[Primer/Deck] Burn

[bigwerdz]

@brael
I appreciate your opinion and logic on the swiftspear vs lavaman comparison. The reasons I've been a fan of lavamancer isn't for its raw damage output but for its utility. I like being able to hold open removal then spells then if they aren't needed just activate lavaman for a quick 2. This allows for having more actual spells in hand for the kill turn. I won't argue that swiftspear isn't faster then lavaman but in my experience the versatility of lavamancer has always been the reason I like it. I appreciate the response with reasoning behind it and I'll prolly have to give swiftspear a shot after indy and see how I like it.

[Captain Hammer]

Below is my go to B/R burn list, it's as fast, efficient and consistent as a burn deck has ever been. With the below list, you deal 20+ damage to your opponent by turn 4 virtually every single time, even in the face of counterspells or discard spells blanking a burn spell or two.

// Creatures
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Goblin Guide
4 Eidolon of the Great Revel

// Instants
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Price of Progress
3 Fireblast

// Sorceries
4 Lava Spike
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Bump in the Night
4 Tyrant's Choice

// Lands
1 Taiga
2 Badlands
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Arid Mesa
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Mountain

You don't try to burn away your opponent's creatures, you ignore them and aim everything at the face, the way burn decks are supposed to. Deathrite and Eidolon do almost all of their damage without attacking, they don't care about potential blockers. And a well timed Goblin Guide is generally good for atleast 2 damage to your opponent even if your opponent is playing a creature heavy deck.

Deathrite Shaman serves double duty. Not only is it a great way to turn excess mana into damage, it serves an extremely important role in the above list in substantially decreasing the likelihood of getting mana screwed, while getting away with running the 18 land configuration that is optimal for a deck like this with such a low curve.


The only remaining question regarding the above list is....
Goblin Guide vs. Monastary Swiftspear - Which is the superior choice? I lean heavily in favor of Goblin Guide's dependability myself.

Captain Hammer - splashing for black, how do you cope with a turn 3 Iona or Griselbrand or Emrakul or similar, via Reanimate/Show/Sneak?

I dislike Magma Jet. Yes it has good utility but regardless, paying 2 mana to deal 2 damage is vastly inferior to paying just 1 mana to deal 3 damage.

By turn 3, my list by playing 20 1cc bolts puts them at a very low life total already. Even if the deck doesn't make a third land drop, your opponent is usually down to at most 5 life by then (far more frequently, they're down to 3 or less since the majority of the decks in the format play either Fetchlands or Ancient Tombs (or both) and many play Thoughtseizes as well). And not infrequently, you're able to kill them off turn 3 itself, thought most games, it's turn 4 when your opponent's die.

Against reanimator, a third of their reanimation spells (reanimates) are unusuable because of their low life total. They also won't be able to pay life to draw cards with Griselbrand the turn they cast it, and they won't be alive by the time it loses it's summoning sickness. Even if the Griselbrand makes it out on turn 2, it's still feasible to burn them out even under a Griselbrand that managed to get one swing in, especially since Reanimator plays fetchlands, reanimates and oftentimes, thoughtseizes.

In addition, splashing black gives you resiliency vs. Iona. Where an Iona on red in a monored burn list is basically game over, the B/R list plays 12 cards that can still finish your opponent off.

Vs. Emrakul, yes, there's not a whole lot any burn deck can do vs. an Emrakul on the battlefield. Burn's best chance is to kill the opponent off before they are able to get it into play and this is more than feasible because Emrakul far more often comes down turn 4 or later, not turn 3. The black splash by playing 20 1cc bolts stands the best chance of any burn variant of killing off your opponent by turn 4.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

Captain Hammer... how do you cast the 5R for Bump in the graveyard? am I missing something here?

[Ace/Homebrew]

If he's talking about killing his opponent on turn 4, the flashback line might as well be flavor text.

[Brael]

I dislike Magma Jet. Yes it has good utility but regardless, paying 2 mana to deal 2 damage is vastly inferior to paying just 1 mana to deal 3 damage.

It is, but that scry represents additional damage which means the 2:2 comparison isn't quite fair. With the added card quality from the scry Magma Jet is much closer to 4 for 2 at instant speed and with the ability to split the targets if you need.

[LeoCop 90]

I really love magma jet but unfortunately i think it is too slow for burn... i know it digs for relevant cards so in the end it does more than two damages, but it does so at the cost of probably slowing down your clock by a whole turn. I find it hard to justify playing magma jet in modern and even in standard i won't play more than 1-2 copies, it is just not impactful enough.

[Brael]

I really love magma jet but unfortunately i think it is too slow for burn... i know it digs for relevant cards so in the end it does more than two damages, but it does so at the cost of probably slowing down your clock by a whole turn. I find it hard to justify playing magma jet in modern and even in standard i won't play more than 1-2 copies, it is just not impactful enough.

In both Modern and Standard you're playing with lower power cards which makes that scry less impactful. The difference between Modern and Legacy for example is the difference finding Fireblast or Price of Progress instead of Shard Volley or Lava Spike. I wouldn't play Magma Jet in Modern.

As far as it slowing you down goes, it really depends on when you cast it. For example casting Magma Jet on your upkeep on turn 3 or EoT on turn 2 with a hand full of Burn can find you an additional land drop, which then gets you back the mana you spent on the Magma Jet while also having given you some damage, getting those 3 mana cards on curve like Sulfuric Vortex is also greatly helped by having the scry given our land counts. When you definitely don't want to be casting it is on turn 4, you want to put it earlier in your sequencing so that you can go for the kill on time.

[xieyun006]

Maybe its just my meta, but I find that the only time I want to race is against combo, almost every other deck I play against has relevant creatures that need to be killed, and I'm totally ok with ending the game on turn five with a price. I'm running a full set of forked bolt, and two searing blood for creature control, I look at magma jet as a different kind of searing blood. Its two mana to kill a creature you have to kill, but unlike searing blood, it can go to the face, and will fix your draw if necessary. I end up taking the control role in most of my games, but I'm pretty sure thats just my meta, lots of tempo decks, and DnT.

Edit:

Also magma jet isn't soo great in modern because its just a race usually, you don't often have to shift gears. In standard most creatures shrug off two damage like its nothing, and how slow standard is, you have time to build up your resources and play stronger cards, in Legacy however every creature that burn needs to kill, and is able to kill dies to magma jet, its a one for one trade, in an emergency you can burn some ones face, and after that you get to fix your next two draws, thats a pretty big advantage in a deck with no deck manipulation.

[bigwerdz]

"xieyun006

Maybe its just my meta, but I find that the only time I want to race is against combo, almost every other deck I play against has relevant creatures that need to be killed, and I'm totally ok with ending the game on turn five with a price. I'm running a full set of forked bolt, and two searing blood for creature control, I look at magma jet as a different kind of searing blood. Its two mana to kill a creature you have to kill, but unlike searing blood, it can go to the face, and will fix your draw if necessary. I end up taking the control role in most of my games, but I'm pretty sure thats just my meta, lots of tempo decks, and DnT."

I think maybe you are over valueing your opponents creatures. In my 18 months playing burn I just haven't noticed that many creatures that NEED to be killed. The only real creature removal I run is 3 searing blaze main and 3 searing blood in the board. Of course there are times where something needs to get bolted but I'd still rather keep my getcha spell count high and not play weaker spells like jet or forked bolt. When our goal is to kill fast a searing spell is every bit as much as a 2 for 1 as a forked both killing 2 dudes and doing nothing up stairs. Popping one of elves combo enablers, a mom or sfm in dnt, or a drs when it threatens to start gaining life is typically enough of a tempo swing to put me ahead anyways. I wouldn't want to dilute my chances of a t3 or 4 kill against decks I have to kill on t3 or 4 to gain percentage points against decks I should be able to beat anyways ie gaining points against elves that I can already beat with main deck staples and then not be able to kill the stumbling reanimator or snt deck cause I drew forked bolts or jets instead of real bolts or a blast. The only real bad creature match up I've seen is maverick varients.

[xieyun006]

I think maybe you are over valueing your opponents creatures. In my 18 months playing burn I just haven't noticed that many creatures that NEED to be killed. The only real creature removal I run is 3 searing blaze main and 3 searing blood in the board. Of course there are times where something needs to get bolted but I'd still rather keep my getcha spell count high and not play weaker spells like jet or forked bolt. When our goal is to kill fast a searing spell is every bit as much as a 2 for 1 as a forked both killing 2 dudes and doing nothing up stairs. Popping one of elves combo enablers, a mom or sfm in dnt, or a drs when it threatens to start gaining life is typically enough of a tempo swing to put me ahead anyways. I wouldn't want to dilute my chances of a t3 or 4 kill against decks I have to kill on t3 or 4 to gain percentage points against decks I should be able to beat anyways ie gaining points against elves that I can already beat with main deck staples and then not be able to kill the stumbling reanimator or snt deck cause I drew forked bolts or jets instead of real bolts or a blast. The only real bad creature match up I've seen is maverick varients.

Unless I have the cards in hand to kill on the very next turn, this is what I will be doing in each of these scenarios:
Against any tempo variance I'd kill delver before it starts getting damage in, especially against rug since they are actually the beatdown in that match up. I will kill deathrite on site, even if there are no creatures in the grave because if I don't the next turn will be followed by lilly, true name nemesis or something silly like that. Against stoneforge decks you kill stoneforge or you risk dealing with batterskull/jitte. In death and taxes its a good idea to kill mom before she untaps, Thalia on sight, and stoneforge for said reasons above. In the mirror I'd kill guide before he gets another attack in, and eidolon before they get more value out of it. If you ignore elves' first turn drop you risk dying turn two. Some may think this is over valuing opponent's creatures, but i've lost before due to deciding other wise in the past.

Against reanimator if you hit any of your hate you're already down a card if not more, they can play off of two basic lands, which drasticly cuts the power of price, and you still need to play around counter spell, as well as discard, under these conditions whats the chance you're gonna kill on turn three any ways?

The more I read into these burn discussions it seems like every one is planning for magical christmas land, this mentality would be fine in modern, but this is legacy, the format of interaction, and we're playing a bad combo deck, that can shift toward a light control role. Lll I read about is focusing on the combo side of burn. force of will(game one) or blue blast(game two) your big burn spell happens alot, you want to run all those bolts? spell pierce, and thalia are gonna rock your world. Those of you who hate on magma jet, how many games have you sat there with no cards in hand and drew into lands or dead goblin guides, and end up losing the game? This happens to me enough times that I'm testing magma jet again.

And I'm not trying to sound rude, bigwerdz this is not aimed directly at you, but you're the fourth or fifth time I've seen this happen, not only on this forum; but why do people cite the amount of time they've spent playing magic or a certain deck as a badge of honor or prelude to wisdom? I've known people who have picked up magic in a competative environment, and within a month they are placing at FNMs, and I've known people who played since alpha, who have power nine, and can't beat my mono black pauper deck. Its about the environment your'e in, your mentality/perception of the game, and the quality of your opponents, and teachers. Time doesn't have crap to do with it. Had to get that off my chest.

[bigwerdz]

@xieyun006
Hey no offense taken. I state the amount of time I've been playing not as a badge of honor but just a statement of where I'm at. Most people I know that play legacy have played a considerable amount more then me. I don't want to sound like I've been playing a long time when in reality I have not. I also am not saying what I'd do in magical christmas land. I just see people post all the wild lists with fringe cards and wonder how you race anything. I understand the kill on site creatures but with 4 fork bolts and some number of magma jets I wonder how you race anything. What I don't get is where the need for more consistency comes from. My list is 20 lands, 11 creatures, 2 mb vortex and the rest burn spells. so 27 of the 60 cards do guaranteed dmg(unless countered). 13 of the 60 will do some amount of dmg if played in any situation near optimal. So 2/3 of the deck do what you want them to do most of the time. That is one of the strengths of burn, that it is crazy redundant. I mean at scg columbus against pox I lost 2 games because after we were hellbent I only drew lands. Both games he was at a very low life total and I was at a reasonably high life total when we reached that point. Would magma jet have been great there? Yes. Would it have been great the rest of the tourney? No. Variance happens and that's something you have to live with. I'd rather lose cause I drew poorly then lose cause I played bad cards. And again this is all from my personal experience. Your mileage my vary. This has been mine.

[LeoCop 90]

I don't claim to be the best burn player in the world but I'm pretty sure you are overvaluing the strength of magma jet. We play an extremely redundant deck that aims at killing the opponent as soon as possible. You won't go anywhere playing burn as a control deck, because we don't have the tools to win in mid late game. Creatures must be killed only if they can gain life or they are killing you. If you face a lot of creature decks play 4 searing blaze main deck and 4 searing blood in sideboard. Another option is lavamancer.... magma jet's scry 2 can be useful sometimes but again we can't afford to play a burn spell that only deals 2 to the face for 2 mana.

I mean, magma jet is not a terrible card, but there are better options for burn in legacy. If I'm not convincing you can ask the best burn players in the world (patrick sullivan, recently jim davis) if they would play magma jet and the answer is no. But in the end, if you think it is good and it works for you just play it, the choice is up to you.

[xieyun006]

Before we go on, let me post my list, and explain myself a little more, my last post was a little cranky, I've been shoveling too much snow today :)

4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
4 rift bolt
4 forked bolt
2 magma jet
2 searing blood
3 fireblast
4 price of progress
2 sulfuric vortex
4 goblin guide
4 swift spear
4 eidolon

19 lands

So this list has actually been pretty awesome for me. I used to play 2 lavamancers where magma jets are, 4 lava spikes where forked bolts are, and 8 fetches and 1 tiaga for grip/revelry in the side, everything else is pretty much the same. I believe that red's creatures are good enough now that we can revert to a sligh strategy, drop great creatures for pressure, then use burn as removal, and finishers. This is why I place soo much value on creature removal, because it can clear the way for my creature damage. I actually race much more consistently with this deck then my old list because of swift spear.

As far as redundancy is concerned, you want to have redundant cards that do damage to target player, I want cards that can do damage to player or creatures, and I'm willing to pay for that versatility, especially when my sub par cards are actually generating advantage in other ways than just raw damage. I believe that Legacy has changed much more than most give it credit for, and the roles that creatures play are much more powerful then they used to be, but thats my thinking, based on my experiences.

'You won't go anywhere playing burn as a control deck, because we don't have the tools to win in mid late game.' - LeoCop90

I'm not playing a control deck, I can shift into a control mode if necessary, meaning I have the choice to control the board with my burn or not. As far as mid and late games go we have price of progress, the number one reason why Burn is viable in legacy, I've pumped out 8+ damage with that single card, heck it puts R/u burn the board not too long ago, and still does. I think you are wrong here.

After all is said and done, I'm testing magma jet, I haven't taken it to a big tournament yet, I've played flame rift and hated it, I've played with lava spike and I hate it. For now magma jet will get a chance, I might go back to lavamancer/fetchlands in time, but to me other than lava mancer, there isn't anything else worth running in place of jet, (edit) and the cost of running lava mancer is much greater than you think. More often then not, it just dies and you get nothing out of it, you're opening yourself up to stifle, and for the one damage/resource ratio that magma jet is lacking, it doesn't require a package that can potentially hit you for 3+ damage through out the course of the game.

[paeng4983]

Red is a lucky color + February is our love month = this made me think of bringing a RDW in the battlefield for our scheduled monthly big legacy GPT Kyoto event that NGSD hosted wherein 45-50 people participated.

The deck did not fail me, securing me those two round byes for the said GP is a great cushion.

The cards that I sleeved
10 Mountains, 9 Red Fetches
4 Lightning Bolt, 4 Chain Lightning, 4 Lava Spike, 4 Rift Bolt
4 Searing Blaze
2 Sulfuric Vortex, 3 Fireblast, 4 Price of Progress
4 Eidolon of the Great Rebel, 4 Goblin Guide, 4 Monastery Swiftspear
SB
3 Vexing Susher, 3 REB, 2 Mindbreak Trap, 2 Surgical Extraction
1 Pithing Needle, 1 Searing Blood, 3 Smash to Smithereens

My MUs
MUD 1-2
Imperial Painter, MUD, Esper, Affinity, BUG all wins by two-zero

top 8
Miracle 2-0

top4
Everybody agreed that I get this one for the byes.
^_^
See you in April, Kyoto!

[bigwerdz]

@pang
Hey congrats on the finish with burn in the gpt!
I agree it must be a good month for burn. I just top 8ed the scg indy main event over the weekend. I didn't take notes but it felt good to see so much bug in the room. Burn did what it does and gave me pretty good hands and I tried not to get in the way too much and ended the Swiss portion 12-3 then promptly lost to elves in the top 8. I think burn will be a reasonable call for the near future with as much bug as I saw and everyone else tweaking for the new meta.

[I_Hate_Counterspells]

@bigwerdz

Congrats to you too! Can you recall any of your match-ups?

[bigwerdz]

Yeah day 1 was a little foggy. This was my first open so I didn't know what to expect. All my opponents all day were super cool and win or lose I enjoyed playing them. I finished day 1 7-2. I don't remember all the specifics of my match ups but I beat pox, jeskai stoneblade, bug delver, DnT, infect, elves, and Sneak and show. I lost to 2 really cool guys in round 7&8. One guy was on U/W/r stoneblade and the other rug delver. They both beat me 2-0 and if I recall neither game in either match up was particularly close. I was pretty bummed after dropping round 7 & 8 and was pretty confident I needed to win round 9 to make day 2. I got paired against a guy on sneak and show that I had been talking to through out the day. sneak and show isn't particularly a great match up for me in the past and knew I'd have to play tight and get a little lucky to win and that's what happened. If I recall correctly game one my opponent had to mulligan and I kept a t1 guide, t2 eidolon hand and was able to close out before he found either a snt or a fatty to kill me with. Game 2 my hand was a bit slower and I my opponent sneak attacked a grisledaddy drew 7 then put in a emrakul and got me for 22. Game 3 on turn 3 my opponent snt an emrakul and passed the turn, I untapped priced for 6 and fireblasted for the win. Day 2 the deck was just hot. Seemed to always draw exactly what I needed and I didn't get my third loss for the tourney till the last round of swiss in day 2. I played sneak and show 2x, bug delver, a U/W control list with no balance/top, and another u/w control list with the sword/foundry combo. In round 15 I lost 2-1 to shardless bug. G1 I won very fast and actually though I was playing bug delver that didn't draw well and sided approprietly. Found out early game 2 that I was indeed playing shardless and got crushed by I believe a goyf holding a jitte. Game 3 was a very close game I had 2 turns where I believe any burn spell off the top would have got me there but in the end lost to agent beats and 2 DRS eating creatures and spells for the win. This version of shardless turns out had a basic swamp and forest and that was huge against me. In top 8 I played a super cool guy on elves from another shop of my lgs. He won that 2-1. g1 he mulled to 5 and I was able to get there off an eidolon and burning out his creatures. Games 2&3 I kept decent hands and was close but just couldn't close. G3 I needed to top deck a mountain t4 to double fireblast for the win and didn't get it. This was I believe both of our first scg top 8's and we had a good laugh threw the games as we made some minor mistakes to the amusement of the spectators near the table. Over all burn performed very well. I felt going in burn was as good as a call this weekend as any with cruise being gone and figured bug was going to be on the rise. I plan to play burn again in the invitational if the meta is still relatively like it is now.

[echofish]

Anyone not convinced that Faerie Macabre is the graveyard hate of choice should see Burn vs Reanimator from SCG last weekend:
http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/618582124?t=7h30m

Pros:
-Instant speed
-Free
-Can't be countered (except stifle)
-Can't be destroyed
-Removes two creatures (Good in case they got two creatures in gy and plays Exhume. And you even get a 2/2 flyer in play for free!)

[xieyun006]

Anyone not convinced that Faerie Macabre is the graveyard hate of choice should see Burn vs Reanimator from SCG last weekend:
http://www.twitch.tv/scglive/b/618582124?t=7h30m

Pros:
-Instant speed
-Free
-Can't be countered (except stifle)
-Can't be destroyed
-Removes two creatures (Good in case they got two creatures in gy and plays Exhume. And you even get a 2/2 flyer in play for free!)

good to see Macabre is finally getting some love, that card is amazing.

[Chatto]

Am I missing something? He didn't play Faerie Macabre, right? Or is that your point; play it over normal gy-hate?