[Deck] ATS (Angry Tradewind Survival) - Former DTB

[BoTS]

Anyway, Humility is indeed a threat to ATS. But it is not as if the deck has no way to deal with it. Between 4x Force of Will in the main and X Naturalize/Seal of Cleansing in the board, the deck doesn't just roll over and die to the pesky enchantment.

[CavernNinja]

Yes, Humility is strong, and it is a very good answer to Survival based decks, however, every deck in a healthy has a foil. White-based control has always been good against creatures and this format happens to be full of them. But the existence of such a deck by no means results in the abolishment of ATS or any of the other Survival decks, it simply means that they need to keep it in mind for their side board.

[superfly]

Irrelevant post deleted. Stay on topic before we must restrict your use of the LMF. You set a new record - five different members reported or complained about your post!

Be sure to read the rules for the Legacy Metagame Forum and the general rules before posting again.

Peter_Rotten

[ottozoell]

I have been trying out a few new things, I really like one seal of cleansing main (instead of the lyrist, to combat Humility). I am still curious if Fire/Ice could be added to the mainboard instead of Mana Leak (2 forests change to taiga).

Are the extra counters necessary? In an aggro metagame would the fire/ice be good enough to warrant inclusion?

Let me know what you guys think.

Spelling and grammar cleaned up. Please read the rules of the LMF here before posting, specifically this rule:

3. Rules about grammar. We expect you to capitalize proper nouns and the personal pronoun "I." We expect you to use punctuation correctly and to avoid run-on sentences. A basic spelling ability is required. Our attitude is only slightly more forgiving towards members who speak English as a second language.

-braves54321



Edited By braves54321 on 1106104292

[Di]

I have been trying out a few new things, I really like one seal of cleansing main (instead of the lyrist, to combat Humility). I am still curious if Fire/Ice could be added to the mainboard instead of Mana Leak (2 forests change to taiga).

Are the extra counters necessary? In an aggro metagame would the fire/ice be good enough to warrant inclusion?

Let me know what you guys think.

First off, Kami of Ancient Law is run over Elvish Lyrist, because it's much better. Seal of Cleansing is a fine choice, but not worthy of a maindeck slot. If you aren't facing Humility, it could likely be a dead draw. I'd much rather have a creature in that slot that could be Survivaled away, or possibly use it as a blocker. I will agree that it's a strong sideboard choice, but I like Naturalize just as much thanks to its instant speed.

Why use Fire/Ice over creatures that kill things, while at the same time can be tutored for? If you're worried about aggro, run an additional Sharpshooter maindeck or something, or even Flametongue Kavu. I wouldn't recommend this either way, though, because Mana Leak is an extremely strong early play in matchups that will need a good early game, such as against RG Survival, the mirror, Belcher, or possibly something like control countering a turn 4-6 Wrath of God.

[BoTS]

I've been running Mana Leak's for a while now, but with the rise of decks containing Sundering Titan, Goblin Charbelcher, and other pesky cards with pesky triggered/activated abilities I have seriously considered putting the Stifles back in the deck. There is almost always Weldsur, U/R Wildfire, Solidarity, Rock, and Belcher present at my weekly 1.5 tournaments, making Stifle seem a lot stronger than it was in early September. They might not even need to go in the maindeck, but I really think that Stifle is gaining power due to the growing popularity of combo and other such decks.

[Anusien]

Anyone tested Submerge to see how it is versus ATS, either in the mirror or with one of the Blue-based control decks (WUBS, BBS) versus the green Survival variants, this one especially? ATS seems like in most cases it's a race to set up and win, especially in the mirror. Submerge feels like it would be good tempo disruption, costing them a Survival activation, especially in the first few turns. You'd bounce the creature in response to a Survival activation because it would get shuffled away, and they'd have to burn that Survival to dig it out. I know the deck is tight on slots, and I can't see what it would replace, but it feels like good tech.

[DavidHernandez]

Sorry to post a one-liner, but Di: the list for ATS (located on page 1) is from November. What does the new list look like? I'm concerned that the discussion may be focused on a list that is obsolete.

Dave.

[Di]

Heh, not exactly. In general, Survival decks are so tight that lists, at least the maindecks, don't often change. The only change I've been working on for the past couple months is trying to fit in Goblin Sharpshooter into the maindeck, but it's been extremely hard. I'm running 61 cards right now, because that's how things ended up after Enlightened Tutor was added into the deck. That's how difficult it is to pull cards out of the maindeck, having to go up to 61. I won't remove any blue cards from the maindeck because I refuse to go below 16(currently at 16). I finally came to the conclusion though that if I want to add Goblin Sharpshooter maindeck that I have three choices: The first being remove Uktabi Orangutan and Kami of Ancient Law and use Viridian Zealot. I hate Zealot in this deck, and decided I'm not going to invest a total of five mana(survival for it, then cast/sac it) to kill another Survival or something like that, because that's extremely slow for the deck and forces it to slow the deck at least a turn down. The other option was to remove something that is more geared towards aggro. The cards we have against aggro are Masticore, Spore Frog, and Wall of Roots, with in my list, currently runs three copies. There's no way in hell I'd ever remove the Core or Frog from the deck, so the best option for this choice would be removing the 3rd Wall of Roots. I've tested this, and I haven't seen a drastic change in the manabase, while I've seen a bit of an improvement in the aggro game, but I'm still skeptic about making this change permanent as I don't want the removal of a mana source to affect the manabase too drastically. The final choice the deck has is to just add Goblin Sharpshooter without removing anything, and going to 62 cards. This is the least appealing choice, for obvious reasons, but I've tested this and it hasn't made the deck really less consistant. More testing with both choice #2 and choice #3 will prove what I want to do.

However, either way, Sharpshooter will be moved to the maindeck, which means the sideboard will change yet again. Here's my current sideboard(most of it is the same, but a few slots have changed):

2 Null Rod
2 Choke
1 Back to Basics
2 Naturalize
1 Worship
1 Mana Breach(Solidarity)
1 Dawnstrider
1 Absolute Law
1 Dense Foliage
1 Spike Feeder
1 Caller of the Claw
1 Meta dependant slot(Compost, Serenity, Sacred Ground, another Sharpshooter, etc) I'm currently using Fecundity in this slot.

The only new cards here are Dawnstrider and Mana Breach, as well as the final slot which is whatever reflects your environment. Dawnstrider I've found to be insane, and have debated moving it to the maindeck over Spore Frog. It doesn't go to the graveyard, which means you save a handful of mana, and only requires you to pitch Squee every turn. It also avoids Tormod's Crypt, Ground Seal, and Honor the Fallen. The other new card, Mana Breach, was suprisingly brought to me by Mike Glow. He presented it to me when I ran Arcane Lab, and I've found this to be much better. Lately, the final slot for me has been Fecundity. I'm suprised I never added this before. I originally though Caller of the Claw was *the* anti-WoG solution, getting you a handful of men to smash with, but Fecundity just lets you draw almost a completely new hand so you don't have to start up with Genesis. The card is really meta dependant though, and once Amrod's comes around the corner again, it is likely to change into Compost or Serenity.

[BoTS]

I personally cut an E. Tutor for the maindeck Sharpshooter. I'm still not positive that this is the best solution, but In my Aggro/Survival heavy meta I feel that Goblin Sharpshooter is absolutely necessary in the deck.

[Di]

I personally cut an E. Tutor for the maindeck Sharpshooter. I'm still not positive that this is the best solution, but In my Aggro/Survival heavy meta I feel that Goblin Sharpshooter is absolutely necessary in the deck.

That was actually the first card I took out for Shooter before I debated everything else. However, I decided it was the wrong play, because that's one less Survival you have maindeck, in addition to decreasing your chances of getting the silver bullet enchantments.

[Bryant Cook]

I agree with the 62 card choice, seeing as I did it before you :p . I don't think dawnstrider should be maindecked, sporefrog doesn't die against a FTK, like dawnstrider. Also think about it your making genesis less useful, and ATS doesn't really have room for dead cards.

[Di]

I agree with the 62 card choice, seeing as I did it before you . I don't think dawnstrider should be maindecked, sporefrog doesn't die against a FTK, like dawnstrider. Also think about it your making genesis less useful, and ATS doesn't really have room for dead cards.

First off, when we discussed the 62 card deck, I informed you that I tried it as well :)

Second, you must be thinking that I'm siding Frog out for Dawnstrider, but in these cases they will both be in the deck. Genesis doesn't rely on Spore Frog for use, it just so happens that Frog is interacting with it the most out of creatures in the deck. Generally in those matchups it's only used for Frog, and it can slow you down a bit, but in these scenarios using Dawnstrider saves mana to cast business spells. Also, FTK would only be a real bother for Dawnstrider if I can't give it haste. Otherwise, I'll end up paying six mana the following turn if I want it back, and then a single mana from then on.

I then just realized that you must also be thinking Dawnstrider is in the maindeck, which it isn't.

[Bryant Cook]

Dawnstrider I've found to be insane, and have debated moving it to the maindeck over Spore Frog.

That's what I was referring to... I wasn't trying to say genesis is dead without frog even though it looked like it. I was just trying to say it's taking away another purpose or use of genesis.

[Efreet]

i see this topic is static, so i have a question for those that really play the deck: in a metagame with lots of landstill or "keeper-style" deck how can this deck win? this is my case in italy and we can't go over the wall of counter, and even if we do they have always a seal of cleansing or a disenchant.. this is my problem, i hope in your help :)

[DaveOath]

Kira, Great Glass-Spinner could replace the Dense Foliage in the sideboard.

It's "fetchable" with the Survival of the Fittest, it protect your creature from spell AND abilities.

The effect is also asymmetrical, your opponent does not benefit from it.

[Di]

Kira, Great Glass-Spinner could replace the Dense Foliage in the sideboard.

It's "fetchable" with the Survival of the Fittest, it protect your creature from spell AND abilities.

The effect is also asymmetrical, your opponent does not benefit from it.

I've done a lot of work with Kira, and it's a fine choice, but it's not going to be added to this deck for a couple reasons. The first being it's UU in the casting cost. That can be really annoying to do in situations that you need it. I'm not saying getting UU is necessarily difficult, it's just a stretch to cast over Dense Foliage. The second reason is that Kira only affects creatures you control. This means the opponents can feel free to play all the Rancor, Berserks, and whatever else the opponent might play on their own creatures as they want. Although that doesn't apply to many decks, the most common being Garv.deq, it's still a threat, and Dense Foliage stops it cold. Plus, remember Foliage can still be grabbed by Enlightened Tutor, so it's not a random card you have to draw.

Besides, it's not like the opponent was benefitting from Dense Foliage to begin with, because they can still be targetted by abilities.

[Efreet]

why doesn't anybody gave me an answer to my question? [glare]

Before posting in the LMF, read the rules. We want this forum, you know, "good", so do what you can to make your posts worthwhile, not retarded. Thanks. -Di

[CavernNinja]

The answer is that ATS has a very hard time against control, preboard you have to through must counters or atleast cards that look like must-counters at your opponent until you can get a Survival in play. Once you have a Survival make sure that your first tutor goes for Genesis then for E.Witness for protection and you should be able to win. Second game you bring in Choke so that you have more must-counters and a better chance of getting your stuff to resolve.

[Ray D 3]

I think Mana Leak is a tad weak in this deck, and I believe there is a better choice in Annul.

It stops:

Humility
Survival of the Fittest
Pernicious Deed
Nevinyrral's Disk
Vedalken Shackles
Goblin Charbelcher
etc.

It costs only 1 mana, and has a use against just about every deck in the metagame.

...just my 2 cents.