Interesting build. Did you feel like the inclusion of Mox Diamonds didnt really advance your deck?
I'm interested in this as well. I enjoy the idea of going all in on smallpox and removing the DD combo. As someone once told me: 'if you're going to do somethng with your deck, you should be the best deck doing that thing.'Originally Posted by Fjaulnir
In other words:
We can't possibly be a faster DD combo deck than turbo depths. Nor can we be a better DD control deck (rg combo lands).
What we can be, I'm pretty sure, is the best resource denial deck.
I'm particular intrigued by the idea of collective brutality and maximixing our graveyard happy cards. I think, if someone slams a rest in peace, we proceed by playing a comparitvely fair game until we find an Abrupt decay. If Surgical is the greater concern, maybe we pack more Crop rotations so we can Bojuka Bog ourselves in respose (a la r/g combo lands).
Keep me posted with some match by match results.
Biggest question I have about your build is do you have a particular reason for not having cabal pit and (to a lesser extent) tabernacle? It feels to me like, if you're going to cast loam, you should at least consider the ability to recursively keep creatures in check, and I'm interested in your view on that.
Great losses often bring only a numb shock. To truly plunge a victim into misery, you must overwhelm him with many small sufferings."
—Ratadrabik of Urborg
I'm sorry, but this is just downright horrible logic. The opportunity cost of adding an oops I win combo (or alternatively, a way to close out the game without needing 8-9 turns for bloodghast / mishra beats) is so low, especially in loam pox, that it would be foolish not to run it. This "rule" is not a rule, and it has many violations throughout legacy, because thats not worthwhile advice in many scenarios.
Fair enough. We certainly are not the best dark depths deck though, that's for sure.
Anyway, it's worth considering that if we intend on building a deck around the card smallpox, we should be facilitating that card and enhancing that card as much as possible. A loam package, and therefore dark depths, was a really great idea; however, other than Kennen Haas, we rarely ever have major success. Sure you can point to an event once every 6 months to a year, but at that rate, it could just be fortunate spiking of an event.
Anyway, I do find the idea of a second smallpox-like card, such as collective brutality, being added to the deck and going more all-in withe graveyard happy cards.
I think his build could be strong with cabal pit, darkblast and Tabernacle. Perhaps, replacing the bloodghast with 2/2 stage and depths is a stronger build. In that case you fit in a Nether Spirit.
What do you think?
Actually, the opportunity cost isn't as low as you'd think. For every 'bonus' one adds to Pox decks, you remove disruption. When people suggest the DD combo, I'm reminded of another old school control/combo shell. High Tide.
Combo decks utilize a setup which includes cantrips, hard draw engines, tutors, and lastly anti-disruption like Cabal Therapy or Duress. When you get the combo, you have less black producing mana in the deck [stage depths]. I was a fan of the Vampire Sexmage setup with Dark Depths but the newer Stage Depths setup is obviously harder to disrupt.
Oops I win detracts from the control side of Pox which as was already discussed isn't very strong. What Legacy really lacks is a mega huge semi-creature that can dodge symmetrical effects and doesn't cost anything to punch your enemy's face with. Best of which was Chimeric Idol but 3 damage a turn doesn't seem to impress anyone. (unless you Pox+Smallpox someone, then your 7 turn clock becomes a 4 turn horror)
At the end of the day, play what works for you. I'll admit, I suck with combo bonuses in my Pox deck. Even had some fun time with Helm of Obedience Leyline combos. I also don't want to color splash cause I definitely spend more time durdling when doing so. My Golgari flavored Pox attempts weren't very tasty. There is some logic staying mono color. Tom [the Boss] Ross did so with his Rack Pox last year and Reid Duke's older article stated, "However, Pox is able to operate on very little land (a reason for staying monocolor)".
Think of it this way, what deck is capable of functioning under the worst case scenario (little-no resources)? Combo decks least likely and control decks most likely. Hence why I build my Pox to be as controlling as possible. Sadly, we can't compete with the consistency of Miracles but I keep fighting against it as it's probably my worst matchup. One tidbit, my rival who pilots Miracles specifically (Monastery Mentor tri-color version) says that Chimeric is probably the most annoying threat as it's the only one 'buff' enough to to kill Jace. Scrolls, factories, and spirits, at 2 power alone won't do it. I still say Jace is broken... +2 for that Fateseal really?!
Three Lilianas to rule them all. One Pox to find them. Smallpox to bring them all and in the Sinkhole bind them!
A lot of your reasoning is why I'm trying mono black next. Fatal Push is brand new and could deal with those awkward death and taxes matchups where targeted and instant speed removal is absolutely necessary. I truly believe that lost legacy could be very helpful out of the board in dark ritual builds. If you are running trinisphere and lost legacy, there's many lines of play to severely hamper your combo opponent on turn one.Actually, the opportunity cost isn't as low as you'd think. For every 'bonus' one adds to Pox decks, you remove disruption. When people suggest the DD combo, I'm reminded of another old school control/combo shell. High Tide.
Combo decks utilize a setup which includes cantrips, hard draw engines, tutors, and lastly anti-disruption like Cabal Therapy or Duress. When you get the combo, you have less black producing mana in the deck [stage depths]. I was a fan of the Vampire Sexmage setup with Dark Depths but the newer Stage Depths setup is obviously harder to disrupt.
Oops I win detracts from the control side of Pox which as was already discussed isn't very strong. What Legacy really lacks is a mega huge semi-creature that can dodge symmetrical effects and doesn't cost anything to punch your enemy's face with. Best of which was Chimeric Idol but 3 damage a turn doesn't seem to impress anyone. (unless you Pox+Smallpox someone, then your 7 turn clock becomes a 4 turn horror)
At the end of the day, play what works for you. I'll admit, I suck with combo bonuses in my Pox deck. Even had some fun time with Helm of Obedience Leyline combos. I also don't want to color splash cause I definitely spend more time durdling when doing so. My Golgari flavored Pox attempts weren't very tasty. There is some logic staying mono color. Tom [the Boss] Ross did so with his Rack Pox last year and Reid Duke's older article stated, "However, Pox is able to operate on very little land (a reason for staying monocolor)".
Think of it this way, what deck is capable of functioning under the worst case scenario (little-no resources)? Combo decks least likely and control decks most likely. Hence why I build my Pox to be as controlling as possible. Sadly, we can't compete with the consistency of Miracles but I keep fighting against it as it's probably my worst matchup. One tidbit, my rival who pilots Miracles specifically (Monastery Mentor tri-color version) says that Chimeric is probably the most annoying threat as it's the only one 'buff' enough to to kill Jace. Scrolls, factories, and spirits, at 2 power alone won't do it. I still say Jace is broken... +2 for that Fateseal really?!
1. Dark ritual into Thoughtseize /hymn
2. Dark Ritual into Trinisphere (vs storm type decks )
3. Dark Ritual into lost legacy vs any deck with limited win cons.
Also worth noting, I think Pithing needle and ratchet Bomb both need to be at least 2 x in the 75. The problem permanent top decks can be anticipated and answered by these cards (jace tms, for example).
Seems like you and I have reached similar deck philosophies...although I do like the opps I win Stage/Depths combo.
Have you ever thought of running 2x Cabal Therapy in place of 2x Raven's Crime? I'm running them myself and quite pleased...trying to find room for the 4th Bloodghast and 2x Fatal Push...
I like Mox Diamond, and I use it in my Chalice Loam Pox build, but here I don't because I'm running the Pernicious Deeds. It could be that going all in and replacing the Deeds with them could make it even tighter a build. I'll do some test runs to see.
It's true that Lands is the best lands and Turbo Depths gets Marit Lage out fastest, but I like the disruption and pressure of Pox style. I've played Turbo Depths, and I just came back to keeping the opponent disrupted and on their heels enough that they have no time or resources to worry what I'm doing until their board and hand is a mess and they are staring down a 20/20. For this I've always liked my old Chalice Loam Pox build, that some old timers on this board may remember from a couple of years ago. I've tweaked it a little bit over the past couple of years but mostly it is what it is for the moment. I had some decent success with it, as did a couple of guys I collaborated on it with on another board. That was even being competitive back in Treasure Cruise days. I still trot it out every now and then and it is still a vicious punch to the face. I encourage you to try it if you like using Dark Depths in a Loam Pox shell.
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Mox Diamond
1 Trinisphere
2 Sylvan Library
1 The Abyss
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Hymn to Tourach
3 Life from the Loam
4 Living Wish
3 Smallpox
3 Sinkhole
4 Bayou
3 Dark Depths
1 Forest
2 Swamp
3 Thespian's Stage
4 Urborg,* Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
Sideboard
2 Trinisphere
4 Leyline of the Void
1 Tombstalker
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Vampire Hexmage
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Maze of Ith
2 Toxic Deluge
2 Krosan Grip
That's pretty much the way you have to play it.
The other thing you can do, and I've done this before in Loam Pox builds that really need the Loam is to use a Sensei's Divining Top or two, and tap it to draw and dredge back up your Loam and top deck the top. Works pretty well, but only enough room for so much stuff in a deck.
You are right , and I've moved Cabal Pit in and out of the deck, mostly in order to have a second Swamp. But maybe the other person was right in that with Mox Diamonds you could stabilize Mana against Blood Moon and back to Basics. That makes me wonder if Cabal Pit, especially without a lot of Crop Rotation to tutor it might be better than Maze, though blocking a Goyf or other large creature till they sac it is nice, though hey I'm not running Nether Spirit either.
I don't own Tabernacle but I tell myself consolingly, even if I did, I wouldn't want to pay for all those Bloodghasts I entombed and Loam ed up, but if I had a Tabernacle I would probably suck it up and aim to Loam up a couple more lands to pay for them, and Bloodghasts get haste under 10 life anyway .
My problem with it was getting people down to 9 life or so with traditional Pox stuff and Factories, and then a combo for 20pts. to win. Great, you won, I guess that worked efficiently. Having Factories and Depths in same deck ,one mus become the plan B option.
Yeah, Cabal Therapy could be very good too, though it is harder to see the hand as well with only Collective Brutality instead of Thoughtseize or G Probe. I think replacing a Raven's Crime or two with them might be a good move.
True enough. At some point you'd be better off sleeving up Lands or Turbo Depths. I made sure in my Depths Pox games to ensure they had no hand for any surprises to disrupt my combo, or no white land to cast a Swords.
Piling up the cards when building my deck I figured this is the core:
4 Bloodghast
3 shrieking affliction
1 The Rack
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Pox
12 Swamp
4 bloodstained mire
1 polluted delta
That's 37 cards. Now, following the motto for Pox builds I should find 23 cards that either disrupt, does damage or provide mana. Any ideas?
"Pox early, Pox often, and Pox hard!" - Le_Lepreux
Just curious what your reasoning is on playing 3 Shrieking Affliction over 3 The Rack.
While the damage can't be prevented and it may be harder to remove, I think the advantage that The Rack deals damage even at two cards and that it can redirect its damage to planeswalkers seems to be more convincing, don't you agree? Also if you're playing non-black lands it may be easier to cast.
With these Loam Pox builds, I think a Ghost Quarter or two is essential. I'd consider cutting the Sinkholes for them. In playtesting with the Bloodghast build posted above yesterday, something like Miracles can easily wiggle out of a depleted board state with a few basics and a Top and come back to win. Meanwhile, you're either sitting there with a bunch of Wastelands or Loaming into absolutely nothing. Miracles only runs 2 plains generally, not to mention screwing up Ponder and Top stacks.
I don't see much reason to run Loam if you don't have either Waste+GQ or Depths package. This deck doesn't really abuse it well enough from what I've seen, unless you start putting in cycle lands.
If you cut the Depths package, consider using Noetic Scales in the side. Lands can't beat it at all unless they get their Krosan Grips, past that beat the punishing fires/vortex and they can't win at all. Miracles similarly can't win with a Scales on the board outside of Jace...although you would end up giving them endless Snapcasters.
I think I would prefer ensnaring bridge to now tic scales, mostly because it does the same basic thing for one less mana, but also has very relevant text against elves/D&T, and sneak and show variants.
Great losses often bring only a numb shock. To truly plunge a victim into misery, you must overwhelm him with many small sufferings."
—Ratadrabik of Urborg
Played a 4 round weekly with this list:
1 Nether Spirit
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Ob Nixilis of the Black Oath
=4
4 Smallpox
4 Liliana of the Veil
3 Sinkhole
1 Crucible of Worlds
=12
4 Thoughtseize
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
=12
4 Innocent Blood
3 Fatal Push
1 Toxic Deluge
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Diabolic Edict*
=11
10 Swamps
4 Wasteland
2 Mishra's Factory
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Sea Gate Wreckage
1 Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Cabal Pit
=21
1 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Chains of Mephistopheles
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Lost Legacy
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needles
2 Duress
1 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Trinisphere
1 The Abyss
I went 2-2
Rd 1 vs Aluren.
G1, I soft locked him out early with a dark ritual into Liliana of the Veil. He chained together quite a few creatures in a row, including 2 coiling oracle which hit creatures, thankfull. He eventually drew Abrupt decay and clocked me for many turns with a single coiling oracle. I killed it, and destroyed every many source he had in his deck and he scooped.
G2
He played Tropical and passed. I had one one black mana source but two wastelands and a mishras factory which I thought might be decent and I hoped I'd draw a black mana source to cast the rest of my hand. I Wasteland him and he brainstormed and found one more land but was basically mana screwed out of the game. I clocked him with Nether Spirit and had a Liliana in play as well. Near the end of the game I played a night of Souls betrayal to slow my clock but remove some outs. I don't know it was necessary, I think it would have been better to just stop ticking up Liliana or to discard the night.
Rd 2 vs jund. Lose 0-2
G1 I mulled to 5. My 5 card hand was 2 Swamps, hymn, liliana, ob nixilis. Ob Nixilis feels a little like progenitus in your opening hand. Or maybe it's a better comparison to call it batterskull. It's a card that you on my want to draw later when you're ready for it. More of that later, though. G1, I very nearly pulled. It came down to dueling lilianas. He eventually had a set of top decks that was fairly ideal (something like Abrupt decay, bloodbraid elf, creatures off of bloodbraid) and won. However, in typical pox fashion, had my top deck been kind to me over a couple of turns prior to this sequence, I think I would have come out as the winner, despite the mulls. I think I drew land, land, Thoughtseize Thoughtseize hymn hymn or something, during a critical juncture of the game.
G2, I responded to his first turn Deathrite Shaman on my turn with Innocent blood, wasteland. He proceeded to play his next land and pass. On my turn, I thoughtseized and saw life from the loam and sylvan library and some other stuff. I took the library, I think. Regardless, he ripped a land and won the game with loam.
Rd 3 vs bug leovold splash white. 0-2
G1, I had my opponent soft locked with liliana and mana hate. He drew land and Abrupt decay and took out Liliana and some point. I proceeded to draw 5 straight lands and 3 discard spells while he drew 3 or 4 creatures and won.
G2, I kept a hand with a single black mana source and a wasteland and never drew the second black mana source.
Rd 4 vs punishing maverick 2-0
G1 I won with a dark ritual into Liliana and plenty of relevant creature hate and mana hate. I think I killed every knight of the reliquary in the deck.
G2, I won with the tandem of Liliana and Ob Nixilis. The 5/5 flier killed his Garruk and I picked off two 2/2 wolf tokens on hehe same turn. Using his remaining knight, he killed ob nixilis because Liliana was at 1 counter. I drew a removal spell and won.
Notes:
- Ratchet Bomb is very good, I could see running 2 main deck.
- my list needed more lands. I was running 20 true mana producing lands, and 12 real black sources. I think it should be upped to 22 and 14. Dark ritual was impressive at times, but also was the first thing I sided out in fair matchups, maybe some room could be made there and I could approach the combo matchups differently?
- ob nixilis of the Black Oath seems like it should be much better than ob nixilis reignited. It's second ability is a really excellent clock and it's ultimate seems pretty outrageous and not too far fetched considering we are a resource denial deck. However, I think either version probably suffers the same fate of sitting in our hand and often getting discarded to Liliana. Should it just be in the sideboard for use against grindy matchups? (Miracles/Shardless ?)
- Sea Gate Wreckage was really cool. It was really nice cycling through poor draws to dig to relevant spells. This deck needs more cards that fit well into the deck that can do this.
- per usual, losing when you have an opponent soft locked, is still the bane of the deck. Maybe a color splash fixes it, but I feel like I really relied on being somewhat Wasteland proof.
Thoughts?
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