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Thread: [Deck] MonoU OmniTell

  1. #21
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    Re: Omniclash and Omnimaniac

    Quote Originally Posted by catmint View Post
    Maybe it is also a phenomenon that I can see with 2 very good austrian players and friends of mine. One is playing Storm - the other Canadian and canadian gets his ass kicked all the time like its the worst matchup. In tournments however the canadian player wins a lot against torm and the storm player has a tougher time against canadian. Our explanation is that the better you know each others playstyle the more it favours the combo player. Therefore I would recommend testing against different Canadian players and not only your buddy and yourself to get more reliable results.
    Sorry, I hope I'm not hijacking the thread too much, but this was a really interesting statement to me. I've played against alphastryk piloting Miracles with a lot with a bunch of different combo decks and I'm very, very positive in tournament matches even if I'm not always so much in playtesting. But on the other hand, my percentages against Miracles played by other people is much worse. I wonder if that's part of what you're describing - I just know his playstyle and I get to make the decision to go for it or not.


    Quote Originally Posted by emidln
    A negative storm matchup is randomly something that can be addressed, although doing so tends to weaken the Thresh matchup enough to not really make it worthwhile until OmniHalls has significant penetration. The reason I was advocating a singleton Underground Sea and sideboard Thoughtseize is that these cards significantly increase your matchups against other combo decks (Storm, Reanimator/TinFins, Sneak Attack, and OmniHalls). Thoughtseize can also deal with cards like Krosan Grip if they begin to see play. Further, the line of play in the R&D->Lab Man build included stacking 2x Thoughtseize so you can always cast Thoughtseize (2x so you can cast off Dream Halls by pitching the other Thoughtseize) pre-Lab Man (so you can even beat the most random hate like Sudden Shock/Death/Spoiling).
    It seemed like you were also advocating cutting Leylines. So you see them as less necessary than Lejay? Or alternatively do you just see the Thoughtseize package as specifically a way to tune the deck if you don't expect lots of discard decks and do expect lots of combo?

    It was suggested in the Omniscience thread, but I could see playing a couple of Lim-Dul's Vaults would help tremendously with assembling a 3-card combo with different card types. It also has the nice benefit that you don't need Impulse or Trickbind in the maindeck for a Firemind's Foreskin pile.

    I've done a little bit of testing with LDV, but so far it's been irrelevant - the opponent put up basically no resistance.
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  2. #22
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    Re: Omniclash and Omnimaniac

    Quote Originally Posted by emidln View Post
    [..] Enter the Infinite resolves. Player A draws their deck. They lack 3 mana for another SnT, so they sculpt a perfect 7 card hand and discard Emrakul reshuffling their deck. You better kill them on your turn with cards on board [..]
    I assume this is just a minor brainfart since Enter the Infinite says that you have no maximum hand size (until your next turn). Hence you don't have to discard, which in turns, makes the situation even worse for player B.

  3. #23

    Re: Omniclash and Omnimaniac

    Quote Originally Posted by NesretepNoj View Post
    I assume this is just a minor brainfart since Enter the Infinite says that you have no maximum hand size (until your next turn). Hence you don't have to discard, which in turns, makes the situation even worse for player B.
    Yes. I forgot that line on ETI. So no decisions about discarding, they just counter anything you attempt to play and then go off again.
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  4. #24

    Re: Omniclash and Omnimaniac

    Quote Originally Posted by phazonmuant View Post

    I've done a little bit of testing with LDV, but so far it's been irrelevant - the opponent put up basically no resistance.
    I tested them for a very brief time period and found that their benefit as a 1 or 2 off is marginal compared against the fact that you have to run 2 Underground Seas which makes you far more vulnerable against Wasteland-Decks. It is obvious when you play vs decks like Threshold or D&T that having enough mana is king in this deck. Usually you cannot - and that's what also Lejays explains in his primer - search for everything at the same time (lands, combo, protection). Even more true if you play against taxing, soft counter or denial strategies. Also consider that the BoM list just plays 19 lands. If you ever want to cast these Dream Halls you better run as much basics as possible.

  5. #25
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    Re: Omniclash and Omnimaniac

    Quote Originally Posted by emidln View Post
    Yes. I forgot that line on ETI. So no decisions about discarding, they just counter anything you attempt to play and then go off again.
    Shame on you. ;D It was your very elaborate post about this deck that made me play it today and it happened that I got my Dream Halls bounced in resp to Enter the Infinite. So I just passed the turn and then proceeded to smash him.

    I went 4-2-0, my MUs were:

    Miracles 2-0
    High Tide 2-1
    Dredge 1-2 (one mana short during g2, g3 was simply terrible)
    Merfolk 2-0
    GWR Humans/Werewolves 2-1 (I really had no idea what the hell I was playing against, g2 he had a massive overextend and I was one turn short of winning)
    MonoB Pox 1-2 (I did a terrible mistake g2, I let a Smallpox resolve and discarded a redundant SnT, then got hit by Extirpate. If I'd have discarded FoW instead, I could have simply gone off)

    So, if I were a more intelligent person, I'd have finished 2nd instead of 6th.

    However, this deck is ridiculously powerful. I am just not convinced about the Leylines in the SB. I played Leylines instead of Thoughtseize because I saw like 3 Jund, 3 Pox decks and a mono red burn. On the other hand there was a Springtide, 2 SneakShows, 2 ANTs.
    I had no idea, but I have yet to figure out whether it is a good idea to let the opponent play ALWAYS. I should have done it against Pox in order to smoothly mulligan into Leyline. But with Sinkhole and Smallpox being the worst spells... I dunno.
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  6. #26
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    Re: Omniclash and Omnimaniac

    Quote Originally Posted by Nekrataal View Post
    I tested them for a very brief time period and found that their benefit as a 1 or 2 off is marginal compared against the fact that you have to run 2 Underground Seas which makes you far more vulnerable against Wasteland-Decks. It is obvious when you play vs decks like Threshold or D&T that having enough mana is king in this deck. Usually you cannot - and that's what also Lejays explains in his primer - search for everything at the same time (lands, combo, protection). Even more true if you play against taxing, soft counter or denial strategies. Also consider that the BoM list just plays 19 lands. If you ever want to cast these Dream Halls you better run as much basics as possible.
    You have an interesting definition of "far more vulnerable."

    I don't think adding two wasteable lands is enough of a downside not to run a card that essentially says "stack your deck." If you're playing against a deck like Death and Taxes, you can side out the Lim-Dul's Vaults and not fetch the Underground Seas. I usually fetch the Underground Sea and cast Lim-Dul's Vault the turn before I'm going to win in their end step. The only way I'm going to get Wastelanded is if they had an untapped one that turn. As for casting Dream Halls, if you resolve a Lim-Dul's Vault you likely won't need to win by casting Dream Halls as you can search a Show and Tell plus whatever other piece you need for about 4-6 life.

    I'm really puzzled by The Source's continual rejection of Lim-Dul's Vault. Vampiric Tutor is rightfully banned. Lim-Dul's Vault is effectively double Vampiric Tutor (BB, Search your library for two cards and put them on top, you lose 4 life) only it pitches to Force of Will and is easier to splash.
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  7. #27
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    Re: Omniclash and Omnimaniac

    First of all, props to Lejay and Jo_la_Loose that elaborated the vast majority of design choices of the list. Props also to emidln for sharing his take on Omnihalls.

    While acknowledging to the GP build raw power and stability, I was unconfortable with the 3 DH and CW MD:
    - DH acted in the list as a plan B for Omniscience as well as a S&T in disguise, thus limiting its effectiveness.
    Firemind's Foresight is indeed a valuable addition to the SB. DH becomes much more of a valid Omniscience backup avoiding unfavorable hand setups effectively.
    - CW is what bring the deck its versatility and protection before or after going off. 3 seemed too little in that regard. Given we wanted to run the full DH set and F'sF backup plan, 4 was a obvious adjustment.

    During testings before and after GP Strasbourg, we tried to trim the manabase to 19 lands to gain a slot for the Firemind's Foresight plan => While I was quite fond of emidln version, I was strongly unfavorable to a black splash. As seen above, even a lone U.sea can become a nuisance when it comes to ramping to 5 mana dodging Wastelands.
    I don't feel the net gain of 4 of all-around disruption SB + LDV MD is a incentive strong enough to open yourself even slightly to land disruption.
    My teamate Nicolas encountered plenty of situations during the BOM when a grip containing U.Sea instead of a basic Island would have been a clear mulligan.

    The adjustments I'd propose to the BOM list are listed bellow :

    19 LANDS
    2 Scalding Tarn
    7 Island
    3 City of Traitors (+1)
    1 Ancient Tomb (-1)
    4 Flooded Strand
    2 Polluted Delta

    33 INSTANTS and SORCERIES
    4 Show and Tell
    4 Preordain
    4 Ponder
    4 Force of Will (+1)
    4 Enter the Infinite
    4 Brainstorm
    4 Cunning Wish
    3 Pact of Negation
    1 Impulse
    0 Flusterstorm (-1)
    1 Intuition

    8 OTHER SPELLS
    4 Omniscience
    4 Dream Halls

    SIDEBOARD
    1 Pact of Negation
    4 Leyline of Sanctity
    1 Slaughter Pact
    1 Intuition
    1 Trickbind
    1 Wipe Away
    1 Search//Development
    1 Laboratory Maniac
    1 Firemind’s Foresight
    0 Echoing Truth (-1)
    1 Sapphire Charm (+1)
    0 Surgical Extraction (-1)
    0 Force Of Will (-1)
    1 Noxious Revival (+1)
    1 Defense Grid (+1)

    I can't find the room for a second and third Defense Grid in the SB and strongly believing the 3 MD Pacts are a necessary evil.
    God, I would love to swap one of those for a MD Defense Grid as they often act on a similar level against countermagic, but Pacts not costing a single mana is enough to convince me to do otherwise.
    A Gitaxian Probe or two would be stellar in the MD as well but I don't want to lose any of the cantrips already in the main as they are crucial to the deck consistancy.

    A side note to conclude: Nicolas Goldberg's run in this year BOM could have been a whole lot different if people were prepared for the list and knew its vulnerabilities as opposed to Jean-Mary's one. This is the most elegant point: Both lists operate quite the same till they kill you. Never scoop to a resolved EtI because you'd get useful intels on the version you are playing against (MD Emrakul or not ? Maniac kill ?) as the two lists and their variants don't fold to the same situations.

  8. #28

    Re: Omniclash and Omnimaniac

    Quote Originally Posted by OrGy View Post

    I can't find the room for a second and third Defense Grid in the SB and strongly believing the 3 MD Pacts are a necessary evil.
    .
    Eh does the deck really need both Slaughter Pact and Sapphire Charm? Both slots seem like they are their for the same thing. I have never played this flavor of show and tell deck but in regular ol sneak and show 3 defense grid are the best sb cards imo. Beating REB/Pyroblast is miserable otherwise.

  9. #29
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    Re: Omniclash and Omnimaniac

    Quote Originally Posted by Kuma View Post
    I don't think adding two wasteable lands is enough of a downside not to run a card that essentially says "stack your deck."
    The problem is that there are a few aggressive decks against which you can't afford that amount of lifeloss, especially when you play Ancient Tomb at the same time.

    If you're playing against a deck like Death and Taxes, you can side out the Lim-Dul's Vaults and not fetch the Underground Seas. I usually fetch the Underground Sea and cast Lim-Dul's Vault the turn before I'm going to win in their end step.
    Nevertheless there is a statistical chance that you will eventually draw them and have to play them. And at that point they will be hit instantly by Wasteland (because the opp finally has a target for his Wasteland he has been sitting on). This also makes mulligan decisions tougher when you draw your initial 7 and U-Sea being your only land. If your 1st Turn cantrips misses a land, you die instantly to Wasteland. However, with a basic Island, I'd still keep it and keep digging for lands and don't have to worry about Wasteland.

    LDV is a powerful card, but at the same time it's clunky and thus I don't find it to be splash-worthy.
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  10. #30

    Re: Omniclash and Omnimaniac

    Quote Originally Posted by OrGy View Post
    First of all, props to Lejay and Jo_la_Loose that elaborated the vast majority of design choices of the list. Props also to emidln for sharing his take on Omnihalls.

    While acknowledging to the GP build raw power and stability, I was unconfortable with the 3 DH and CW MD:
    - DH acted in the list as a plan B for Omniscience as well as a S&T in disguise, thus limiting its effectiveness.
    Firemind's Foresight is indeed a valuable addition to the SB. DH becomes much more of a valid Omniscience backup avoiding unfavorable hand setups effectively.
    - CW is what bring the deck its versatility and protection before or after going off. 3 seemed too little in that regard. Given we wanted to run the full DH set and F'sF backup plan, 4 was a obvious adjustment.
    I was of the same opinion at first, even thinking that the split should be 4/3 in favor of DH because it is the better enabler. But after playing the deck intensifly over the last 2 weeks I see DH really just as a backup plan. There are enough decks that make it hard to reach 5 mana at all and in time, so the backup plan often is not the most attractive. Also DH is symmetrical and sometimes allows the opponent some extra plays. As a result the FF plan is an even rarer necessity. If I would have to give a number I would say it is less than 5% of all games. The FF plan comes with a cost to SB slots and maindeck slots so as much as I like it I currently think it is not needed.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrGy View Post
    During testings before and after GP Strasbourg, we tried to trim the manabase to 19 lands to gain a slot for the Firemind's Foresight plan => While I was quite fond of emidln version, I was strongly unfavorable to a black splash. As seen above, even a lone U.sea can become a nuisance when it comes to ramping to 5 mana dodging Wastelands.
    I don't feel the net gain of 4 of all-around disruption SB + LDV MD is a incentive strong enough to open yourself even slightly to land disruption.
    My teamate Nicolas encountered plenty of situations during the BOM when a grip containing U.Sea instead of a basic Island would have been a clear mulligan.
    I totally agree with you on the U.Sea matter. However I had several situation on the last tournament I played with finding one land to go off in time, so I will up the landcount to 20 again. I also tried out Flusterstorm main and cannot even remember I played it once.

    Quote Originally Posted by OrGy View Post
    I can't find the room for a second and third Defense Grid in the SB and strongly believing the 3 MD Pacts are a necessary evil.
    God, I would love to swap one of those for a MD Defense Grid as they often act on a similar level against countermagic, but Pacts not costing a single mana is enough to convince me to do otherwise.
    A Gitaxian Probe or two would be stellar in the MD as well but I don't want to lose any of the cantrips already in the main as they are crucial to the deck consistancy.
    Fitting all this in would be lovely. For sure I haven't had a flash of genius just yet.

  11. #31
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    Re: Omniclash and Omnimaniac

    @Nekrataal:

    About DH:
    DH gives your opponent the opportunity to play for free as well : I do not contest this point but I feel that the effect is not that symetrical as written on the card.
    For sure both player can now pitch to cast but, as far as the regular matchups are involved, only one of them can cast ETI or similar monstrosities with it.

    For sure, your opponent can now pitch his ponder to Flusterstorm you out, but those are corner case scenario.
    Most of the time, the cards you wouldn't want your opponent to play for free will be used in response to your casting of DH, not after.

    About the land count:
    After long testing sessions, lejay and jo_la_loose concluded 20 lands were mandatory.
    Our testing concluded otherwise.

    That being said, I think this particuliar perception is entirely linked to the DH matter :
    In the 4 DH version, DH being a solid option for taking off, you can devote at least one of your numerous cantrips effect in ensuring you'll be able to land drop every turn till turn 4.
    In the 3 DH version, you plan is to get your hand on S&T/DH + Omniscience as soon as possible, thus limiting your ability to cantrip into lands as well as combo components.

    In the latest, I firmly believe it is correct to play 20 lands (with 3 Sol Land), as I do believe it is quite reasonable to trim down to 19 (4 Sol Lands mandatory for DH hard cast) in the first one.

    About Defense Grid:
    Be sure you'll share your stroke of genius as soon as it strikes you. I'd pay for the idea. For real :)

    @beebles:
    I'll just recycle some of the thoughts of JM Accart in his primer last page and apply them to the Omnimaniac version:

    1 Slaughter Pact : answers hate bears for free. You can trickbind the trigger but generally combo when resolving it.
    Nothing more to say, officer.


    1 Sapphire Charm : With only 3 wishes the “cycle a redundant wish” clause is a bit less useful. That said it answers hate bears beautifully in the end of turn which can be quite useful against Thalia since it is possible every mana will count. It’s also a blue card for fow and dream halls and can cyle when sided in. I would not cut the slaughter pact, but if I wanted more hate bears slots I would increase the number of sapphire charms before the number of pacts.

    With 4 wishes, being able to recycle one of them eot can prove really useful. Being able to dodge a Mother protection on blue or black with the opposite answer is quite interesting as the game goes long.
    Last edited by OrGy; 05-21-2013 at 08:04 AM. Reason: It's Accart, not Accard, silly me :)

  12. #32
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    Re: Omniclash and Omnimaniac

    It's a good thing I couldn't answer for a few days since almost all the things I could say have been brought up by other people.

    To Catmint: I don't understand why you have so much trouble understanding the arguments and the logic that makes TT a very good match-up game one. If you still insist on me finding time for a 10 games session on cockatrice I can try for that, but I would rather have you do the testing alone or even just understand the logic of the arguments I gave, or even that I didn't give and are obvious.

    To OrGy : we didn't conclude 20 lands are mandatory. We concluded 20 lands was optimum and superior to 19 which is different. Of course the deck can function with 19 lands. However drawing supplementary lands when you have to hardcast dream halls or play around spell pierce isn't a bad thing, and having 17 blue sources (instead of 15 in yours) is very helpful avoiding mulligans.
    For the stroke of genius, watch how I arranged my decklist. You can send the check to JM Accart.

    One last thing, Frédéric/JoLaLose asked me to make an additional answer to that :
    Quote Originally Posted by NesretepNoj View Post
    Also claiming to be the creator of the deck seems kinda misplaced. The Dream Halls archetype which this deck is an evolution from stems from Jonas Harbili and in later years James Hesslip/Ari Lax. Not much has changed from that list if you swap Progenitus/Conflux for Omniscience/Enter the Infinite.
    The first week-end after the dream Halls unban, Frédéric Pérez played a deck based on it with both cunning wish and pact of negation. He placed 2nd/40-50 despite the limited testing. So I think we can safely consider that the deck is an evolution from that list, and that he is indeed the creator of this deck.

  13. #33

    Re: Omniclash and Omnimaniac

    No need to swing the banhammer. The deck doesn't break the format

    ******** UGr

    "the first tests against tempo were very simple. We crushed them preboard" ; "positive tempo thresh match-up all the way" ; "win about 2/3 of the time" --> ??!!

    - not a fast clock?! Double Delver, or Delver+Goyf or similar are not that slow considering all the Lightning Bolts and Chain Lightnings going straight to your face...
    - Wasteland doesn't hurt you as much, but Stifle to a fetchland is still a timewalk at least. If you wanted to use the Fetchland to shuffle away two bad cards from a brainstorm for example, it's even worse. Wasteland can be used to force you to fetch, if they have Stifle in hand.
    - They just have more counterspells than you (pre- and postboard). Even if Daze and Spell Pierce are no hard counters, playing around 1 Daze can set you back a turn and playing around Spell Pierce is probably way too slow. Postboard there are even REBs/Pyroblasts and Flusterstorms. Sure, Defense Grid is strong here, but they also have Ancient Grudges against it usually or just counter your Defense Grid. "defense grid idea ... proved to be all we need." I wouldn't be too sure about this.
    - The Krosan Grips in their sideboard can kill your plans, especially before EtI.
    - A boarded in Vendillion Clique can also be a pain with the right timing. Even, if they just put it into play via your Show and Tell, it can ruin your plan.
    - Surgical Extraction see below. (Even Thought Scour could be effective against you to extract something you really need like Omniscience for example)
    - Hardcasting a Dream Halls against Daze and Spell Pierce is very hard without enough counter backup.


    Maverick

    "When we tested against a maverick with tons of hate at the beginning we had a negative match-up post sb. But not only it's just post sb ... the deck is also almost not run anymore."

    Doesn't Maverick's maindeck consist of "hate" against you?

    - Gaddock Teeg: Your plan is Emrakul, but they run Knight of the Reliquary, so they have Karakas which you have to get rid of as well. So you need a Wish and Rushing River to bounce it, which is not always as easy as it sounds. Also, you have to get Emrakul first.
    - Knight of the Reliquary
    - Karakas
    - Thalia: "Emrakul is your main plan against Thalia decks"
    Show and Tell -> Emrakul = 4 mana, but hard to find a singelton Emrakul with your 2 mana cantrips. No extra turn here.
    Show and Tell -> Omniscience -> Cunning Wish -> Eladamri's Call -> Emrakul = 7 mana!
    Show and Tell -> Omniscience -> Cunning Wish -> Slaughter Pact = 6 mana, but you better have the other cards needed to win that turn also.
    Show and Tell -> Omniscience -> Emrakul = 5 mana but you still have to get your singelton Emrakul first.
    Cunning Wish -> Slaughter Pact/ Sapphire Charm = 5/6 mana same turn ... okay Wish in one turn and removal next turn are not that expensive, but then it better works, if it get's disrupted in any way...
    ... there are also some ways that are even more expensive, maybe I'm missing something here?? "Against Thalia decks Emrakul is the plan as you just need 1 mana to cast enter and then you can untap and play spells you want"
    - Mother of Runes: protects their Hatebears, so it's not that easy to get rid of them. Same thing with Sylvan Safekeeper and the like
    - Surgical Extraction: see below
    - Oblivion Ring: see below
    - Qasali Pridemage: can be effective if you only have Dream Halls in play
    - Choke!
    - Ethersworn Canonist: you need a wish and time/mana to get rid of it and combo

    Even if GW Maverick is played a bit less, there are also Punishing/Dark Maverick... with heavy Discard, Extirpate, Lilianas, Slaughter Games, Pyroblasts, Krosan Grips and whatever...

    Blade Control

    - Discard AND Counterspells (and Snapcaster)
    - Surgical/Extirpate (and Snapcaster )
    - O-ring/D-sphere
    - Meddling Mage
    - V.clique
    - Venser
    - Counterbalance/SDT
    everything effective. no need to explain every detail, I think.


    I don't want to write about every possible matchup here, just some others that seem questionable to be crushed all the time off the top of my head:

    BUG
    Sneak Attack
    Storm
    Dredge
    ...
    and you said yourself:
    "3 bad match-ups for the deck. Reanimator, Tin Fins and UR Omniscience mirror with flusterstorm (Testing against dredge was 50/50 post sb but it’s probably negative overall too)"
    so this doesn't seem to be true: " the deck has positive match-ups against almost the entire field." "the best deck" "As long as people are running sufficient grave hate, this deck is the best deck in the format (with not enough grave hate it's reanimator)"
    Seems like there are quite a few decks, that can beat this one.
    "People can adapt to this deck as I said in the format discussion section, but that will still result in an unhealthy metagame" Like we just saw, many decks don't even need to adapt that much. The metagame seems just fine at the moment.

    Some other cards, which are good against the deck:

    - "flusterstorm (our worst enemy)" as you said
    - Chalice @ 1 very hard to find a 3 card (or more) combo without any of the 12 cantrips. Getting rid of it?! Okay, 3 mana Cunning wish + 3 mana rushing river = 6 mana to bounce it until next turn.
    - Slaughter Games: on Omniscience kills the deck, right? No casting Emrakul, no infinite Release the Ants... just Show and Tell -> Emrakul directly, okay that would be possible, but even on other targets, Slaughter Games is very strong here, for example on Cunning Wish.
    - Surgical Extraction/Extirpate: on Show and Tell it makes the deck a lot slower. On Omniscience see above. On a milled or discarded Cunning wish also very usefull.
    - Oblivion Ring/Detention Sphere/Angel of Despair: can be answered with the instant speed RtA kill or Wish -> Trickbind. But EtI is sorcery speed and Wish -> trickbind means another card, that you need in your hand.
    - Liliana of the Veil: not answered by Leyline
    - Nevermore/Meddling Mage
    - Venser
    - Confusion in the Ranks
    - Thorn of Amethyst, Trinisphere
    - Counterbalance, SDT
    - Discard and Counterspells in general
    - probably quite a few I just forgot right now

    Sure, there are answeres to a lot of these things mentioned here in theory, but you don't allways have the right answer in hand.
    "counter cantrips which is pretty weak" -> not true, a well timed countered cantrip hurts a lot!

    "1 Trickbind : answers most post sb hate by cunning wishing it under omniscience." but then you need for example: Show and Tell, Omniscience, Enter the Infinite and Cunning Wish (like a 4 card "combo"?) not mentioning counterspells to backup.


    some other things:

    "This kill still doesn’t answers the emrakul’s decks" meant is Brain Freeze with 2 SDT. But Emrakul could still be extracted (Wish -> Surgical) when it hits the graveyard.
    "Dream Halls : Yes it costs 5 mana but this is also show and tell + omniscience in one card if you have enter the infinite" ...and a blue card, and if the opponent doesn't do anything (means you should have some counterspells also)
    "deal with a board with rushing riverx2 (kicked and maybe noxious revivaled)" why not, if have a Cunning Wish, 6 mana, 2 life and 2 lands in excess
    " if you draw one of those, FF becomes useless" meant is 2 cc spell or Intuition with Firemind's Foresight. If you draw the maindeck Intuition, there is still 3 cc Cunning Wish -> Intuition.


    Show and Tell doesn't need to be banned:
    Sure, it's a good card, but it doesn't dominate the format. Show and Tell decks are an important part of the format, that define Legacy and make this format (and it's metagame at the moment) as cool as it is. If it would be banned, Sneak and Show and UR Omniscience would also leave the format (less diversity, crying collectors and players ) and other decks would rise of course. Then, what would be the next thing to ban? LED? Or some staples that every deck plays and which define the format even more (ban brainstorm discussion and the like ). Or ban some storm things? Ban all the nice combos and play Modern2? Seriously, people need to stop crying because they don't like a specific card or decktype. And I think that's the real reason for some of your statements as you give a hint here: "Like many players I don't like show and tell decks because I see very dumb players winning far more than their fair share with it, and the deck is of no interest for someone wanting to play a game of thoughts. At the GP I told most of my opponents that the main reason I worked on it and played it was to get S&T banned." Seems like you want to depict yourself as the great savior of the format, but really only have a personal dislike against S&T. Just play the game. It is fun as it is right now. And fun is in the eye of the beholder.

    Some things that people allways forget when hating on Show and Tell is, that even if the S&T-decks are build around it, it's still ´symmetrical´ (opponent can just put answers or bombs into play theirselves - so it just can't be compared to a giant ritual), it is card disadvantage and vulnerable to every kind of hate and it requires a deck totally build around it with tutors and cantrips to find everything needed.
    Even if I don't play S&T myself and can understand your hate to some point, it would just be wrong to ban anything right now. Maybe Show and Tell is "dumb" for you; for others it's dumb to just turn creatures sideways or to wait 10min until opponent finally managed his storm count or to reanimate a giant creature in the first turns or to just throw burn spells to your face or whatever. As long as things don't get out of hand and we have top8s full of a specific deck over a specific time period, we should just let people enjoy their game and do it ourselves as well.

    To intensify it a little more If your deck crushes the format, why couldn't I find you in top 16 decklists? ah, I forgot: "I barely made day 2 after going 7-2 (first defeat round 6 against the undefeated ANT player that will get Dqed for stacking, and another very unlucky defeat to a friend playing Tempo thresh). Starting day 2 with a very very very close defeat versus counterbalance put me in a difficult bracket and I lose to team America and reanimator.
    Christoph Alsheimer aka Nemavera also played the same 75 I ran and fell short of one win from the top8 after going 8-1 day 1."


    I hope you don't feel offended and I don't just feed the trolls

    Carlos

  14. #34

  15. #35

    Re: Omniclash and Omnimaniac

    Quote Originally Posted by U-S-ho View Post
    - Thalia: "Emrakul is your main plan against Thalia decks"
    Show and Tell -> Emrakul = 4 mana, but hard to find a singelton Emrakul with your 2 mana cantrips. No extra turn here.
    Show and Tell -> Omniscience -> Cunning Wish -> Eladamri's Call -> Emrakul = 7 mana!
    Show and Tell -> Omniscience -> Cunning Wish -> Slaughter Pact = 6 mana, but you better have the other cards needed to win that turn also.
    Show and Tell -> Omniscience -> Emrakul = 5 mana

    Carlos

    i'm sure you're good at math but

    Show and Tell -> Omniscience -> Cunning Wish -> Eladamri's Call -> Emrakul = 7 mana! 6 mana emrakul is a creature

    Show and Tell -> Omniscience -> Emrakul = 5 mana 4 mana

    also omniscience emrakul doesn't care about karakas ^^

  16. #36
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    Re: Omniclash and Omnimaniac

    I've been playing sneak attack for a while now and I've recently turned to this thread cause it also plays show and tell and wanted some fresh ideas. My issue is the simple math of the it all. Sneak attack/SaT has more counterspells/backup than omni***, it doenst give the opponent advantage by playing dream halls, and it can secure a game just as easily.

    I've wanted to test with omni**** but logically i can't see how it could possibly be better. My sideboard for SA/SaT is very simple, and solves all of my problems, diverts for discard (combined with spell pierces and misdirections, and brainstorms main deck) makes discard a joke. Boseiju and through the breach for anything with counter spells. echoing truth for everything else.

    so, in short it just seems like omni**** is a slower less effective version of SA/SaT, and that if you were arguing for SaT to be banned it would be because of SA/SaT and not Omni****. Also, Omni*** decks have been around since before your version but have not been making top 8 near as consistently as SA/Sat.

    Please convince me to play Omni*** as it seems interesting to test and the artwork is cool. I've also been wanting a reason to pick up a set of foil cunning wish's
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  17. #37
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    Re: Omniclash and Omnimaniac

    I think all information was available, but I'll summarize for Sneak and Show players since that can be a lot to read :

    If you want to play a more brutal deck play Sneak&Show with petals and more sol lands.
    If your metagame isn't prepared for show and tell decks, play Sneak&Show.
    If you need to beat discard decks game one you'd better play sneak attack with spell pierces than omniscience with pacts.
    If you are bad and need a high variance deck to win play Sneak&Show.

    If you like consistency play Omniclash.
    If you want to reduce the level of possible interaction from the opponent to the maximum play Omniclash (wasteland, karakas, humility etc...)
    If you want to fight in a metagame expecting you (SB Oring, venser, confusion in the ranks, revoker etc...) play Omniclash.
    If you want to beat tempo threshold play Omniclash.
    If you like planifying things and ponder the odds, play Omniclash.
    If you want to ruin people's hope by trickbinding their hate before drawing your deck and killing with ants, play Omniclash.

  18. #38
    In response: Snapcaster Mage
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    Re: Omniclash and Omnimaniac

    Quote Originally Posted by Lejay View Post
    To catmint: I don't understand why you have so much trouble understanding the arguments and the logic that makes TT a very good match-up game one. If you still insist on me finding time for a 10 games session on cockatrice I can try for that, but I would rather have you do the testing alone or even just understand the logic of the arguments I gave, or even that I didn't give and are obvious.
    There is a difference of understanding your arguments and coming to the same conclusion. As you said most of them are obvious anyway and there is nothing new or mind blowing. E.g. we have different opinions on some stuff like the value of countering cantrips and how fast canadians clock is. I am also not claiming that I need to be right and with your results it would be just plain stupid to doubt that you have a solid canadian matchup. However I doubt the "crushing". Specifically I have reasonable doubts that:
    a) The avg. Omnisclash having 66% MU win vs. avg. Canadian preboard. I even doubt that you have 66% win preoboard versus avg. canadian and I gave you my thoughts on why you might have come to those results (again this is an open question for me - I am not saying it can't be this way).
    b) That the post-board result is positive enough (despite defense grid) for an overall positive matchup.

    Anyway the preboard candian matchup is not worth discussing anymore. People will test and time will tell.

    The other point where also many others have very reasonable doubt is that this is "the best deck" that will get "show banned" and bla bla. To me you did not follow-up on the issue that the negative Sneak and Combo matchup as well as the ability of decks to play discard AND countermagic (can't play leyline and defense grid right?) will stop this deck from taking over the format aka turning it to an unhealthy metagame as you claim.

    We agree on the comparison to sneak, but I seem to see the tradeoff of more consistency over raw power "fair" in the sense of it is not strictly better.

    As I said before, your conclusions and predictions seem to overestimate combo in general and I think you would become an overall better player if you would try to understand the logic of people contradicting with you in this area. I suppose you don't have a problem with people disagreeing with you right? If you were just fishing for compliments like provided by some fools in this thread instead of a real discussion on the issue, you would have been better of writing an article.
    Currently playing: Elves

  19. #39

    Re: Omniclash and Omnimaniac

    Boseiju and through the breach for anything with counter spells. echoing truth for everything else.
    Ughh Boesiju is really iffy against tempo decks, CIPT is really rough. Roll them dice and hope you don't get wastelanded!

  20. #40
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    Re: Omniclash and Omnimaniac

    Quote Originally Posted by beebles View Post
    Ughh Boesiju is really iffy against tempo decks, CIPT is really rough. Roll them dice and hope you don't get wastelanded!
    canadian thresh is the only thing that might even have wastelands and counterspells. if you are smart you can bait them with an ancient tomb or volcanic island if you really need a boseiju to stick. They wont anticipate you having a boseiju....and if they do then GL cause they are probably a good player. This isnt the worst situation tho.

    also, im certain that sneak attack is more consistent.

    SA and SaT = 8 enablers or 13.3% of deck
    Enabler targets (emrakul & griselbrand) = 8 or 13.3%

    SaT and Dream halls = 7 enablers or 11.6%
    Enabler targets (Omniscience & emrakul) = 5 or 8.3%

    not only do the cards needed for the combo make up a less % of the deck and would be harder to find you also have to find an Enter the infinite... Im not sure why you think omni*** is more consistent. You will find the combo pieces less of the time and since it runs fewer counterspells you will also successfully resolve the combo a smaller % of the time cause you lose more counterwars.
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