Positively, and suspect my opinion is the majority.
Negatively, and suspect my opinion is the majority.
Positively, and suspect my opinion is the minority.
Negatively, and suspect my opinion is the minority.
Indifferent, and suspect my opinion is the majority.
Indifferent, and suspect my opinion is the minority.
You do realize whats going to happen to your precious investments should the legacy format die right?Originally Posted by iamajellydonut
I have a set of of dual lands, and its people like you that are going to kill the monetary value and fun factor they provide me with.
I agree with the previous posters.
If the format/Magic dies, your so called "investment" is boned.
Reserve list staples shouldn't be treated as investment. All you're currently doing is buying into a bubble, and like all bubbles, it's going to crash eventually.
I own a significant number of duals and fetches and other Legacy staples. Most of these were worth much less only a handful of years ago; them being much less expensive again would be something I could live with, especially if the reason was that they were more readily available, and not that the demand for the format had suddenly collapsed, which is a real possibility if the price bubble explodes because of dumbass speculators and people that actually think this is a stable long-term investment for some God-fucked reason.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Pretty much this.
When the reserved list debate was raging in 2010, I was sitting on a playset of every Legacy-legal card in English, including Arabian Nights, Legends and Portal 3. I would have *loved* for them to have abolished the list. Instead they didn't, and I felt that put an expiration date on Legacy, and I cashed out. I'd still be happily playing Legacy if they had decided to push it instead of Modern.
As it stands right now, I'm debating selling the rest of my cards. Instead of a couple thousand of dollars per year from me, in the form of sealed product and drafts, Wizards is getting $0.
Edit: I'm also pretty involved in the tuning and modding scene of a large German brand of cars. This debate is like people bitching and moaning about owners buying replicas of hard to find, old parts and accessories that were made over a decade ago, or sometimes longer, because they have the original ones. That almost does not happen; in my case, I look for the originals as much as I can, but some things are pretty much unobtainium, so to speak. I don't care that one of my buddies has a set of AC Schnitzer rims that are identical to mine, except that his are made in China and mine are made in Germany. Nor does anyone else that I've spoken to so far; we are just happy that he is one more person to enjoy our hobby. Why can't it be the same for Magic? Why do people want to protect their 'investment' in little pieces of cardboard so much? The abundance of, say, replica body kits do not in any way diminish the value of the originals; in many cases, by making them available for a wider audience to acquire, interest in the original rises.
I just find this position of "I made the investment, so if you don't/can't, go play Standard or Modern" extremely petty, and what will eventually kill Legacy. Sad, really.
It's only the asshats who treat their cards as an investment instead of hobby.
There are more than enough people who say "I'm fine as long as people are playing".
But it's a mentality that's so much more prevalent in Magic than in cars, and modding cars ain't cheap. I haven't heard anyone yet with original bodykits, for example, complain about others having replicas. I've seen people even send in original, no-longer-available, pieces to replica manufacturers to duplicate and make it available to the community at large. It's a whole different mentality, and we're talking people who spend six figures on a hobby. And they do it fully conscious that they'll never see that money again.
The problem, as always, is people viewing cards as some sort of investment that must be protected, versus what they really are: cards that are part of a game for persons 13 years or older.
If people could, they sure would make new print runs of old, expensive cards. Except Hasbro's lawyers wouldn't like that.
Sure, but the whole point of the matter is that the people who own the original thing don't care if there are "replicas", or reprints if you want to call them that.
more replicas, less value... so why paying thousands of dolar for black lotus and then gets reprint?
Why? My wheels are still the real deal. It's pimper, so to speak. Why would I want a cheap knock-off if I can afford the real one? My wheels aren't being made any more. They can flood the market with replicas, for all I care (and people have... This design is widely available, but real ones get snap bought at high prices).
Some people are satisfied with having a fake, a reprint, so to speak. For others, having something rare and difficult to acquire is not only 'better', but more satisfying. Why do people pay thousands of dollars for Summer rares, for example? Just buy a Revised Underground Sea, by your reasoning.
You may not care about the value of your cards. There are thousands who do though. And of those thousands, many of them are probably willing to sacrifice some value to make the format more accessible for others, but some do not.
So where do you draw the line? Satisfy the whiners that want to keep their investment or satisfy the whiners who want cheaper cards? Who's right and who's wrong?
This will be not the death of Legacy, but what will cause the spiral into obscurity. Just like Vintage before it.
I think the investment mentality is hilarious. I own a bunch of expensive cards. Some I got cheap, some I got for lots of money. The common factor here is that I bought them for their utility - to play the game, that is - not with any intent to sell. The only value they have for me is the amount of games against others I can use them for. Reprints would decrease the monetary value substantially, yes. The hell do I care, though, because the actual utility of my abominably expensive cardboard just skyrocketed instead of dwindling by the day? I might be able to finish a couple decks way more easily and get to actually playing? What use is a 2k Lotus or something if people are only willing to pay 600 for it? Jack. What use is a 600 Lotus if I can go ask someone at an FLGS if they're up for a game of Vintage, and they're relatively likely to answer yes instead of no? A lot.
Novel, ain't it?
^This
This investment collector notion is hilarious. As someone with a high value collection, it isn't about a drop in the value of my collection. Its about putting in the fucking work. I've spent a significant amount of time, effort, and sacrifice to get where I am. Why should others have everything handed to them on a silver platter? If you are as emotionally invested in participating in this game, as so many of you claim to be, put in the work.
Everyone has a different line.
I personally wouldn't mind if dual lands and other staples got released as judge promos, or in special sets such as From the Vaults, Commander's Arsenal, or a future Legacy Masters (with a small print run). This would require getting rid of the Reserved List. It would probably cost me on the order of a thousand dollars in the short term, but it will allow more players to join. That's a sacrifice that I'm willing to make. I'd like to dial things back to when dual lands were $20-50 and Forces were $25.
On the other hand, I do not want to see dual lands printed as rares in core sets M14 through M18. Those Revised Underground Seas would probably fetch $10 instead of $150 if you could get the black bordered core set versions for $5. There are probably an outspoken few Legacy players who would be okay with this because "they never plan on selling their cards anyway". However, there are other players like me who never saw our collections as investment, but still cared (at least to a small extent) about its long-term value: there was no way in hell I would have paid $20 for a piece of cardboard (let alone three figures), if there were a significant risk that the value of the card would completely plummet in a few years.
Wizards has draw the line all the way at "no reprints". I'd like them do away with the Reserved List too, but I hope they never adopt the notion that cards are inherently worthless and that it's fair game to flood the market. The notion that "it's just a game, and these are pieces of cardboard" belies the fact that it's a trading card game and the secondary market and individual card values are essential to the long-term health of the format even among those who don't purely view it as a stock market.
Edit: The hypothetical question often posed to players (as far as I've seen since 2002 Vintage to current Legacy) is "would you rather devalue your collection or allow more players to join"? When posed as a tradeoff like that, it certainly depends on the extent to which each effect takes place. I wouldn't want to lose thousands of dollars in card value just to let two players join, for instance, but I'd gladly do that if several thousand could. However, it's worth noting that card values for Eternal staples have never been higher, while at the same time, Legacy has never been more popular or well-supported, so that hypothetical question is a bit disingenuous. There may come a time in the future when the question becomes more realistic, and I expect if that time ever comes, even those who are currently more supportive of the Reserved List will start to change their opinion.
This sounds like one of those stereotyped old people who complain about how kids shouldn't be using calculators because back in their day, they had to put in extra work to use slide rulers. Or how people should wash and dry their clothes by hand rather than using a washer/dryer machine, because that's what they had to do when they were younger.
Easy for you to say. Unfortunately, you (and I to an extent, although I have a hunch you make more than me :p) are the minority. Teenagers and college students and, heck, recent graduates can't really afford $100+ for a ton of staples to play the format. So you have to bring it down to something realistic, somehow.
I'd be ecstatic if prices went down to 2007-2008 levels.
You're all entitled to your opinion. If it were putting food on the table or a roof over the head of your family, I would agree that everyone deserves a fair shake. If you desire something non essential you need to learn to work for it.
I don't make that much money Mr. C. In fact I make less than six figures a year.
What are the limits of your standings regarding price maintenance? Is it that you have all the magic cards you will ever need, so if the prices rise by a factor of 10 in time, you stand to only gain? Do you foresee there being a point where you could consider the course as current being unsustainable?Ertai's Familiar
I do agree that Legacy should not be cheap, there should be a genuine barrier to keepcasuals and noobsthose unprepared from getting hurt. I want to avoid having some kid showing up with their snowflake deck only to have it crushed by the whole field, and then decide that Magic isn't for them. A high price barrier is key to portraying the fact that Legacy is fast and unforgiving, and that are decks are highly tuned race cars that cost at least somewhat a significant amount of money.
But the way things are now just seem like flavor text to any Wish come to life. By not wanting lands at $10 each means I get them at $100 each.
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