Page 257 of 259 FirstFirst ... 157207247253254255256257258259 LastLast
Results 5,121 to 5,140 of 5179

Thread: [Primer/Deck] Pox

  1. #5121

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Grief is the force of will this deck always wanted, since it is unmask that actually is a decent top deck/hard cast.

    It will be better in gaak or some ephermate deck, but if this doesn’t make pox much better the deck is unsalvageable.

  2. #5122
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    Hell in a Nutshell
    Posts

    5,220

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Agree 100%. This is creature-based disruption in a deck that cares more about tempo than card disadvantage (Dark Ritual in a non-combo deck.) I think it's an auto-4 in any interation of Pox, and I think it pushes Liliana, the Last Hope as a better option due to the Disentomb ability.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  3. #5123

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Im prepared to eat my words here but I don't think the card is good in pox at all

    The deck really does not want to 2-for-1 itself to make this kind of trade so the unmask half of the card seems really poor

    Of course if you topdeck it when you have 4 mana then it's fine as a kind of really chunky ravenous rats but putting it in the deck makes your nether spirits awkward and more importantly there's so many other better 4drops/expensive-cards available (like the 2BB Liliana or Ensnaring Bridge or whatever)

    also if you play Ensnaring Bridge (which I think is good) then a 3/2 menace isn't even relevant anyway

    It's 2 effects that really aren't good (for this archetype) and even combining them onto 1 modal card doesn't mean that it makes the cut for the deck imo

  4. #5124
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    Hell in a Nutshell
    Posts

    5,220

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Yeah, I think you're right, after reconsidering. I just got excited about the synergy with Lily TLH 2nd ability. I was also thinking that a non-combo deck that plays dark Ritual probably doesn't care as much about card disadvantage, however, the play with Ritual needs to be worth 2 cards. You make good points.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  5. #5125

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Safety View Post
    Yeah, I think you're right, after reconsidering. I just got excited about the synergy with Lily TLH 2nd ability. I was also thinking that a non-combo deck that plays dark Ritual probably doesn't care as much about card disadvantage, however, the play with Ritual needs to be worth 2 cards. You make good points.
    I do think it could be a really good card for the mono B reanimator / depths deck
    - Unmask is more realistically a card that you want to play
    - You have reanimate spells in the deck to reanimate the 3/2 as a plan B if you can't find a Entomb etc
    - Compared to normal reanimator you also have more of a plan b of playing swamps and hardcasting your stuff

  6. #5126
    A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry.
    PirateKing's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2011
    Location

    BEST JERSEY
    Posts

    1,528

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by kombatkiwi View Post
    Im prepared to eat my words here but I don't think the card is good in pox at all
    I've been holding back as everybody has gone bonkers over this card, wondering what I'm missing. People keep talking the the Evoke cost is nothing or otherwise inconsequential, "look at all the black cards I wasn't going to cast anyway!". Maybe for other decks, but not Pox. First turn discard is already a resource we have plenty of, and this is only advantageous if you were planning on doing something else on turn 1. If it's putting Griselbrand into play or resolving Doomsday, sure, sounds great. But the Pox turn 1 play is Thoughtseize, so we're just clean up a card over this. I don't get it.
    Sure you could devote 3 cards and DOUBLE Thoughtseize them! Wowee says the deck running Dark Ritual and Hymn to Tourach and oh also Thoughtseize. So again, doing something already available, but worse.

    Decks that ran Unmask did so for reasons, a simple body attached to the never-played half of the card doesn't change the metrics much.

    I'm excited to be proven wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  7. #5127

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    I've been holding back as everybody has gone bonkers over this card, wondering what I'm missing. People keep talking the the Evoke cost is nothing or otherwise inconsequential, "look at all the black cards I wasn't going to cast anyway!". Maybe for other decks, but not Pox. First turn discard is already a resource we have plenty of, and this is only advantageous if you were planning on doing something else on turn 1. If it's putting Griselbrand into play or resolving Doomsday, sure, sounds great. But the Pox turn 1 play is Thoughtseize, so we're just clean up a card over this. I don't get it.
    Sure you could devote 3 cards and DOUBLE Thoughtseize them! Wowee says the deck running Dark Ritual and Hymn to Tourach and oh also Thoughtseize. So again, doing something already available, but worse.

    Decks that ran Unmask did so for reasons, a simple body attached to the never-played half of the card doesn't change the metrics much.

    I'm excited to be proven wrong.
    If we shouldn’t play this card because we can play thoughtseize instead, why does control play fon then when they could hold up spell Pierce and be up a card?

    Obviously the tempo aspects are not the same, but it is much better to hardcast than the blue forces.

  8. #5128

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    If we shouldn’t play this card because we can play thoughtseize instead, why does control play fon then when they could hold up spell Pierce and be up a card?

    Obviously the tempo aspects are not the same, but it is much better to hardcast than the blue forces.
    The dynamics of counterspells vs discard are too different I think, you can't just characterize them both as "0 mana one-for-two to answer my opponent's card"

    - "The tempo aspects are not the same" is a pretty big factor
    - With counterspells you have the ability to sit back and hold counters in your hand to answer opp topdecks at any point. You can tap out for your cantrips and hold up Force as needed. With this deck you can tap out for your thoughtseize, then unmask to thoughtseize again? Not as effective of a strategy
    - Force works if your opponent tries to fuck you up turn 1 on the play, thoughtseize/pierce/unmask all don't
    - Non-tempo Force decks also have card advantage sources to offset the 1-for-2, Pox kind of doesn't
    - Late topdeck Force means you have the mana to hardcast it, kind of similar situation with this card but because it's not a reactive card your opponent is potentially already hellbent so you don't even get full value out of it

    - The other thing is that with so many symmetrical effects in this deck (LOTV, Smallpox etc) you need to be pretty careful about 1-for-2ing yourself in general and it also means you have cards in the deck that sac off your own 3/2

  9. #5129
    A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry.
    PirateKing's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2011
    Location

    BEST JERSEY
    Posts

    1,528

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    Obviously the tempo aspects are not the same
    I guess we have common ground at least. Not sure in what gamestate you think a reactive instant is going to line up to a proactive sorcery to produce any meaningful comparison. I wonder how many decks pitch to Force of Vigor on turn one for none targets? Storm 1, dominance asserted, applause.

    Who is hardcasting Unmask? Honestly asking, because that is the tempo we're discussing. What's the play look like when hardcasting Unmask is a win?
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  10. #5130

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    The common situation in pox where you are both in top deck mode, and instead of top decking a dark ritual or a thoughtseize now you topdeck a 3/2 menace.

  11. #5131

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    I guess we have common ground at least. Not sure in what gamestate you think a reactive instant is going to line up to a proactive sorcery to produce any meaningful comparison. I wonder how many decks pitch to Force of Vigor on turn one for none targets? Storm 1, dominance asserted, applause.
    Requiring the opponent to have at least 1 important non land in their hand on t1 is a much lower ask than to have a relevant artifact on t1 (force of Vigor) or even relevant non-creature spells (fon).

    Just like fon lets you tap out for library, running a spell like this would let you run more card advantage engines since you can disrupt and develop on the same turn. You can run a lot more bitterblossom or phyrexian arena style effects when it doesn’t mean you give the opponent a free turn to do their thing.

    Who is hardcasting Unmask? Honestly asking, because that is the tempo we're discussing. What's the play look like when hardcasting Unmask is a win?
    Hard casting unmask is terrible. But hard casting a TKS is much better than topdecking a dark ritual or thoughtseize.

  12. #5132
    Bald. Bearded. Moderator.
    Mr. Safety's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2010
    Location

    Hell in a Nutshell
    Posts

    5,220

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    I guess we have common ground at least. Not sure in what gamestate you think a reactive instant is going to line up to a proactive sorcery to produce any meaningful comparison. I wonder how many decks pitch to Force of Vigor on turn one for none targets? Storm 1, dominance asserted, applause.

    Who is hardcasting Unmask? Honestly asking, because that is the tempo we're discussing. What's the play look like when hardcasting Unmask is a win?
    To be fair, the only deck that uses Unmask is BR Reanimator, and it is rarely ever hard cast. The reason it's acceptable is because Grisel-necropotence-brand draws you so many extra cards it isn't even a cost. There really isn't a comparison because we have had 'free' creatures (Vine Dryad, Allosaurus Rider), we have had 'free' disruption (Unmask, Force of Will), but we've never had both in one card.

    The value of a creature being added to a spell is the place to start, so things like Shriekmaw and Mulldrifter are the right category. Those cards are great early and amazing once you hard-cast them, to the point that they were format-defining when they were in Standard. We got Terror and Divination, both at sorcery speed, for the early game and then significant creatures late game. In that particular metagame the technology was Momentary Blink and Makeshift Mannequin, both of which were good enough even at 4 mana to be viable. In legacy we have Reanimate, which is 100 times better, but Pox isn't really in the market for reanimation strategies (unless it's truly free, like Nether Spirit, or incredibly low cost, like Bloodghast.)

    So the question becomes: does Pox want a modal card, like Shriekmaw, that is passable early and good mid-late game? Is the effect worth 2 cards to play it? Dark Ritual is worth it because it plays incredibly powerful cards at 3 mana like Lilianas or a combination of Hymn to Tourach/Smallpox/Thoughtseize. I was originally on the track of 'Pox wants this', but I think I've changed my mind.
    Brainstorm Realist

    I close my eyes and sink within myself, relive the gift of precious memories, in need of a fix called innocence. - Chuck Shuldiner

  13. #5133
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    3,386

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    I think this card is better in decks that want Unmask anyway (4 copies in Reanimator as a backup threat) or Black Stompy (as a TKS that can do a T1 Thoughtseize impersonation without clashing with Chalice, even clearing the way for a T1 Chalice).

    It could have use in Pox though. Pox has terrible topdecks (Ritual, Thoughtseize, etc). This topdecks as a win condition and potential 3-for-1 (discard a card + must be blocked by 2 creatures). Worth it as a 1-of or 2-of?

    The Evoke mode seems riskier. Does T1 double Thoughtseize improve the combo matchups?
    What about T1 Unmask your Force into Liliana +1? Maybe that's just a terrible play. You're down to 1 card in hand while opponent has 5, but it's less likely any of those cards can answer Liliana and you'll soon break the symmetry on the +1 mode.

  14. #5134

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    I was thinking you play it with cheap but tempo negative engine cards like bitterblossom or waste not. Lotv or phyrexian arena are other options.

  15. #5135
    A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry.
    PirateKing's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2011
    Location

    BEST JERSEY
    Posts

    1,528

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    running a spell like this would let you run more card advantage engines since you can disrupt and develop on the same turn. You can run a lot more bitterblossom or phyrexian arena style effects when it doesn’t mean you give the opponent a free turn to do their thing.
    If you could expand on this I think it would be helpful. I'm understanding that we're casting this, trading a card in hand for +1 mana, to cast a CMC 2 or 3? So we're already past turn 1, the titular "free turn to do their thing". So we did nothing then to disrupt them then? Or did we cast Grief on turn one to save tapping a Swamp so that later, we can cast a different spell on a different turn? Or are we considering Dark Ritual and just going all in on card disadvantage?

    I'm trying my best to debate your points, but we're not a combo deck and we're not a Stompy deck. Hardcasting Thought-Knot Seer is great, but zero decks think tapping 4 lands to cast it on turn 4 is ideal. Decks that play TKS play it because to them it costs 2. Grief does not cost 2.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  16. #5136

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    The idea is that it lets you disrupt on the same turn that you play your engine. It could “fair” monoR reanimating, going all in on it to clear the way for dark ritual phyrexian arena.
    Another pairing I really like is waste not. It’s the cheap engine pox needs, but normally it is too slow to get going. This lets you immediately disrupt on the same turn and refunds the pitched card into a random card, a zombie or a dark ritual.

  17. #5137
    A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry.
    PirateKing's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2011
    Location

    BEST JERSEY
    Posts

    1,528

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Okay, fair points.

    So turn one we're optioned into committing 5 cards (Swamp, Dark Ritual, Phyrexian Arena, Grief & pitch) to their 1 card and now over the next 4 turns we've reach parity again, card advantage from there on out. Math checks out. To boot, we can get a 3/2 sometimes-unblockable later in the game if that's what we draw. That is a thing we can do now.

    If you like Waste Not then this does get it online earlier. Small point of order: you're never going to get BB from Waste Not by casting Grief, but the rest stands. I do not like Waste Not and find it to be a trap, but that is a different discussion.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  18. #5138

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    Okay, fair points.

    So turn one we're optioned into committing 5 cards (Swamp, Dark Ritual, Phyrexian Arena, Grief & pitch) to their 1 card and now over the next 4 turns we've reach parity again, card advantage from there on out. Math checks out. To boot, we can get a 3/2 sometimes-unblockable later in the game if that's what we draw. That is a thing we can do now.
    By that logic dark ritual Liliana is committing 4 cards to the opponents 1, and will only start to recoup CA once they play a creature or you r empty handed and they are not (ie several turns down the line)

  19. #5139
    A short, sturdy creature fond of drink and industry.
    PirateKing's Avatar
    Join Date

    Nov 2011
    Location

    BEST JERSEY
    Posts

    1,528

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Quote Originally Posted by Reeplcheep View Post
    By that logic dark ritual Liliana is committing 4 cards to the opponents 1, and will only start to recoup CA once they play a creature or you r empty handed and they are not (ie several turns down the line)
    Hey we're agreeing more and more :D

    I also think windmill slamming down Liliana of the Veil turn one is a bad play in the majority of situations. 4 for 1 is a bad trade, I agree. You could discard Nether Spirit and help the math out, but then it's upgraded into just a super risky play. You would need foreknowledge of your opponent and some pretty sick followup like Hymn or Smallpox, and even then I'd think i was a ballsy move. Which will make it memorable when it works out the few times, but filed away as "Pox is just a bad deck" every time it doesn't.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  20. #5140
    Member

    Join Date

    Sep 2011
    Posts

    3,386

    Re: [Primer/Deck] Pox

    Arguably Grief makes Dark Ritual Liliana a better play because it helps it resolve and you're down to 1 card in hand on turn 1. You'll probably be empty-handed by turn 2 and Liliana will already be recouping card advantage from then on out.

    This is a more all-in gambit that Pox could play (dump your hand on turn 1 to force through an engine) instead of slowly grinding out the advantage over many plays. Deck construction would have to change to support that strategy, with other engines like Phyrexian Arena.

    Is it any good? Seems high variance, depending on specific opening hands. What do you do the rest of the time?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)