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Thread: [Deck]BUx Reanimator

  1. #2441

    Re: [Deck]BUx Reanimator

    It's also important to remark that if you are going for the petal less builds you should definitely cut daze, since the card loses a lot of value after turn 2.
    I thought this was the opposite?

    When you're playing petals this is when you should remove daze because petals tend to replace some amount of lands in these builds. Bouncing lands with lower land count can stunt your mana development (not counting petals as mana development since those are one shot resources). Also these builds encourages a more faster execution of the combo that you can afford to exchange some amount of protection for speed.

  2. #2442
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    Re: [Deck]BUx Reanimator

    Quote Originally Posted by jethstriker View Post
    I thought this was the opposite?

    When you're playing petals this is when you should remove daze because petals tend to replace some amount of lands in these builds. Bouncing lands with lower land count can stunt your mana development (not counting petals as mana development since those are one shot resources). Also these builds encourages a more faster execution of the combo that you can afford to exchange some amount of protection for speed.
    The line of thinking owerbart was demonstrating is that a Petal build is emphasizing speed, and speed necessitates 0-cost counters like Daze. Underground Sea, Lotus Petal, Entomb, Reanimate, Daze their counter is a winning play. If you're not playing Lotus Petals, then you're not going fast; a 1 mana tax loses potency after T2, if you're target turn is after T2, it's not a good card for your build.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  3. #2443
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    Re: [Deck]BUx Reanimator

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    The line of thinking owerbart was demonstrating is that a Petal build is emphasizing speed, and speed necessitates 0-cost counters like Daze. Underground Sea, Lotus Petal, Entomb, Reanimate, Daze their counter is a winning play. If you're not playing Lotus Petals, then you're not going fast; a 1 mana tax loses potency after T2, if you're target turn is after T2, it's not a good card for your build.
    Exactly. When you play no petals you are aiming to exchange speed for better resiliency, and therefore you are planning on going t2-t3 because your griselbrand draws are gonna be smoother. From the moment you are aiming for anything later than t2, daze has to go since you opponent will probably be able to pay for the mana tax making it a dead card. You don't care about bouncing a land since you will operate with two lands at best. On the same note, Petals not only replace some number of lands, making your manabase shaky, but also they replace some other spells from your deck, including reanimation spells and some of your flex spots (like hapless researcher or pithing needle). I've been playing with no petals for a year now and one of the misconceptions I can assure you from all the experience is that you might never go off t1, but you will still have more than enough speed to win G1s vs fair decks and you will still have great MUs against the decks you face with petal/dark ritual versions. Ponders and cantrips become better because they will never show you bad cards like petal or daze, only lands or relevant spells. Also, post sideboard you will have a much better plan because petals and dazes usually suck post board, so it's like you already default-preboarded, while also adding other cards.

    when you make a comparison chart, it will look something like this:

    no mana acceleration lists:
    better cantripping
    better manabase
    resiliency
    t2-t3 speed
    better post board games

    mana acceleration lists:
    t1 speed

    from this, it's your choice of what you feel better playing, and what might be better for your meta.

  4. #2444

    Re: [Deck]BUx Reanimator

    ^
    Do you find the loss of speed to be a detriment versus combo? What matchups would you say become better or worse by taking out Petals and Dazes?

  5. #2445
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    Re: [Deck]BUx Reanimator

    Quote Originally Posted by crowe_1 View Post
    ^
    Do you find the loss of speed to be a detriment versus combo? What matchups would you say become better or worse by taking out Petals and Dazes?
    This is a good question to ask, since speed is one of the most common advantages reanimator has over other combo archetypes and how naturally predates them. When i switched for a non mana acceleration plan I felt you would lose that edge, but after grinding some games you will realize that speed is still by far on your side. It's only that now, instead of going at 200 km/h, you are going at 180. Speed will still be far in your side. Quick look at the other combos:

    Elves: Drs is still the only card that matters, and you are still faster even for show and tell lines.

    Sneak and Show: Instead of a full turn faster, now you are half. And even still, the mathup is still heavily in our favor due another factor: they can never go for snt in peace, since you can also cheat one of your big dudes into play, or even an animate dead to reanimate your fatty in the graveyard.

    Storm: We are still faster, and much better to recover with a resilient hand like non-petal builds give, since petals become wasted card space after a discard shreds your hand. I would even argue that non petal builds have a much better game post sideboard than petal builds, since those games tend to become an attrition war of discard, where topdecking petals and dazes are just awful.

    BR reanimator: They are already faster than us, but much more fragile. You just want to stall them and drag the game out. You still play force, and once you contain their first shots you're favored to win. Post sideboard you'll do great as well since games will also tend to drag for long.

    Dredge: Already a good matchup, you just go from extremely favored to heavily favored.

    Infect: You are still faster. They will counter your first attempts but you have enough resiliency to get it done via brute force.

    On the other side, delver, miracles, czech pile, maverick, stoneblade, stompy decks, you have more or less the same matchups, but with the ability to still win after t3.

    One of the interesting qualities of petal less versions is that you can aim for a discard heavy plan post sideboard, since you are now ok trading 1 for 1 resources since all your cards are valuable, but when petal versions you might make a few trades and then draw into nothing. Also ists important to consider that surgical and faerie macabre have become more and more of staples in people sideboards so the idea of going off t1 post sideboard is extremely small

  6. #2446

    Re: [Deck]BUx Reanimator

    Spellseeker:

    U2
    1/1
    ETB: Search library for instant or sorcery card with mana cost two or less.

    https://www.channelfireball.com/arti...d-spellseeker/

    Just spoiled from Battlebond. Do we want it? It gets just about every non-fattie card we play (except FoW and Show and Tell). Could help out our consistency quite a bit.

    But is it too much mana?

    Thoughts?

  7. #2447

    Re: [Deck]BUx Reanimator

    Quote Originally Posted by owerbart View Post
    One of the interesting qualities of petal less versions is that you can aim for a discard heavy plan post sideboard, since you are now ok trading 1 for 1 resources since all your cards are valuable, but when petal versions you might make a few trades and then draw into nothing. Also ists important to consider that surgical and faerie macabre have become more and more of staples in people sideboards so the idea of going off t1 post sideboard is extremely small
    From my experience playing the petal-less build recently I'd say that's absolutely correct. I switched my sideboard to completely forgo SnT in favor on decays so post board I have 6 removal (3 brutalities, 3 decays) and 6 discard if I need it (3 brutalities / 3 thougtseize). My plan so far has been to transform the deck into a pseudo-reanimator using Pack Rats. Just yesterday I had the perfect example of how powerful it was.

    Opponent on Grixis delver on the play:
    T1- Opponent duress, takes out my exhume + surgicals it.
    T2- I play rat, it gets bolted.
    T3- I reanimate rat with force backup in case.
    T4- Scoop from opponent cause they can't deal with 2 rats at that point.

    Playing this deck in the current slow meta means you need to adapt. Fast discard / counterspell is better vs combo but is not very good in topdeck mode. I play the longer game with the occasional T2-3 fatty to supplement my board.

  8. #2448

    Re: [Deck]BUx Reanimator

    Having read the primer, and the last several pages, I'm interested in going with a 'no mana' acceleration list.
    What are the core cards for that, or perhaps someone can give me a sample list?
    Thank you.

  9. #2449

    Re: [Deck]BUx Reanimator

    This is what I'm testing right now:

    Land (17)
    1x Bayou
    1x Bloodstained Mire
    1x Flooded Strand
    1x Island
    1x Misty Rainforest
    4x Polluted Delta
    2x Swamp
    1x Tropical Island
    4x Underground Sea
    1x Verdant Catacombs

    Enchantment (2)
    2x Animate Dead

    Creature (11)
    1x Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
    3x Griselbrand
    3x Hapless Researcher
    1x Iona, Shield of Emeria
    1x Jin-Gitaxias, Core Augur
    1x Sphinx of the Steel Wind
    1x Tidespout Tyrant

    Sorcery (17)
    4x Careful Study
    3x Collective Brutality
    4x Exhume
    2x Ponder
    4x Reanimate

    Instant (13)
    4x Brainstorm
    4x Entomb
    4x Force of Will
    1x Misdirection

    Sideboard (15)
    3x Abrupt Decay
    1x Blazing Archon
    2x Echoing Truth
    1x Keranos, God of Storms
    3x Pack Rat
    2x Pithing Needle
    3x Thoughtseize

  10. #2450
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    Re: [Deck]BUx Reanimator

    @Cpt-Qc dunno man, I've always liked the show and tell angle, and sometimes it gives you a huge "whoops, i win" type of draws since it dodges a lot of the bonafide removal vs reanimator. I've been playing 2 shows main and 2 side forever and i can't imagine leaving home without them at this point. My list (yeah i play with 61 cards):

    4 entomb
    4 brainstorm
    4 force of will
    2 misdirection

    3 ponder
    4 careful
    4 reanimate
    4 exhume
    2 thoughtseize
    2 show and tell

    2 animate dead

    1 pithing needle

    1 hapless researcher
    1 grave titan
    1 elesh norn
    1 iona, shield of emeria
    1 tidespout tyrant
    3 griselbrand

    9 fetches
    3 u. Sea
    1 trop
    1 bayou
    2 swamp
    1 island

    Sb:

    1 keranos
    2 thoughtseize
    2 show and tell
    2 duress
    2 collective brutality
    3 abrupt decay
    2 echoing truth
    1 pithing needle

  11. #2451
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    Re: [Deck]BUx Reanimator

    Quote Originally Posted by crowe_1 View Post
    Spellseeker:

    U2
    1/1
    ETB: Search library for instant or sorcery card with mana cost two or less.

    https://www.channelfireball.com/arti...d-spellseeker/

    Just spoiled from Battlebond. Do we want it? It gets just about every non-fattie card we play (except FoW and Show and Tell). Could help out our consistency quite a bit.

    But is it too much mana?

    Thoughts?
    I'd rather cast show and tell for that mana. But maybe worth a try

  12. #2452

    Re: [Deck]BUx Reanimator

    Hello all, longtime lurker. Here's the mainboard that I've had some fun playing locally (to some success):

    Threats
    4 Griselbrand
    4 Entomb
    4 Reanimate
    4 Exhume

    Selection
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Careful Study

    Protection
    4 Force of Will
    2 Collective Brutality

    Mana Denial
    4 Wasteland
    4 Stifle
    4 Daze

    Mana
    3 Underground Sea
    1 Island
    10 Fetch

    It's a sort of "tempo-combo" list, like how Infect does things. With Canadian Threshold-style tempo, you're just trying to stick one cheap and efficient threat, keeping it relevant by disrupting the opponent's manabase. I was curious to see if that "threat" could be something other than just a dumb beater, so here it's just a cheap reanimation spell. This is especially interesting because it lets us play a tempo game without caring about the opponent's creatures or their removal. Stifle also plays pretty nicely with Entomb: no more choosing between deploying the "threat" and holding up disruption on the first turn. We can also play around DRS to some degree, since we can easily keep decks off their (usually light) green splash.

    I've tried various interesting things in the board, the best of which was a transformative board with a white splash to become Esper Mentor.

    Still needs tuning of course, let me know what you think.

  13. #2453

    Re: [Deck]BUx Reanimator

    Quote Originally Posted by lugh View Post
    Hello all, longtime lurker. Here's the mainboard that I've had some fun playing locally (to some success):

    Threats
    4 Griselbrand
    4 Entomb
    4 Reanimate
    4 Exhume

    Selection
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Ponder
    4 Careful Study

    Protection
    4 Force of Will
    2 Collective Brutality

    Mana Denial
    4 Wasteland
    4 Stifle
    4 Daze

    Mana
    3 Underground Sea
    1 Island
    10 Fetch

    It's a sort of "tempo-combo" list, like how Infect does things. With Canadian Threshold-style tempo, you're just trying to stick one cheap and efficient threat, keeping it relevant by disrupting the opponent's manabase. I was curious to see if that "threat" could be something other than just a dumb beater, so here it's just a cheap reanimation spell. This is especially interesting because it lets us play a tempo game without caring about the opponent's creatures or their removal. Stifle also plays pretty nicely with Entomb: no more choosing between deploying the "threat" and holding up disruption on the first turn. We can also play around DRS to some degree, since we can easily keep decks off their (usually light) green splash.

    I've tried various interesting things in the board, the best of which was a transformative board with a white splash to become Esper Mentor.

    Still needs tuning of course, let me know what you think.
    Hi, I'm actually trying to also experiment with a less all in combo but a more controll-ish build. I would suggest instead of 4 grislebrand, go split with some other creatures like Iona. I would also suggest you drop 4 careful studys as you don't have the creature density to properly take advantage of it.

  14. #2454
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    Re: [Deck]BUx Reanimator

    I made top 8 of the biggest legacy event of the year here in argentina. I played the petal less version going 1/1 split between collective and blazing archon.

    2-0 lands
    2-0 4cc
    2-1 eldrazi taxes
    2-1 aggro loam
    1-2 grixis control splashing shaman
    2-0 ub reanimator mirror (he played petals)
    ID vs colorless eldrazi

    Lost on top 8 to grixis control with shaman again.

    Overall the deck felt really solid, i liked it, and collective was good vs blue decks, but post sideboard the idea of dumping the fatty to it wont work that great. Just use it as a duress or if you already saw their hand.

  15. #2455
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    Re: [Deck]BUx Reanimator

    Congratulations on the finish
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatWhale View Post
    Gross, other formats. I puked in my mouth a little.

  16. #2456
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    Re: [Deck]BUx Reanimator

    Quote Originally Posted by PirateKing View Post
    Congratulations on the finish
    Thanks man :)

    I'll try to get the whole top 8 decklists to tcdecks if anyone is curious.

  17. #2457

    Re: [Deck]BUx Reanimator

    Splendid work, owerbart!

    You played the 61-card list you mentioned a couple of posts before?

  18. #2458
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    Re: [Deck]BUx Reanimator

    Thanks sonorous :)

    Yeah, exact 61. Sideboard was:

    3 Abrupt Decay
    2 Echoing Truth
    2 Duress
    2 Thoughtseize
    1 Collective Brutality
    2 Show and Tell
    1 Pithing Needle
    1 Keranos, God of Storms
    1 Blazing Archon

  19. #2459
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    Re: [Deck]BUx Reanimator

    Congratulations owerbart! Would you elaborate on your sideboard plan? I'm kinda new to the deck and am always wondering what to board and what to cut.

  20. #2460
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    Re: [Deck]BUx Reanimator

    Quote Originally Posted by JanoschEausH View Post
    Congratulations owerbart! Would you elaborate on your sideboard plan? I'm kinda new to the deck and am always wondering what to board and what to cut.
    Thanks man :)
    The sideboard plan varies from deck to deck., but mostly the idea is, going up to 8 discard spells on the sideboard, to fight the permission war outside of the stack. The bonafide GY hate has become surgical extraction, and post sideboard your opponent will have more counters than you if they are bringing flusterstorms and pyroblasts (which you can turn into a bad card), given that your only counters require 2 for 1ing yourself, they arent that good postboard. As noted, if your oppponent is playing a blue deck with a red splash, they are 90% to board in REB/Pyro, so you want to lower your blue quantity postboard, and let them die with those cards in hand. A sideboard plan vs czech pile might be:

    -2 misdirection
    -2 force of will
    -1 tidespout tyrant
    -1 show and tell
    -1 swamp

    +2 duress
    +1 collective brutality
    +1 abrupt decay
    +2 thoughtseize
    +1 pithing needle

    You board the decay if they are playing shaman. Vs grixis control with no shaman you can forego the decay and the needle. Against blue decks with no red you can go for your full playset of show and tells, since they have no pyroblasts to board in and you can put the pressure on them to find a very definitive answer (flusterstorm, force of will). Vs UW decks, they won't pressure your life total that much but you need to be wary of containment priest and counterbalance, so you can do a similar plan shaving the second needle (2 for karakas and jace are tol much), also shave Elesh Norn, add a second decay and Keranos, who should be your go-to target, since it's mostly an uninteractable clock in a match that should drag long, and it also dodges containment priest. It's also great vs DNT so to ping their guys (add decays to complement) and tear apart their resources until you are good to go.

    Vs storm you drop tidespout tyrant and there's an interesting sub game of ETW vs Elesh. If you think they dropped ETW conpletely, you can shave elesh. You can drop also a second land, dropping to 15, and again feel free to board all your SnT playset. Vs sneaky show, you board all the discard, drop the misdirections, and then you try to guess which GY hate they are packing. If they are on leyline, you can bring the truths, if they are on grafdigger, the decays. I use to bring the truths and no decays since it's very common post board for you to thoughtseize away their fatty and then reanimate it.

    Vs prison decks, discard is of course a no go, since they will already play their hand out before you have a chance to fire them off. You can shave them and i usually cut ponders, and depending if they are on E. Bridge, i cut a Grizz or Elesh Norn, iona if they are on colorless (also misdirection). Usually I had a 6th card for this matchups which was teferi's realm, but i replaced it with Blazing Archon since it's good for fatty density, it's good both vs eldrazi and vs other decks like elves or dnt, where realm isnt that good.

    In conclusion, the one thing that i would never board out are the reanimation spells nor the enablers. I once have seen a storm discussion saying that you should start from the postulation that what you are doing is better than what anyone else is doing, and therefore they are the ones trying to play your game and not the other way around

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