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Thread: Theoretical High Stakes Legacy Tournament

  1. #21
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    Re: Theoretical High Stakes Legacy Tournament

    Considering how terrible I am at Magic I would be uncomfortable spending more than 100 bucks for a tourney, but as somebody said, this is from a scrub standpoint. I do like having fun though and nothing is more fun than large legacy tourneys to me!
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  2. #22

    Re: Theoretical High Stakes Legacy Tournament

    I think a large well run $100 entry few tournament would be great for the format.

  3. #23

    Re: Theoretical High Stakes Legacy Tournament

    I think dropping the entry cost to 100-150 is far more likely to attract the necessary turnout while still producing an acceptable prize pool. People are willing to spend that kind of money taking a chance on a box so they are probably also willing to spend it on a chance at a large cash prize. You already put down $40 for a normal tournament so the delta cost isn't as huge.

  4. #24
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    Re: Theoretical High Stakes Legacy Tournament

    $50-100 would be my comfort range, preferably with a deep payout like SCG's Open model.

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    Re: Theoretical High Stakes Legacy Tournament

    Magic is actually pretty unusual in how deeply it pays out. The WSOP I belive pays out only to top 40 despite being big and having an expensive buy-in. It's just a matter of shaping perceptions. People are used to huge variance swings in Poker, but Magic less so.
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  6. #26
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    Re: Theoretical High Stakes Legacy Tournament

    I just feel that Legacy needs headlines like "So-and-so wins 2.4 million dollars at Legacy tournament in Las Vegas".
    Considering how much money these decks cost, giving the oppertunity to earn multiples of that back through quality play would be a welcome addition.
    Playing draft for the chance to win $100 is very nice, but that same $100 prize just doesn't feel as big for decks of this caliber.
    But in lieu of any large sponsership to offer more money then the sum of entry fees, it would have to be all player sponsered, hence the high buy-in.
    But after just spending $200 for a playset of Forces, a $100 buy-in doesn't sound out of the realm of possible. Just wanted to know how others felt.
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  7. #27
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    Re: Theoretical High Stakes Legacy Tournament

    Wow this sounds like alot of fun! Not like the GPs... 1300 people, you fight for top64 and get what? 200 dollar. TWOHUNDRED?! That's just nothing.
    I'd greatly appreciate high-stake tournaments IN ADDITION to normal ones though.

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  8. #28
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    Re: Theoretical High Stakes Legacy Tournament

    For the guy who said I am not very good out of the 6 legacy Tournaments I played I topped 8 every single one. Kansas City, Oklahoma City, Topeka, Dallas, Little Rock and Sand Diego. I don't get to play in high level events much with 2 kids a wife and a full time job.


    Your large problem is the same reason Wizards stopped doing cash payouts, in most areas gambling is against the law and cash payouts are considered gambling. In the US it would have to be in Vegas our in one of the few other places that allow that level of cash payouts. I do know some LGS do do cash payouts but its small time and doesn't attract attention, something that big would attract a lot of attention and like someone said cheating would run rampant with that much on the line. I have seen players cheat when the prize payout was a sealed box.
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  9. #29
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    Re: Theoretical High Stakes Legacy Tournament

    I would only go to a $100+ buy-in tourney if the venue was extremely nice, there was a dress code, and cocktails were available. None of this generic shitty hotel conference room nonsense.

    Maybe I'm on to something here...private tables, no spectators milling around, and a noise policy. When your match is finished you shake hands, congratulate each other, and step out to the bar for conversation.
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    Re: Theoretical High Stakes Legacy Tournament

    it costs my roughly 800 dollars to attend a european GP (and i live here) anyway, so upping the buyin to say 250$ would be just fine with me. kewlness of finishing ITM also increases, as now, winning 200 dollars for top 64 feels like peeing my pants to stay warm.

  11. #31
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    Re: Theoretical High Stakes Legacy Tournament

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I would only go to a $100+ buy-in tourney if the venue was extremely nice, there was a dress code, and cocktails were available. None of this generic shitty hotel conference room nonsense.

    Maybe I'm on to something here...private tables, no spectators milling around, and a noise policy. When your match is finished you shake hands, congratulate each other, and step out to the bar for conversation.
    +1 would attend. Dress/hygiene code strictly enforced.
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  12. #32
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    Re: Theoretical High Stakes Legacy Tournament

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I would only go to a $100+ buy-in tourney if the venue was extremely nice, there was a dress code, and cocktails were available. None of this generic shitty hotel conference room nonsense.

    Maybe I'm on to something here...private tables, no spectators milling around, and a noise policy. When your match is finished you shake hands, congratulate each other, and step out to the bar for conversation.

    I'd definately join a tournament like that. Finally no more stressing about disgusting and loud people aswel as having an extra reason to get the fancy clothes out of the closets :)

  13. #33
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    Re: Theoretical High Stakes Legacy Tournament

    Step 1 - Rent out floor of swanky building in Manhattan (so I can play in it)
    Step 2-5 - Hookers, Alcohol, Bouncers, Nice Tables
    Step 6 - No Bullshit
    Step 7 - Play Magic with your Swag out.

    Profit is somewhere down the line.

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  14. #34
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    Re: Theoretical High Stakes Legacy Tournament

    Step 7 is a deal breaker for me.
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  15. #35
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    Re: Theoretical High Stakes Legacy Tournament

    Quote Originally Posted by Richard Cheese View Post
    I would only go to a $100+ buy-in tourney if the venue was extremely nice, there was a dress code, and cocktails were available. None of this generic shitty hotel conference room nonsense.

    Maybe I'm on to something here...private tables, no spectators milling around, and a noise policy. When your match is finished you shake hands, congratulate each other, and step out to the bar for conversation.
    So when is this happening?
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  16. #36
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    Re: Theoretical High Stakes Legacy Tournament

    I think people are getting a little too theoretical here.

    #1- The number of "serious" Legacy players in the US is miniscule compared to the number of "serious" Poker players. On any given day more people probably play Poker in Atlantic City/Vegas then total number of people who have played in a real Legacy event in the past year.
    #2- It's a lot easier to pay a $100-$500 buy-in for a poker event because you didn't have to pay $1000+ before you showed up just to make sure you weren't playing the only deck in the room without 4 Aces and 4 Kings.
    #3- The average poker player probably has a lot more money then the average Magic player.

    So we can stop pretending like Magic is Poker now, k thx. Magic is and will always be lower stakes than Poker where the whole point is to win money. In Magic the reward is lower but so is the risk (by a huge margin).

    #4- A big point a lot of people seem to be missing. If you set your entry fee for an event at $500 you might get 10-20 people. If you set your fee for an event at $100 you might get 50-100 people. If you set your entry fee at $50, well a GP is $40 and sometimes legacy GPs can get 1000+ people, and what's an extra $10? Everyone keeps talking shit about the people who are scared to enter an event with a high entry cost, but you WANT these people to come. They look at it as a small chance to do well, and otherwise $50 for a fun event and some trades/a reason to get out of town. It's like paying $50 to go to an amusement park for some people. And I gives a fuck WHY you show up. If you came to win or to have fun that's still more cash in the pool. If lowering your fee 50% brings in one "more casual player" for every "shark" who's willing to plop $100, congratulations you just doubled your attendance. Now rent some fucking tables out to vendors to cover your overhead because your theoretical event apparently puts 100% of the entry in the pool and otherwise someone is going to lose a lot of money unless they have ins with a lot of judges who work on charity and the most generous event hall ever.

    The way I see it "theory" aside, there are 2 ways to do "big payout events" in Legacy.

    #1- The SCG/Jupiter model. Lots of smaller events feeding into 1/2 bigger events. SCG has 2 Invis a year. Their payout for top 8 in these events is almost exactly the figure you throw out as a top 8 payout.
    Now what's the smart move if I'm the caliber of player who thinks throwing down $500 on a single event could be a power play? Play in 2 SCG open weekends that are closest to me in 6 months (so for my $500 I get 4 events @ $160 total entry leaving $340 to spend on food/travel/lodging), then I have 4 chances to money significant amounts and all I have to do is top 8 in 1 of 4 events or come close a number of times to qualify, or throw down $500 on a single day of MTG (not counting food/travel/lodging) and risk getting blown out by bad beats or some rando and get nothing for my troubles. Hmm.

    #2- Huge event. See Bazaar of Moxen for example. You basically bill yourself as an unofficial GP. Throw side events, rent out vendor tables, etc. Put up some guaranteed prizes and hope a bunch of people show up.
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  17. #37
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    Re: Theoretical High Stakes Legacy Tournament

    dontbiteitholmes
    A good point, and well made. But I would suggest that it is for that very reason that more high stakes tournaments could be used to attract attention to Legacy.

    Since there is a preamble buy-in in the range of $2,000 for any sanctioned Legacy tournament before you even walk through the door, the thought of winning $200 on a good weekend just doesn't justly warrant attention beyond those already interested in Magic. I feel that by generating a handful of headlines that pretty much say someone won money orders of magnitude beyond their initial investment, it would positively raise the level of interest in Legacy play beyond those already playing Magic. To stretch the poker similes further, once the publicity of potential winnings over buy-in become more widespread, there followed a large influx of players who were not established poker players. Wall street type people whose jobs were making calculated risk/reward decisions for profit found that their professional skills could be applied over a weekend for the potential to get a lot of money. And the complexities of high level Magic play can be huge selling point for people looking for a challenge. Just preparing for a tournament and predicting the meta is a challenge. But if the highest reward is to break even, it's no wonder nobody is interested.

    And I get why small entry/purse tournaments are popular, and I am not advocating their demise. But applying the same prize payout of a Standard tournament just doesn't scale fairly as you move up in level. I mean, SCG uses the same table for Sealed as they do for Legacy. So I am not surprised there is such a resistance in people breaking into Legacy. Small tournaments make sense in Standard and Draft, the mean age group there is high school and college, and the fees and upkeep fit nicely in their budget. But Legacy is a completely different animal. I go to tournaments and recognize Legacy as an adult game, people who have graduated and have jobs and are applying their wealth to a very expensive hobby instead of fast cars or what have you. Telling a high school kid they won $1,000 in their tournament is a huge deal for them. Telling me I won $1,000 in a Legacy tournament just sounds like I spent two grand and 12 hours to win one grand. It will cover car and house payments for the month, with some money left over for groceries.

    So it would be so much better of a pitch to people to tell them if they want to spend $100 on a deck and $40 on a tournament and hope to win $2,000 play Standard. On the other hand, if they want to spend $2,000 on a deck and $200 on a tournament, they could hope to win $500,000. You would generate much needed interest in the format and help justify the crazy expense that is Legacy.

    And while local laws vary, gambling laws are limited to games of chance, and have no jurisdiction over games of skill. The argument is being made across the country that poker is a game of skill, which is why online poker is being investigated not for gambling reasons, but for money laundering/tax evasion reasons.
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  18. #38

    Re: Theoretical High Stakes Legacy Tournament

    Everyone could just stop being pussies and show up to Legacy and Vintage worlds ... we could all agree to put $25 each in a pickle jar before hand. Winner takes it all, loser takes it all. Winner takes it all over the top.

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    Re: Theoretical High Stakes Legacy Tournament

    poker/magic comparision - less sense. Consider the deck, or collection your bankroll, and we are getting closer. Most serious legacy players have a "bankroll" comprised of their owned cards, far lager than 100/200/300 dollar buyin - making that sensible. just like a pokerplayer playing 1100 dollar wsop event, should have a large bankroll.

    and then there always random fish/durdlers who fork over the cash for fun and the right to dream of winning.

  20. #40
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    Re: Theoretical High Stakes Legacy Tournament

    Quote Originally Posted by Chikenbok View Post
    Step 1 - Rent out floor of swanky building in Manhattan (so I can play in it)
    Step 2-5 - Hookers, Alcohol, Bouncers, Nice Tables
    Step 6 - No Bullshit
    Step 7 - Play Magic with your Swag out.

    Profit is somewhere down the line.

    Please come clean shaved.
    Swag? Really? This is a gentleman's game, and gentlemen don't have swag, they have class. Allow me to illustrate:

    Swag:


    Class:


    Here's a handy guide for proper gentleman's attire.:
    Black Tie Guide

    Also no hookers. Cocktail waitresses are fine, but they are to be treated as ladies.

    @Koby - BYOB? Unless you're after something pretty rare, most upscale hotel bars should have a good selection of high-end stuff. What's your poison?

    @Phazon - Whenever we're all available? Seriously though, if people have enough interest in this we can try to set something up. It would never be sanctioned, and most of the entry fee would probably go to covering the venue, but it would be a good time. Hell, if I could manage GP Vegas I'd try to set something up then, but I don't think I can make it.
    I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel

    "Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."

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