What would you do with Tinker in Legacy?

[Megadeus]

I think one reason is that a lot of people just dont enjoy playing the deck. Survival looks like a hell of a lot of fun to play but SnT is just dumb combo.

[Worldslayer]

1) Anyone who thinks Blightsteel Colossus is safer in Legacy than Vintage didn't think it all the way through. You think we didn't have removal for him? Jace, StP, Welder, Hurkyll's Recall/Steel Sabotage, Chain of Vapor, Deglamer was run specifically for blightsteel colossus, and in the end it STILL wasn't removal that pushed him out: It was us finding a newer, faster, shinier toy to Tinker into (hi, Keyvault). Tinker unbanned, you'd bet your ass i'd be jamming u/b/x disruptive Tinker.dec in Legacy. I'm going to cast duresseize twice, force of will once, and Tinker once, and you're going to die.

2) I'm confused. Why am I not running Tinker and Show and Tell in the same "Protect the Blightsteel" deck in this scenario again?

[thefringthing]

I remain unconvinced that anything you can do with Tinker is as good as putting Griselbrand into play.

I agree with the majority of posters that Tinker is more easily enabled and places fewer constraints on deckbuilding. I'm not so sure that the greater difficulty of enabling Show and Tell puts it on the opposite side of the "too powerful for Legacy" line though. Maybe the comparison I should made is to Oath of Druids or Flash, but that's pretty far afield.

Another thing worth mentioning is that it is possible that Show and Tell is a lot more popular in my regional metagame (Ontario) than in other places, and so the issue may seem more important to me than it is to others. I play Legacy on MTGO as well, and there's no denying that Show and Tell strategies (and relatedly, TinFins) are very, very popular there.

[Will_L]

I remain unconvinced that anything you can do with Tinker is as good as putting Griselbrand into play.

I agree with the majority of posters that Tinker is more easily enabled and places fewer constraints on deckbuilding. I'm not so sure that the greater difficulty of enabling Show and Tell puts it on the opposite side of the "too powerful for Legacy" line though. Maybe the comparison I should made is to Oath of Druids or Flash, but that's pretty far afield.

Another thing worth mentioning is that it is possible that Show and Tell is a lot more popular in my regional metagame (Ontario) than in other places, and so the issue may seem more important to me than it is to others. I play Legacy on MTGO as well, and there's no denying that Show and Tell strategies (and relatedly, TinFins) are very, very popular there.

Fellow Ontarian reporting in.

Yes Show and Tell decks, especially Sneak and Show are heavily represented here.

[Aggro_zombies]

I remain unconvinced that anything you can do with Tinker is as good as putting Griselbrand into play.

I agree with the majority of posters that Tinker is more easily enabled and places fewer constraints on deckbuilding. I'm not so sure that the greater difficulty of enabling Show and Tell puts it on the opposite side of the "too powerful for Legacy" line though. Maybe the comparison I should made is to Oath of Druids or Flash, but that's pretty far afield.

Another thing worth mentioning is that it is possible that Show and Tell is a lot more popular in my regional metagame (Ontario) than in other places, and so the issue may seem more important to me than it is to others. I play Legacy on MTGO as well, and there's no denying that Show and Tell strategies (and relatedly, TinFins) are very, very popular there.

The fact that Griselbrand enables multiple (potentially) degenerate decks suggests the fault lies with him, not so much with SnT. VVine was only ever good in Survival, and has failed to make waves since then despite how everyone complained at the time that Survival was safe and that it was the creature that should take the ban.

Regardless of whether the Tinker comparison is legitimate (I think not), it obscures the true issue, which is whether SnT is bannable. That issue has been - and is still being - discussed to death elsewhere on the site.

[Worldslayer]

I remain unconvinced that anything you can do with Tinker is as good as putting Griselbrand into play.

As good as Griseldaddy is, he needs help. He is exactly as ridiculous as the rest of your deck, which s why he's essentially pigeonholed into the broken/combo archetypes. He's really good when he draws you more Sneak Attack fatties, or more rituals and Tendrils, or whatever. He's pretty mediocre in a shell that just wants to disrupt and control, though, which is exactly the archetype something like Tinker would open up.

Would you still want to be on Sneak and Show when someone could run a host of black disruption (like, 5-8 easily), a single NONSYMMETRICAL kill condition that costs the same as Show and Tell, and counterspells and other protective measures that could probably fit into something like Counterbalance top?

Would you want to play Storm against U/B Discard/Counterspells Instagib? What WOULD you want to play against that deck?

That's sort of the beauty of Blightsteel Colossus in comparison to Griselbrand - Griselbrand wants other things to be happening to make him shine like a rockstar. Blightsteel really just wants a minute in the ring.

If Tinker came off the list, would absolutely play the Tinker -> Blightsteel list over the Show and Tell - Griselbrand lists, and not only because I think they'd be heavily, HEAVILY favored in the 2U Sorcery mirror. The design space Blightsteel eats up is just a lot less, and a lot more generic than something like Griselbrand.

[ReAnimator]

I remain unconvinced that anything you can do with Tinker is as good as putting Griselbrand into play.

But that is pretty irreverent, as others have pointed out. You can't just compare things and say that equals banning. Reanimate puts gris into play, Academy rector puts Omni into play, etc. Either the things you are putting into play are the problem or S&T is too good at what it does, which is totally a fine argument to have, but it has nothing to do with Gris or Tinker.

I agree with the majority of posters that Tinker is more easily enabled and places fewer constraints on deckbuilding. I'm not so sure that the greater difficulty of enabling Show and Tell puts it on the opposite side of the "too powerful for Legacy" line though. Maybe the comparison I should made is to Oath of Druids or Flash, but that's pretty far afield.

If S&T is Tier 1 and Tinker lets you play a similarly powerful effect but with more slots for disruption and/or searching then that is obviously way more powerful all on it's own.
But again comparisons don't really work as far as banning discussions go, they don't really get you anywhere, as this thread has proven.

[baghdadbob]

But that is pretty irreverent, as others have pointed out. You can't just compare things and say that equals banning. Reanimate puts gris into play, Academy rector puts Omni into play, etc. Either the things you are putting into play are the problem or S&T is too good at what it does, which is totally a fine argument to have, but it has nothing to do with Gris or Tinker.



If S&T is Tier 1 and Tinker lets you play a similarly powerful effect but with more slots for disruption and/or searching then that is obviously way more powerful all on it's own.
But again comparisons don't really work as far as banning discussions go, they don't really get you anywhere, as this thread has proven.

The real question is shouldn't they unban channel to make mono green playable?

[Lord Seth]

Well, okay, but I don't see how SnT being bannably overpowered is comparable in any way to Tinker. Aside from the same mana cost, the two cards are nothing alike. That people jumped on Tinker as being terrible for the format has no bearing on whether SnT should be banned at this time; it just means that Tinker is exactly where it's supposed to be, on the Banned List.

I don't think you can make a direct comparison between Tinker into Blightsteel and SnT into Griselly Bear, nor do I think we should really be trying to ban cards by analogy. Undercity Informer is sort of like Hermit Druid, but I don't think anyone is seriously trying to argue that one being in the format implies the other should also be in the format. Tinker is bad for Legacy, period, and that has little to nothing to do with SnT because the two cards are completely different, have different sets of interactions, and are made broken (or not, depending on your PoV) by different things. I think the current arrangement - Tinker banned, SnT not - is fine.

I've actually seen people do that on this very forum.

[evanmartyr]

VVine was only ever good in Survival, and has failed to make waves since then despite how everyone complained at the time that Survival was safe and that it was the creature that should take the ban.

This was one of those situations where the interaction between two potentially very powerful cards hits a critical mass of stupid. Banning either would have been enough, and Legacy players tend to like the versatility or hard-to-replicate effects rather than just a dumb creature. A dumb green creature. Green creatures are dumb...so they'd rather the dumb green critter got banned than the engine that enabled a ton of creative deck building.

[LOurs]

Maybe I should have guessed that people would miss the point unless I spelled it out explicitly for them, but as I mentioned earlier, I'm not arguing that Tinker would be a fair, fun, or interesting addition to the format. My point was to show that Show and Tell and related strategies, while not comparable on every axis (notably Tinker is easier to enable and places fewer constraints on deckbuilding), produce similar immediately game-ending effects for the same investment of cards and mana and thereby to indirectly argue that the format might be more fun without them. Congratulations on missing the point, those quoted above.

And you're speaking about people missing the point … let me laugh.

What I could call "to miss the point" would be to compare Tinker & SnT : everyone who played these cards knows that there is no way to compare them at any level . It is so absurd, regarding strategies, impact on meta, power … that the comparison itself leads the full debate to "miss the point". Plus there even is not a correct technical basis to compare in what you're stating, as it is obviously not the same investment of cards & mana.

You're arguing that they have a common point : they finish the game. It is pretty a nonsense comparison basis.
I invite you to compare dark ritual & black lotus, because "while not comparable on every axis (Black Lotus is easier to enable and places fewer constraints on deckbuilding), produce similar immediately acceleration effects for the same investment of cards and mana".

Nothing coming from that angle of view could provide any viable argument : that reasonning is simply not correct for many reasons.

[kiblast]

YawgWin ends the game as well, for the same casting cost and speed. Should be unban it? Hint: no.

Tinker is a safe wincondition that can be jammed in any UXx control deck just by playing 4 Sensei's Divining top (which we all know is already very good on its own)and 4-5 Artifact lands. Basically the only duress it puts to your deck is to play 4-5 additional non basics. You don't even need to run crap like Mox Diamond, Mox Opal or Chrome Mox.

As much as I'd like to see legacy as a Control Vs Combo Vs Aggrocontrol/Fish format with pure Aggro out of the picture, unbanning Tinker would break it too much.Legacy would probably shrink to Uwx Tinker Countertop Vs UBgr Storm Combo Vs Aggrocontrol (probably Merfolk, Goblin or Death and Taxes) Vs some janky Blue Mud stompy... and that format would suck.

[thefringthing]

In what sense has aggro not been out of the picture for the last year or so? I think Show and Tell is one of two main factors contributing to the disappearance of Zoo. (The other is the disappearance of Merfolk, though that deck seems to be making a modest comeback lately.)

[Julian23]

In what sense has aggro not been out of the picture for the last year or so? I think Show and Tell is one of two main factors contributing to the disappearance of Zoo. (The other is the disappearance of Merfolk, though that deck seems to be making a modest comeback lately.)

The word you are looking for is Maverick. Killed both Merfolk and Zoo.

[(nameless one)]

The word you are looking for is Maverick. Killed both Merfolk and Zoo.

I thought it was both Terminus and Batterskull?

[joemauer]

As a combo card Tinker isn't as powerful as Show and Yell into Grisslebrand or Emmy.

As a control card win condition Tinker isn't as poweful as Jace.

I do believe Tinker is fine, but who wants to play a format with Show and Tell & Tinker?

[nedleeds]

Is this thread a giant troll? Tinker is the win con and the enabler in one card, in a format with 4 x Brainstorm to shuffle the awkward BSC back into your library. You only need Tinker in hand you don't need the wincon because it's Show and Tell your library for only you. The other artifact is not relevant in a format with artifact lands, tops, hell ... ichor wellspring.

[apple713]

If tinker was unbanned in Legacy, I'd be reminded of the time when Mental misstep was legal. Legacy would be defined in two ways, the winners who played tinker, and the losers who played without tinker.

I'd play a U/R welder/tinker deck maybe splash black for tezeret because they are all really synergetic.
OR
I'd do just about anything I wanted in legacy with tinker because it is that versatile.

That being said, Tinker is way more powerful in vintage than legacy because of the cards you can use with it. Tinker provides you with your missing piece to win the game. Example, Tinker my mox pearl to get voltaic key cause I have a time vault in play.

Similar things can be done in legacy but the powerlevel of legacy is much lower than vintage. Tinker is still to BUSTED to EVER be unbanned.

Tinker is only like 100 Million times superior to Show and Tell. Let me tell you why...With show and tell you are stuck with what you draw, either emrakul or griselbrand, you dont always get to choose. Tinker, there is always a choice and usually you have an answer for any and all occasions, not to mention it's a 1 card combo.... With the right cards in your deck you should be able to get out of almost any situation. Tinker Gets Exactly what you want when you want it.

In short the power of tinker lies in its versatility. It should never be unbanned in legacy. I am almost certain that you have never played with tinker because you would understand how powerful it is if you played with it. It would warp the format. Cards that warp the format get banned. See survival of the fittest, flash, tolarian academy, jace the mind sculptor.


As for griselbrand being better, I'd just tinker in a memnarch and beat you down with your bright idea.

PS: while we are unbanning cards please have them unban mana drain so i can cast my tinker easier!

[apple713]

As a combo card Tinker isn't as powerful as Show and Yell into Grisslebrand or Emmy.

As a control card win condition Tinker isn't as poweful as Jace.

I do believe Tinker is fine, but who wants to play a format with Show and Tell & Tinker?

Why debate tinker vs show and tell? People would start running tinker in their Show and tell decks. Is you goal to make show and tell decks more consistently broken? Now I have a use for all those extra lotus petals i draw and never need...

[Lemnear]

4 FoW
4 Brainstorm
4 Tinker
4 Seat of the Synod
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Tinker-Bot of Choice

... own the format


Edit: Would be hilarious in Legacy MUD too