Annul has a use against a decent portion of the metagame, but stronger than Mana Leak? Hell no. Annul is extremely limited to what it counters. It doesn't fight in counter wars, won't counter Wrath of God or any creature that threatens you, whether it be Goblin Sharpshooter, Exalted Angel, Psychatog. It won't stop Transmute Artifact, Fact or Fiction, Naturalize, Burning Wish, or any other good card in this format, right?
I've made my point.
Wow was that a bold statement.Originally Posted by Diablos
It may not stop the 'good' cards, but it does exactly what the original stifles did. It stops cards that are problematic, and it does so at the cost of one single mana, which is pretty damn good in such a mana hungry deck. Paying 1 more than you have to can set you back a full turn.
Btw, your statement implies that SotF, Humility, Pernicious Deed, etc. are not good cards.
"Whatever happens, happens."
Ok, lemme rephrase that. "Any other good non-artifact/enchantment card." Happy? Not every deck plays cards such as Humility and Pernicious Deed. In fact, there aren't many at all, just Hulk, the Rock, Enchantress, Mono-white(which hasn't ever seen play afaik) and in some builds of U/W. Those aren't the most popular of deck choices, are they?
Stifles maindeck inclusion was solely based on Goblin Recruiter. It gave the deck fits, and Stifle stopped them. Stifle was also replaced by Mana Leak after the shift not only because Recruiter was banned, but because Leak is a lot better against everything else. If you look in the last ATS thread before we started a new one, you'd notice I gave Annul a chance before I went to Leak, but then came to the conclusion that Leak is strong against the entire field, and then also deals with everything Annul would.
I understand what you are saying, but there are only two decks in the current LMF that annul is useless against (U/G Madness and Solidarity), and it is a better solution to this deck's worst enemy (Humility) than Mana Leak is. The fact that it costs 1 mana and stops a large number of problematic cards w/o giving the opponent the option of paying 3, is what makes it good imo.
True Mana Leak hits alot of things that annul doesn't, but this deck doesn't need such a reactive card, and I can't see why it is in the deck to begin with. You've been thinking of bringing the deck to 62 cards, so why not cut the Leaks all together, and I do realize that would drop the blue card count to 14, but Dragon seemed to use it just fine with only 14 blue cards in old 1.5. I also realize that Dragon only needed to use it once, but ATS shouldn't need to use it too many times either, and worse comes to worse it can just fetch a blue creature it doesn't need and pitch it.
"Whatever happens, happens."
Wow i pretty much read the first page only, but lets clear something up. Mana Leak > Miscalculate. 4 Brainstorm and 4 Trops. > Sylvan Library. You must have 4 trops, end of story. By the way... WW with armegeddon can smack this deck sometimes. There are other decks that are hard to get around, and 1 card ive been thinkin about play testing is 1 Meddling Mage... if you name swords to plowshares or armegeddon you can beat WW. name high tide agaist reset.dec (if you have to play against this deck.. they get bounce spells and 1 arcance lab is enough in the beginning but they will bounce it.. get em both out and you win pretty much). There are so many possibilities and you can bounce it to your hand with tradewind rider late game just to make sure you can win. Another thing i like, but i definitely do not think should go in the deck unless you are missing cards is living wish. i think thats all i have for now, my screen name is vindicate347 on AIM if anyone wants to talk bout this deck n such. oh, and im leavin with this simley cuz it makes me laugh :blues:
do run leaks, imo, btw. Answer to humility: monk realist... although i run kami of ancient law, no one here that i have seen plays humility. if its that big of a problem, run leaks and realist. Trust me.. you dont really want annuls, there is better stuff, which makes ATS what it is really made to do: win.
@ oath boy:
I really don't know how you intend to kill a Humility with a Realist or even a Kami considering they both don't have any abilities. Actually IMO Annul would be the best answer for Humility, but I'm not sure its the best card for this deck, and I really wouldn't know I have done 0 testing with Annul.
So as of right now, Oath Boy needs to think before he talks and Mana Leak > Annul.
Peace yall,
Roop
Annul won't stop a Wrath of God or be able to force through an important creature or survival that needs to hit play if playing against control. I'm sure that the one extra mana on mana leak is worth it to be able to stop a lot more gamebreaking spells from being played.
EDIT: Wow, I take a while to post and five people reply to the post before I get to and make me look like a silly person because I'm restating whats already been said. Sheesh.
Yeah, let's see, considering I was the one saying Mana Leak WAS better and that Annul was worse.. I don't know how that came across, but Mana Leak is so 10x better... also.. realistic.. hm, yeah, let's see... I think that 1) I pointed out if Humility is famous to see play in your parts, then do not play Kami, but play Realist, because Realist does kill Humility... thats why I say kill it with Realist, and you have Mana Leak and FoW backup... but yeah I'm pretty sure Realist owns Humility in the face because comes into play abilities are applied to the stack before Humility I believe...
And just to restate it, AGAIN for reference: Mana Leak > Miscalculation and Mana Leak > Annul... always
Text cleaned, and that took a while.
Please read the LMF posting policy before posting in here, because we don't want grammatical disasters in this forum. -Di
Oh boy, Humility headaches again. From Crystal Keep
The final word is Humility > every creature. Even Monk Realist"ic."Does remove abilities from a creature entering play before any "comes into play" abilities can trigger. [D'Angelo 1999/06/01]
If Humility is that big of a deal in your meta, you can always try to find room for a maindeck Seal of Cleansing, although I wouldn't recommend this unless something like 35-40% or more of the field is packing maindeck Humility as it requires you to cut a utility creature.
Also, trust me from personal experience when I say that Mana Leak is golden. Sure, Annul hits Humility, Survival, and Deed for one less, but the one extra mana to say no to Goblin Sharpshooter, WoG, and other such problematic cards that own your team is well worth the generic mana.
Edited By BoTS on 1109223834
Proud member of Team Unicorn (unicorns are fucking rad.)
Fuck Voldermort. Nobody kills unicorns, except other, bigger unicorns.
You haven't heard the last of the Scrabs.
Whats this deck do against WW and other beatdown decks such as stompy... im arguing with a guy this deck can take em on, especially stompy because stompy has nothing to do to stop spore frog at end of turn, that im aware of. WW has swords and armageddon... lol blues guy is funny :blues:
and what do people think of running 1 meddling mage?
and is 18 land even enough... thats less than 2 lands per draw even if you get birds and such.. always think that they will be able to destroy it
WW has a slow as ass clock, and ATS has a Rofellos-Ranger charged Masticore to sweep the board of weenies. As for Armageddon, ATS runs 7 Counterspells, 1 of which can be searched for. Plus if you really fear the geddon you have Sacred Ground out of the board.
Ok, and what about phyrexian furnace and tormods crypt?
Ok, this is the second time I've said this. Read the LMF rules before posting in them. We don't need our time being wasted with posts like this. Warned. -Di
Who warned me and how do i send a PM to them
I read the rules and I hope that my post does not violate them (and my english is not too bad).
My current version (evolved in a meta i consider pretty much normal with a little lack of combo) in difference to Diablos' MD (page #1):
MD
-Elvish Lyrist +Monk Realist
-Forest +Goblin Sharpshooter
I very much liked the Realist despite his need for W, mainly cause he does not need Haste. I found myself often left without the Taiga and an urgend need to destroy a Parallax Wave or Pernicious Deed (or odd things like Serenity) this turn and not the next one. On the other hand I never wanted to use the Realist and didn't have the white mana.
The reasons to add the Sharpshooter to the MD are obvious and i liked none of the three options. So i sat for hours calculating possibilities of hand sizes, enemy destroying first land, Ranger, Bird, enemy having Stifle, me drawing a land as 8th or 9th card, when the first land is a fetchland and i used it, if it is not or i did not use it yet...and finally I got a headdache and simply played with one land less than before. And it worked fine for me.
I felt that hands with three or four lands were ruining my games as often as bad hands with one land. Actually i don't want that Forest back at all.
I don't expect you to be interested in this but i wanted to show some effort cause the actual reason for my post is: I need advice.
I have to play a tournament in an weird extreme aggrometa soon. I expect lots of Sui, Zoo, Sligh, Pox, Rock, random burn and random red, green or black beats with a huge ammount of targeted creature removal and annoying things like Cursed Scroll, SoFI, maindeck Contagion etc.
1. Is it possible (and profitable) to run Misdirection in the place of ManaLeak/Annul/Stifle?
Of course i've tested it, but maybe due to my lack of self-esteem i cannot reach a decision.
2. I would like to use a SB like:
<span style='font-size:8pt;line-height:100%'>2 Null Rod
2 Naturalize
1 Choke
1 Back to Basics
1 Worship
1 Absolute Law
1 Dense Foliage
1 Dawnstrider
1 Spike Feeder
1 Caller of the Claw
1 Meddling Mage
1 True Believer
1 Gorilla Shaman</span>
The Believer is the only thing (except more Naturalize against Planar Void) i could think of to improve my matchup against Sui and similar. And i used him against some other decks too. Obviously it is no good replacement for Mana Breach and the double W is difficult to handle...
The Monkey is a paranoid choice against Cursed Scrolls which often ruin me when they show up repeatedly in the early game.
The Meddling Mage has turned out to be so very useful in various matchups that i consider to cut another forest to fit him in the MD and add Propaganda to the SB again.
I tested all this too, but reached a state of being not able to decide anything at all. I would like to hear the thoughts of some experienced players about this very much.
I hope all this is not considered totally useless by you and the administration.
Edit:
The mentioned tournament was much less filled with aggro than i expected.
I had gone totally nuts and cut a second forest to fit Meddling Mage in the MD. And...well...it worked. I never had severe problems with dropping enough lands. I had to use perhabs one single additional mulligan the whole day, but made use of Sharpshooter and Meddling Mage in first games a lot.
Team Weathermen
we shake our heads as your tables turn - they'll always turn - and you will never burn
that's the real promise: you'll never burn
you get the lies - we get the fire
I like this deck, I think that you could use Kami of Ancient Law better than Realist though. Also, I changed the sideboard around, and I definitely think the deck needs Arcane Laboratory in the sideboard, as it shuts down Solidarity. Also, naming cards such as high tide and swords to plowshars can totally shut a deck down. You don't need annuls or misdirections, as they aren't as synergistic in this deck. Mana Leak is great, as so is Force of Will. Stifle, meh, I think goes in SB if you can fit it, otherwise, I won't run it. Hope this helps.
Quoted from the ATS primer:
I think this can also be applied to Uktabi Orangutan and Scavenger Folk. What's your reason to run Uktabi over Scavenger Folk or Elvish Scrapper?Monk Realist: Simply put though, I feel this is inferior to Elvish Lyrist. The only benefit this has over Lyrist is it has synergy with Tradewind Rider, and it doesn’t require an activation cost. However, there’s a good chance Anger will be in the graveyard when playing, so the activation cost isn’t much of a bother.
When that was written, Dragon was one of the tier 1 decks, so the deck was much better off running Lyrist in chance of playing it turn 1 to stop the combo. Incidentally, I forgot to mention that in the primer.Quoted from the ATS primer:
Quote
Monk Realist: Simply put though, I feel this is inferior to Elvish Lyrist. The only benefit this has over Lyrist is it has synergy with Tradewind Rider, and it doesn’t require an activation cost. However, there’s a good chance Anger will be in the graveyard when playing, so the activation cost isn’t much of a bother.
I think this can also be applied to Uktabi Orangutan and Scavenger Folk. What's your reason to run Uktabi over Scavenger Folk or Elvish Scrapper?
Otherwise Realist is a fine choice, but still inferior to Kami of Ancient Law. Scavenger Folk works fine as well, I suppose though the artifact situation is a bit different, because of cards like Shackles and Disk and whatnot, or even Tormod's Crypt, when having Anger in the graveyard might not be there, so the immidiate killing of the artifact is necessary.
I prefer to use the sex monkeys as it can kill the Cursed Totem that can be so very problematic. Sure the ability to choke off their artifact during the other player's turn is a valuable asset,but an monkey can get one of the deck's worst hosers. Not to mention he stays in play so you can use him with the tradewind rider.
Team Meandeck
Ok, so I have been toying with this deck lately *bad sign* and I have radically changed it. I'm not yet sure whether it was for better or for worse, but I can give reasons for my card choices.
My ATS
//Lands (20)
4 Windswept Heath
3 Wooded Foothills
4 Tropical Island
2 Taiga
7 Forest
//Core Cards (25)
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Tradewind Rider
2 Quirion Ranger
3 Eternal Witness
//One of's (15)
1 Seedborn Muse
1 Gilded Drake
1 Mystic Snake
1 Squee, Goblin Nabob
1 Anger
1 Viridian Zealot
1 Flametongue Kavu
1 Mogg Fanatic
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Wood Elves
1 Wall of Roots
1 Rofellos, Llanowar Emissary
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Clone
1 Spike Feeder
I guess I'll just address the changes one by one...
I)
No E tutor- many reasons here:
1. It's not blue, doesn't pitch to FOW
2. It's not a creature, doesn't pitch to Survival
3. It's completely dead once you have a Survival on the board
4. It makes you splash a fourth color all on it's own
5. It's bad card advantage
6. You won't always be able to play it
mainly the fact is, yes, survival is essential to this deck, and when you get one out, and you have the right amount of resources, you will beat basically every single deck. IMO though, if you are using e tutor to get it into play, you are only winning if your opponent's deck:
A) is slow as ass
and
B) has no disruption
and no good deck in the format has both of those characteristics. So therefore tutor is bad against every good dec in the format.
II)
one extra fetch/two more lands/2nd taiga-
I added an extra fetch for extra mana stability, as well as extra synnergy with witness/brainstorm/anger.
I decided to play two more lands because I just found that mana critters were not enough. I needed more lands out and I would have given up a mana critter for a land any day. The fact is, survival works best when you have many lands. Rofellos works better with more lands out as well obviously.
I just like having a second taiga in case the first one gets wasted or something. It's also good because I now play 3 castable red cards.
III) random stupid card decisions-
3rd witness- <3 this card, helps almost any matchup vs. disruption and combos with many cards (tradewind/clone/itself).
Zealot- I have always found more useful than Sex monkey and Lyrist, just IMO.
FTK- is a good creature to draw without survival, and can take out large creatures that bother you, combos nicely with tradewind/clone.
Fanatic- good in the mirror for stuff like rofellos, also compliments sharpshooter nicely. Another card that is never bad to draw without survival.
Sharpshooter- I can't ever see myself playing survival without this guy, is HUGE in the mirror, and does stuff against many many decks.
Wood Elves- awesome for getting taiga/a third land/trop maybe?
Fyndhorn Elves- fifth first-turn, one-mana producer
Clone- I like him better than masticore in the "fix random problems" slot, he also pitches to FOW I guess.
Spike Feeder- I find life gain to be crucial in survival, that's just my opinion.
IV) no genesis- Two words: too slow.
....
witness can do his job fine, for one mana less because you don't have to pitch him, and witness can also be used during the main phase. Finally, witness >>>> genesis when there is no survival on the board.
Well, I'm really interested in seeing what you think!
whether you think I am completely retarded or that I might have actually done something right.
Cutting Enlightened Tutor is something that you can do, but for god sakes dont change the toolbox. Play Sylvan library or something, but dont play bad cards like fanatic and clone. Just because they are good without survival doesn't mean that you should run them. FTK I can understand, but to me its just overkill. Gilded drake, Masticore, and Sharpshooter are enough removal for me. What does he do that they dont? Are the rare surcumstances where FTK would be better warrant his inclusion? I'm leaning towards no.
Genesis is one of the best creatures in this deck. He wins games...Many, Many games. He stays. He can be GG against control game 1. I would never cut him.
I wouldn't add 2 more lands solely on the fact that I have never been unhappy with the land count after playing the deck for about a year. 18 lands has always seemed to fit perfectly with the accelerants and put those 4 ideal forests on the board, however, In your build you may need 20 lands. It does look quite different.
I have been very happy with the enlightened tutors and completely disagree with them being cut, but if you are going to cut them please play sylvan library at the very least.
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