Given that there are also 2 Sneak&Show players in the top8 I am not sure how big the revolution will be. It seems sneak & show can prepare well for omniclash by playing red-blasts, pierces, through the breach in their 75 (not a real stretch - many lists do that already), so many sneak players will stick to their choice. What can omniclash do to improve the sneak matchup and also prepare for the mirror now that the deck will become more popular?
For sure the meta will prepare even more for show&tell.
Currently playing: Elves
REB, Pierces, and TTB are standard in the Sneak Show sideboards a this point; Leyline is too but unimportant in this matchup pairing. There are also some decks playing with Flusterstorm for added protection in place of Pierce.Originally Posted by catmint
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Since this deck is starting to get picked up by more players, I have a question coming from the other side of the table:
What are some good ways to beat this deck?
Are there particular cards that are effective in stopping Omni-deck from getting its combo off?
Suppose Meddling Mage is in play, what's the most effective card to name to not-lose?
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Lejay's list in primer at SCG Baltimore:
Started 4-0 then the wheels fell off to go 5-4 on the day. Beat Rw goblins, jund, oops all spells, TES, then lost to the deathblade sans stoneforge for goyf, then elves, then reanimator. Then rallied back to beat Sneak and Show, then lost the $50 to MUD. Lots of playmistakes on my part.
Deck is really dumb and strong. Not yet convinced starting on the draw blind is good, there are a ton of decks that have the speed to get there if you give them that turn, but there are certainly matchups that is fine and worth the card. Maindeck leyline won me a game and was stuck in my hand twice. Had I opened on a leyline in my games against deathblade ever it would have been easy.
Congrats to those who did significantly better than I did!
Matt Bevenour in real life
Enter the Infinite or Cunning Wish, followed by the one you didn't name. Wish is played slightly less than Enter the Infinite. It's better to name vs the version with no other win condition maindeck (even in g2) since Wish functions as both utility to remove Wish, their win condition, and half of their business. They typically bring in Wipe Away so them getting off Enter the Infinite is still game over, but it might slow them down more. Naming Wish is slightly worse vs the Release the Ants/Emrakul version as they don't always need to cat Wish and they tend to play one fewer copy. That said, they still use Wish as both win condition (via Call->Emrakul or Release the Ants) and utility removal so it has merit. Naming Enter the Infinite makes the build with Intuition/Impulse and sb FF actually remove the Mage to kill you. Unfortunately for you, it just means they need to find a Wish or bounce spell, but it's as good as you're going to get. All of this is complicaited by the fact that some builds with no Emrakul maindeck will sideboard in Emrakul then Wish->Call->Emrakul you when you think you are safe. Some builds without Intuition main will side it in. Everyone sides in bounce and removal for g2.
Naming Omniscience is never really a thing.
Naming Dream Halls might be a thing, but probably only after you have named Show and Tell.
Naming Show and Tell is a gambit that you can keep the deck with 6-10 basic islands off 5 Mana with either LD or a Clock or you can find a 2nd Mage for Dream Halls.
Flusterstorm is the best card against the deck. It makes Pacts dangerous and will force us to play Duress/Thoughtseize/Flusterstorms of our own.
Also for what it's worth, I've been experimenting with Talrand and Notion Thief as cards to bring in against blue or the mirror. Both are sick, although their strengths are slightly different. Something to keep in mind as a low-cost (in terms of slots) way of increasing percentage by attacking in new directions.
BZK! - Storm Boards
Been there, tried that, still casting Doomsday.
Drawing my deck for 0 mana since 2013.
I agree with pretty much all of this. I'd like to add- things that are also dropped off show and tell are annoying but certainly not impossible to beat (just requires another cunning wish in hand). REBs are also really good, but flusterstorm is still your best bet IMO.
Matt Bevenour in real life
Ha. What's wrong with how I play cards? Pre-disclaimer : I had a cold and hadn't slept the night before.
I was looking back through the SCGLive archive and could not find any footage of you guys on feature matches.Does anyone have a link to it or did they just cut out a bunch of feature matches?
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Burn
Manaless Dredge
Archives are not put up until Thursday on blip.tvI was looking back through the SCGLive archive and could not find any footage of you guys on feature matches.
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If you goto twitch.tv/scglive and go to past broadcasts I play at round 9 vs Todd Anderson and punt pretty hard in game 3 lolI was looking back through the SCGLive archive and could not find any footage of you guys on feature matches.
As for emidln's list which I enjoy playing:
- Sudden Shock on LabMan would be devastating (or Sudden Death).
- Preboard Meddling Mage on Cunning Wish would instantly win (if no Emrakul MD)
- Playing Death & Taxes can help if you can do: 1st Turn Vial, 2nd Turn Port an Island, 3rd Turn Thalia, 4th Turn Mangara-Karakas-Fcukery. There is no way to get out of that mess.
But other than that, discard-strategies and landdestruction is quite good (lost to Pox due to too many Sinkholes and Smallpoxes).
Team SPOD
<Der_imaginäre_Freund> props:
Adan for being the NQG God (drawer)
For guys which want to hate this deck down, because they want to beat it (or think its bad, like me, so that we are ensured, that it doesn't win anything anymore):
-Blue Decks can run Flusterstorms (+ Pierces for Halls).
-A big amount of Blasts/Flusters paired with Removal/Counters for Defense Grid (especially as I do in RUG Delver, boarding Snares and Grudges in against this Deck, so that Grid is irrelevant and Flusters + Blasts make it a highly favourable Matchup).
-Jund could run Nature's Claim (like 3-4) for getting rid of Leyline + discard/Blasts and some extraction effects. At best you have Chains of Mephistopheles, which has to be bounced with an extra Wish post Show and Tell into Omni, or kills this deck precombo.
-As some guys said before, DnT with many Thorns, Thalias, Canonists, and some O-Ringish effects (even if there is Wish as protection it should be a horror for them to answer Relic Warder or things like that through 1 or 2 Sphere effects).
-Run cards which win if Omni resolves a Show and Tell (e.g. Griselbrand).
-Green decks could play some cards which are good if they are put on the battlefield with an opponents show&tell, as a little backup (so that Omni has to have a Trickbind/search for them) for the plan ramping into turn 2 Choke.
-As I mentioned at the Jund-point: Black decks should just find a way to get rid of Leyline, then they will tear this deck in halves.
Btw I love this deck, because It's a good matchup for all my decks now. :) thx lejay
(this is not meaned to provoke anyone, I already played mono U Omni and liked it, but there are better decks in the format atm imho)
Last edited by Sedris; 06-04-2013 at 07:49 AM.
I agree, here. This deck is very powerful and pretty fun to play. Playing it over the course of a tournament was also more interesting that I thought it was going to be. And, the mirror is tons of fun. So, if the this deck did take over the meta for a bit, I wouldn't mind. That said, this deck is SO slow and is benefitting from people not being prepared for it. Generally, over the course of 10 rounds I maybe had 1 turn 2 kill and 3-4 turn 3 kills. Overall, I probably averaged winning on turn 5. The deck has almost no defensive capabilities outside of hiding behind leyline, which is fine in a format where everyone is playing mid-rangy discard decks and are still sideboarding guilded drakes and humility as S&T hate with have no enchantment removal outside of abrupt decay.
However, this deck is basically a bye for faster combo decks and it will not do nearly as well if people sideboard heavily for it / understand it well. I'd guess that at least half of my opponents at SCG Balt weren't sure how exactly my deck worked, including the scg folks at the top tables. Now that I know the deck as well as I do, I'm pretty close to undefeated playing miracles against it on modo. Playing this deck against Lejay and Jolalose on modo, I'd imagine that they do pretty well against it, also.
RUG will be able to beat this deck if it can concentrate its sideboard on doing so. And since this deck's best match ups are RUG's bad ones, I'd Imagine that any increase in this deck's popularity will be very good for RUG as it will decrease all these annoying abrupt decay decks. (note: this makes me happy as I love playing RUG).
Just to be clear, the arguments we're getting against this deck so far are that if you make it discard it's hand or counter every spell it casts, that it can lose?
Or that if you play multiple meddling mages chanting multiple combo pieces, it can lose?
Of that if you get a nut draw on the play with a fast combo deck, it can lose?
Or that if you're a discard deck and you find a way to remove it's leylines while also making them discard their hand and also applying enough pressure to kill them before they rebuild, it can lose?
And the fact that many sneak and show players didn't immediately drop the deck they spent thousands of dollars on to switch to this one means that this is an inferior deck.
Got it. Thanks for the balanced critiques everyone.
Im sure the most players are not aware of this tbh. I just wanted to tell everyone which specific cards they should include in their sideboard plans against omni (e.g. claim, chains, things which are not totally obvious or in common for folks).
And no, you don't need a nutsdraw. If you are playing Jund for example against lejays list, and he has a 7-card hand with Leyline, if you have a claim + 1 hymn, I think it provides time, to draw into the next lili, hymn, duress, seize, iok, pyro, confidant, bb11 for instance, to seal the game. This is because omni has only force (and many lists dont run fluster or side out fow here) to protect leyline. It is similar with Rug which only needs creature + anti grid/or opp has no grid + some counters, because pacts are incredible risky and force is incredible bad. And if they want to protect a Dream Halls kill, they won't be able to kill after a counterwar.
Omni plays 4 EtI 4 Omni (8 cards which are infinitely dead precombo and without Show and Tell) and 3-4 Dream Halls and 3-4 Cunning Wish, which are infinitely clunky. Its like playing a deck which acts like a overweight kid sometimes: You can't handle many things outside of your comboturn (which decks like ant/tes can do with discard and decks like sneak/ur omni can by playing more than 4 fow in their protection suite slots, and no pacts) and sometimes you don't have enough turns to cast all your cards (e.g. you have EtI, Wish, Wish, and want tutor 1 pact eot for not having a dead card in your comboturn, but you cant, because you were sculpting your hand and your board ((4-5 damn lands)) all day long and could not do anything else so that your wish is just a blue card (ok if you have brainstorm + fetch here, the whole thing changes, but even in this case you may draw another omni, eti or cards you dont want in pairs). and you die on 1-2 taxing counters because they will otherwhise race you.)
We can also reverse the whole thing and say, that yes, IF omni has 5-6 cards in his opener PLUS Leyline (=except), it could win against hymn, duress. Sometimes you just die on clock without disruption, sometimes 2 Tarmogoyfs are enough. I think its incredible bad to play a protection against discard, which turns into a dead card if you draw it regularly so that your 1-2 Leylines trade with their 1-3 discard. If decks like jund stop to play discard against combodecks in sb and use other angles to win against it, leyline gets worse and the whole deck + sb concept is rubbish.
My motion to write this, was to help "not so explored"-players, by tuning their sb against omni a bit and by saying, that omni can be hated down easier than other combodecks, because it becomes more inconsistent postboard than other combodecks do.
The thing is, that you dont have to discard EACH card, you just need to discard 1-2, then this deck has so much dead cards, that it breaks down already. Even countering EACH spell is bad, you just let omni do what it wants until it is going to kill you, then you counter their 2 spells, and they have to weigh if they can use their pact because they maybe die on it, or some other funny situations will happen.
And yeah, its obvious that each deck dies on any kind of nutsdraw later...
Not sure what level/amount of sarcasm is included here.
Are you contending that this deck is good and has very narrow ways to answer it?
Are you contending that those answers are wide enough to keep this deck in check?
For the most part, arguments made to not play this "the deck they spent thousands of dollars on to switch" is moot. Players will find a way to build the deck and shouldn't be considered a limitation.
Additionally, some of the reactions to Leyline apply to the Legacy strategy holistically instead of focusing on a specific deck with a generic anti-discard package. Should Jund be prepared to board into Krosan Grip/Nature's Claim to keep up its disruption against Leyline? This is a discussion outside the scope of the Omniclash thread.
As far as my testing against this deck has shown:
Discard is good disruption against the deck, but due to the high number of cantrips it may be fruitless.
Sometimes, the deck fails to chain together the spells and pieces it needs to win.
Clock + disruption (discard/counters) can beat this deck most of the time.
My experience with other S&T strategies have also shown me that these decks tend to need every single card in their hand to be useful. Liliana's +1 can sometimes be enough to buy a turn or two.
The deck is still new for most opponents, and that often plays a role in being able to beat the metagame. If no one can prepare for a deck doing powerful things, then it tends to run the tables.
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I would like to point out this deck has been a deck for about a month now. it also has 3 top 16s at SCGOpens. That has to be some sort of record or something. Look how long it took for DnT to make it to top 16!
Emptying the Warrens: So YOU don't have to!
What I'm saying is that all of these points are incredibly obvious and should not be used as a basis for evaluating the deck's long term viability. All of these situations can be inverted or applied to numerous other decks that have and continue to do well due to the fact that this is magic, not chess.
I made the comment on players switching because it was brought up earlier in the forum citing two Sneak and Show players in the t8 this past weekend as evidence that sneak and show will continue to be more popular.
No doubt, there is a high noise-to-signal ratio on most of the threads on this site. The better ideas float to the top. Try to contribute meaningfully and ignore the obvious/aside comments.
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I hear you. Just got a little frustrated!
so is the clash version better because it's harder to stop than lab maniac?
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