success. Ancient Tombs, Chrome Moxes, Chalices, Trinispheres - the usual suspects. Powering out Trinisphere followed by Nethervoid + land destruction and discard. Now, as I'm typing, I think the deck was closer to MBC than Pox. I don't think he ran Smallpox.. But in this build I was really impressed with Karn's performance.
    Sorry Girizzlenasty, don't get me wrong. I don't have an opinion on Karn, the great creator because I haven't tested it yet so I want to know other players experiences with him. As you pointed out, there are a lot of scenarios where he can be great so I think I must give it a try, in fact, the most recent lists on top8's use it. Otoh I've also lost a lot of games with Pox for the lack of proper finishers and I've tested multiples (Chimeric Idol, Cursed Scroll, Waste not, The rack, Mishra's Factory,etc) all of them being inferior to Karn so who knows...
    I'm currently testing Urza's Saga to get The rack which paired with Liliana of the veil can end games.
    Thanks.

  12. #5172

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Not everyone agrees that karn makes sense in pox. Karn is very much a “big game” card and smallpox is the ultimate “small game” card. You need to pick 1 game plan.

    Smallpox, Liliana, wasteland are all about grinding the opponent out. You are focused on card quantity not card quality. imo this don’t make any sense with karn.

    If you are playing chalice, ancient tomb, chrome mox than all you care about is slowing down the opponent and then jamming some expensive thing. This is a card quality fight and karn is great. But then your deck should look more like my curses than normal pox.

    I think karn pox is fundementally flawed from a theory POV. Like playing lava spike in Jeskai control. Or hymn in RB burn. Or tabernacle in storm.

    Urza’s saga/rack/bitterblossom all make much more sense as finishers for a “small game” deck like pox. They are cheap, self contained, hard to remove, and are best when the opponent has little resources. Karn by contrast is expensive, easy to interact with, needs a lot of support for extra mana and board control, and is at his best when both people have lots of resources. (With infinite mana you can get bridge and then lattice to beat basically any board)

  13. #5173

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Reivaj View Post
    I don't have an opinion on Karn, the great creator
    I have one. I don't like him, because I've seen him doing better in other decks.

    Basically +1 what reeplcheep said. But I also see why people want to run him and their success and my lack thereof might prove me wrong.

  14. #5174

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Sorry been inactive, I am currently working on deck tech for Pox with another site that goes over the Pox archtype and recent 5-0s and Challenge Top 32 that Irei Kazuo did with Karn Pox. Since Modern Horizons 2 where I added Urza Saga here are my tournament results for every tournament I put money/prize.

    Wins 29 Losses 25

    MTGO Leagues
    2-3
    5-0
    3-2
    3-2
    3-2
    4-1
    3-2
    2-3
    2-3

    Local Events
    2-4

    Preliminary
    0-3

    Most of the wins were due to Urza Saga so I consider it a must play 2-3 of at least like how Mishra's Factory is a must. I am very time and money invested in the Karn Pox deck, I prefer it over other Mono Black variants because it maximizes on card advantage, card selection, and finishing games efficiently by utilizing both Urza Saga and Karn. Why I like it? Its really good at shifting gears. Urza Saga enables the deck to get aggresive combat finishes where Karn Pox use to really struggle at and when I am getting defensive Karn the Great Creator is a wonderful candidate for that as it is effective winning outside of combat.

    How exactly is Karn functioning in Pox? If you played this variation you would know as the card can win out of nowhere. Karn's power level as a walker is comparable to Jace the Mind Sculptor if that alerts anyone and despite Urza Saga taxing mana the Karn Pox deck is doing better than ever before because you're utilizing artifact synergy with Pox. There has been multiple instances where I was able to protect Karn by turning an in play artifact into a blocker and then follow up with a Bridge or something else. I think a lot of people overlook that, but the older Karn Pox builds cannot really do that because Oko/Uro made most artifacts really bad. Urza's Saga makes them really good. The game 1 one-sided Null rod really comes in handy with Vial decks, artifact based combo decks, etc. in the meta. Do not totally dismiss this variant again someone topped a challenge with it so it certainly has potential. Think of Urza Saga as Plan A and Karn as Plan B for finishing games. The days of trying to grind it out with slow clock are kinda over when you have to prepare for Uro and such so that's a Plan C for me. Pox is in a decent spot in the meta and if I stop misplaying I know my winrate will shoot up. You have to be on Urza's Saga to see the full strengths of the deck though followed by the performing variants which are right now Karn Pox and Loam Pox both utilizing Urza Saga well. These will continue to do well in my opinion for some time.

  15. #5175

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...28#bwangeroo_-

    Loam pox has been doing decently well recently. Is that the way forward for the deck? Witherbloom command and saga seem to make this variety much stronger than in the past.

  16. #5176

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    https://magic.wizards.com/en/article...28#bwangeroo_-

    Loam pox has been doing decently well recently. Is that the way forward for the deck? Witherbloom command and saga seem to make this variety much stronger than in the past.
    Loam Pox is much stronger than what it was in recent past. Unlike Mono Black it is able to recover better after self taxing itself thanks to the loam engine. I think more will fall on it due to the few results it got recently which is more than the rare occasional result that shows up. Recycling Urza's Saga is nothing to over look and a strength of the deck. Though Mono Black is really cheap in comparison and Ritualing out a Liliana/Ashiok on turn one or Karn turn two is nothing to overlook either. Legends cards in Pox get less and less competitive as the days go on so if you have money for those I recommend shelling out into color splashes first.

    I think the Loam Pox deck could peform more it is a lot pricier in comparison.

  17. #5177

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    I know this will make a lot of you Poxers upset, but I think the reason why Legends cards aren't performing well in competitive Magic is just due to how powerful Legacy has become. If Legends were good, Adachi Ryosuke would be able to put in results, but I don't think a lot of you people even know who he is.

    Nether Voids feel out of place when Karn is a lock piece, win condition, card advantage engine, and card selection engine in one. Then there is also Waker of the Dead to work with like a tech. Before this Nether Void had no competition in the 4 mana slot really so it was easy to slot in.

    Pox has adopted draw engines on its own so Chains of Mephistopheles nonbo can be weird at times.

    Tabernacle has been harder to slot in since the mana base is so crowded now, Castle Locthwains and Urza's Saga have become must plays so Pox has less room for land tech cards.

    Karn Pox basically became the new Legends Pox deck since the 4 mana slot is also occupied by a lock piece that does more than just locking games.

    I think Pox can do better, but we have to play new good cards as they come out. A lot of you seem to be behind so I recommend checking other places where you can consistently retrieve new data. There is a Loam Pox deck floating around that 5-0'd twice recently ReeplCheap shared in MTGO Leagues and also took down a 7 player weekly. It might outperform any variant in Mono Black for all I know because combining Loam engine and Urza just seems outright busted.

  18. #5178

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    You Pox players aren't going to like this, but Karn Pox and Loam seem to be doing the best in terms of variants, but also Hogaak Pox got in the 80s range of in a 350 Legacy Event Legacy Pit event. Looks like if we keep trying to make old cards work we likely won't do well and you have to adopt new strategies or fall behind. I've been doing decent at my weeklies with Karn Pox and kept up to some degree in MTGO Leagues with it too. Its not the Pox you all grew up on, but its far better than you Pox players think it is and I think the Pox results are skewed because most of you are on dated decks and aren't willing to take the more winning lists available on the table

  19. #5179
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    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by BlogBoy View Post
    You Pox players aren't going to like this, but Karn Pox and Loam seem to be doing the best in terms of variants, but also Hogaak Pox got in the 80s range of in a 350 Legacy Event Legacy Pit event. Looks like if we keep trying to make old cards work we likely won't do well and you have to adopt new strategies or fall behind. I've been doing decent at my weeklies with Karn Pox and kept up to some degree in MTGO Leagues with it too. Its not the Pox you all grew up on, but its far better than you Pox players think it is and I think the Pox results are skewed because most of you are on dated decks and aren't willing to take the more winning lists available on the table
    Prison Pox seems the wrong approach... Combo perhaps?

    Maybe, we drop the deck altogether cause WotC doesn't like prisons? Yet they print Echo of Eons & Oko & Hull Breacher... a Stax variant maybe the only way in this scenario. The power creep is real. Pox was originally designed to be budget friendly barring the Legends cards on the reserved list.
    Three Lilianas to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all and in the Sinkhole bind them!

  20. #5180

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by OmniStrata View Post
    Prison Pox seems the wrong approach... Combo perhaps?

    Maybe, we drop the deck altogether cause WotC doesn't like prisons? Yet they print Echo of Eons & Oko & Hull Breacher... a Stax variant maybe the only way in this scenario. The power creep is real. Pox was originally designed to be budget friendly barring the Legends cards on the reserved list.
    I wouldn't say its the wrong approach, but also wouldn't say it is the only right approach. I think the newer Prison Pox variants with Karn and Ashiok accomplish the goal pretty decently. Its been functionally better than Legends Pox is in current Legacy. Karn hoses artifacts that Pox has trouble interacting with game one while finding tools you need and thats a step up and now doesn't even have to rely on Karn as now the Plan A is Urza's Saga, but Karn and Ashiok are good Plan B to win. I think if you want Mono Black Combo you play DeTH it did top 32 Legacy Pit event recently.

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