[Primer] Elves!

[square_two]

For what it's worth i decided to run a singleton Cavern of Souls in yesterday's Daily and two 8mans. Card was absolute nuts. I missed Pendelhaven especially against Miracles and Dredge, but Cavern single handedly took over some games and even got Paul Cheon on the verge of benching all his Counterbalances.

I assume you'd rather have a Cavern show up against Miracles than a Pendelhaven, though. Unless I'm just misunderstanding how important Pendelhaven can be.

[MD.Ghost]

@Shaman of the Pack: As i already mentioned, i like her as another win con. She won me one game (paired with choke and our beloved insect) against UR Standstill - because i couldn't attack against a wall of mishras (his last defense line, thanks to choke). I also enabled the combo against one of my latest cockatrice opponents, i play, bounce and play Shaman in a single turn for the win.

She simply adds another line of play (which works well with the rest of the team) if you face containment priest, cage or much more rare stuff like moat/bridge etc. - the body is also ok enough, survives -1/-1 (or damage) stuff and you can attack in priest/canonist/static caster if needed. I don't know if i like her more than another 1off win con. like Packmaster or Ruric yet. I am not a friend of the common "double hoof plan", because drawing the big ones are most of the time a dead card (if your opponent are no goldfish). I even saw Julian streamed games lately and drew both hoofs, for me it feels like the old "with or without progenitus" discusion.

@Cavern of Souls: We discussed Cavern already with the "Drain Elves" brews. I liked a pair of Cavern with my latest drain build (no Natural Order etc.), the build (invented from Sebastian Bartl) aimed for a better Miracle Matchup and Cavern is a good idea if you wan't to beat the matchup. I even managed to hardcast a Hoof with Cavern which was very funny! I played one tournament (6 rounds, ended 6/40 players) with the Drain brew, the Caverns won some games, but i also lost one because i couldn't cast Discard-Spells with it. So i agree with Julian, that it can backfire if you try too many Caverns.

My latest successful build (see last page/more common with Natural Order etc.) also had the 1 Shaman of the pack and some more Elves, but it was a last minute decision so i had the good and old Pendelhaven instead of Cavern (don't do too many experiments at once). Pendelhaven gave me a lot of wins over the last years and is really good. Now with 1off Shaman, Dwynen's Elite and Elvish Mystic i will give Cavern a try, especially with Shaman it should work well enough.

[shopshopshop]

Unless you are replacing a Bayou with Cavern of Souls, how is it relevant that it can't cast discard spells? Typically it replaces a Pendelhaven or 3rd Forest, neither of which can cast Discard.

[MD.Ghost]

Unless you are replacing a Bayou with Cavern of Souls, how is it relevant that it can't cast discard spells? Typically it replaces a Pendelhaven or 3rd Forest, neither of which can cast Discard.

Sebastian Bartl run 3 Cavern and it was also my first pick, but you can only run a minimal amount of fetches, or a build with more lands or cut the other stuff (bayou, forest, cradle) etc. - i quickly moved back to a pair of caverns in a "drain-glimpse" oriented build.

Now - back with the more common build (4 Glimpse and 3 NOs) i try the cut of the 2nd Arbor in favour of a "Manadork" and all the little adjustments (step by step), with 1 Manadork, 1 Elite, 1 Shaman (and WRP/Sideboard) it seems logically to test the swap from Pendelhaven to Cavern.

The latest build look like this:

1 Cavern of Souls
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
2 Bayou
4 Gaea's Cradle
2 Windswept Heath
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Misty Rainforest

4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Heritage Druid
3 Nettle Sentinel
2 Birchlore Rangers
1 Dwynen's Elite
1 Elvish Mystic
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Shaman of the Pack
1 Craterhoof Behemoth

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 2 Choke
SB: 2 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Wren's Run Packmaster

In the case of Pendelhaven vs Cavern: it is only a single slot and every game you test the change you can ask yourself which land would be the best.

[Julian23]

Really had to post this. So who said T1 Chalice, T2 Golem would be good against Elves? I'm still undefeated against that opening :P

Check this out: http://i.imgur.com/JrKdg7S.jpg

Winning on Turn7 without ever casting a 1 mana spell or resolving GSZ or NO. Oh, and he also had Engineered Plague at some point.

Elves, bitches!

[Valentino_Marino]

Really had to post this. So who said T1 Chalice, T2 Golem would be good against Elves? I'm still undefeated against that opening :P

Check this out: http://i.imgur.com/JrKdg7S.jpg

Winning on Turn7 without ever casting a 1 mana spell or resolving GSZ or NO. Oh, and he also had Engineered Plague at some point.

Elves, bitches!

Nice play!

How does your list look like there? I can see a Savannah. Very interessting. How does it sounds to have access to a little toolbox of lands with one Crop Rotation? One Cavern and the Haven?! I thought about that very often. Do you ever miss Ruric in the Main? I absolutely can't Ban him so I'm playing 61 Cards.

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Really had to post this. So who said T1 Chalice, T2 Golem would be good against Elves? I'm still undefeated against that opening :P

Check this out: http://i.imgur.com/JrKdg7S.jpg

Winning on Turn7 without ever casting a 1 mana spell or resolving GSZ or NO. Oh, and he also had Engineered Plague at some point.

Elves, bitches!

They may as well concede when you sit down across the table.

[ironclad8690]

Hey Guys,

I have purchased the necessary cards for this deck on magic online, and I was hoping I could get some help as to what a "stock" list would look like. I copied one of Julian's most recent lists (with the Sylvan Library and the Pendelhaven), but I feel like I need some more experience before I can determine why those cards are better than the obvious 4th Heritage Druid or 2nd Verdant Catacombs.

What list would you recommend for a beginner to just get the hang of comboing out before adding spice?

[Zombie]

Hey Guys,

I have purchased the necessary cards for this deck on magic online, and I was hoping I could get some help as to what a "stock" list would look like. I copied one of Julian's most recent lists (with the Sylvan Library and the Pendelhaven), but I feel like I need some more experience before I can determine why those cards are better than the obvious 4th Heritage Druid or 2nd Verdant Catacombs.

What list would you recommend for a beginner to just get the hang of comboing out before adding spice?

Julian's list is pretty much as stock as it gets. The main differences in other stock lists might be:
No Library, fourth Natural Order
Only three Nettle Sentinels, maindeck Scavenging Ooze (Ooze may also be included as the 61st card).

That's pretty much it. The list is really thoroughly tuned and you should play it a lot to learn its ins and outs and then deviate when you have understanding. It's a strong, consistent build.

There's also the option of 4 NO, 4 Nettles, 4th Heritage as either the 61st card or replacing the Reclamation Sage if you really want to gun for the combo angle, but I'd just play with Julian's build.

[ironclad8690]

Cool, thanks for the tips!

I have already claimed my first victim, a Miracles player, and a very close loss to a BUG delver player (1 more point of damage would have done it), but I have never felt out of the game. It feels like there is always something that you can do differently, and that is a good feeling to have when playing a deck.

[Julian23]

Posted my final thoughts on Elves before #GPSeaTac on itsJulian.com.

[dte]

you said that this sb is dedicated to storm and miracle, and it contains 2 surgical extraction. Do you think this card is of high value in both MUs?

[AznSeal]

Not sure if I was scummy or resourceful but I thought I share just in case someone sees this situation at GP SeaTac. This happened last night.

Opponent is on miracles. He goes turn 1: Scalding Tarns, pass.
Me: Fetch, Bayou, then I go "JUDGE!!" so a judge comes and I ask "What's the name of that artifact that lets you look at 3 cards, something top?" and the Judge goes "Sensei's Diving Top" so I go ok thanks and then I proceed to tap my Bayou and put Pithing Needle on the stack.
Opponent says "resolves" and I name Scalding Tarns. He also had another tarn in hand, and those were his only 2 lands.

he was quite salty

[danyul]

Posted my final thoughts on Elves before #GPSeaTac on itsJulian.com.

Thanks for this, Cap'n!

Not sure if I was scummy or resourceful but I thought I share just in case someone sees this situation at GP SeaTac. This happened last night.

Opponent is on miracles. He goes turn 1: Scalding Tarns, pass.
Me: Fetch, Bayou, then I go "JUDGE!!" so a judge comes and I ask "What's the name of that artifact that lets you look at 3 cards, something top?" and the Judge goes "Sensei's Diving Top" so I go ok thanks and then I proceed to tap my Bayou and put Pithing Needle on the stack.
Opponent says "resolves" and I name Scalding Tarns. He also had another tarn in hand, and those were his only 2 lands.

he was quite salty

I'd call that a Jedi Mind Trick. I wouldn't necessarily call it scummy. Maybe that makes me scummy? Either way, it makes for a hilarious story.

[Zombie]

Resleeved the deck to celebrate DTT being gone. So smooth. <3

Got a stone cold retarded goldfish.

Hand: 2 Nettles, Birchlore, Heritage, Quirion, NO, Regal
Okay, it's greedy as shit but keep. Let's pretend we're on the draw. First draw is a fetch.
Forest, Nettle, go.
T2 draw is a Library because why not.
Birchlore, Nettle, Heritage, Quirion, have 5 mana. Want to do broken but ca-- oh, hey. Sylvan Library is actually a ritual. Hooray for brokenness. Activate Quirion, untap her. Play Forest, 6. Library, 7. Draw 6 with an active mana engine? Yes please.


...proceed to draw the worst nuts ever. GSZ, GSZ, fetch, Cradle, Visionary, NO. No kill, only got a stupid gamestate.

[goggs]

Thursday night legacy at Mox Boarding house had a turnout of 118!! I beat omni tell, shardless, and mud, losing game three to another shardless on a greedy (but awesome) keep. I met at least one other forum goer, but I can't remember your name. Hi! I was jamming Julian's list with -1 Abrupt Decay +1 Progenitus, and it made me smile when I show and telled it in. Who knows if it's good. Tons of shardless, many miracles, lots of storm. Good luck tomorrow to everyone!

[haganbmj]

Played Elves today in the SCG IQ in Philadelphia. ~120 people, 7 rounds.

Spells	Lands	Sideboard
1 Fyndhorn Elves 2 Birchlore Rangers 3 Heritage Druid 3 Nettle Sentinel 4 Deathrite Shaman 4 Quirion Ranger 4 Wirewood Symbiote 4 Elvish visionary 1 Reclamation Sage 1 Wren's Run Packmaster 2 Craterhoof Behemoth 4 Glimpse of Nature 4 Green Sun's Zenith 3 Natural Order	2 Dryad Arbor 2 Forest 2 Bayou 1 Pendelhaven 4 Verdant Catacomb 3 Wooded Foothills 2 Windswept Heath 4 Gaea's Cradle	1 Pithing Needle 2 Surgical Extraction 1 Disfigure 2 Cabal Therapy 3 Thoughtseize 1 Null Rod 1 Sylvan Library 1 Scavenging Ooze 3 Abrupt Decay

Probably could have used Shaman of the Pack this event. Fyndhorn was really good though, so I'm not sure what the cut would be.
Sideboard felt fine, I've had Progenitus in my sideboard forever so I missed it a bit out of sideboarding habit, but it really only had a few instances were it was clearly my best option.


(0-0-1) Round 1 v UWR Stoneblade (1-1-1)
Match goes long as we stall out, I answer his Lavamancer in game three with a Pithing Needle, keep control of the board, but can't seem to find some gas to match my 3 Visionaries in play. He winds up with a Batterskull applying some pressure, but we're on turns so I play to my outs for the win, but have to accept the unfortunate fate of a draw.

Sideboard:
- Some stuff

+3 Abrupt Decay
+1 Disfigure
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Scavenging Ooze (he has flip Jace, Snapcaster, Lavamancer, etc).


(1-0-1) Round 2 v Esper Stoneblade (2-0)
He seems a bit confused in the Elves matchup. He plays an early Jitte game one, but chump blocks with some Lingering Souls tokens after I produce a Packmaster. Game two he has a turn 2 Stoneforge for Jitte, to which I have a Sylvan Library. The Library goes unanswered and I pump 8 life into it. I deal with the Jitte, then double Natural Order him to kill through TNN, Batterskull, Stoneforge x2.

Sideboard:
-2 Quirion Ranger
-1 Nettle Sentinel
-1 Heritage Druid
-1 Wren's Run Packmaster

+1 Sylvan Library
+1 Scavenging Ooze
+3 Abrupt Decay


(2-0-1) Round 3 v Reanimator (2-1)
Game one I lead on Deathrite. He Brainstorms, Ponders, and Brainstorms again. I extend a bit with Quirion, but don't play around an end of turn Entomb (Elesh Norn) -> Reanimate as I was putting him on a stoneblade or bug variant.
Game two I keep a mediocre Deathrite, Quirion, Fyndhorn, and 4 Lands. I draw another Deathrite for my Third Turn and the double Deathrite pair + Quirion and a drawn Cabal Therapy (Show and Tell) keeps him down and closes out the game.
Game three I keep Birchlore Rangers, Zenith, Surgical, Cabal Therapy, Fetch, Forest. I lead on Birchlore, Zenith for Deathrite, then tap them both to Cabal Therapy him. He Entombs an Elesh Norn in response, so I name Force of Will to open up flashback and surgical. He shows me 3 Reanimate, Abrupt Decay, Griselbrand. I flashback Therapy, taking the 3 Reanimates, pass turn. He Decays my Deathrite, I draw another, and keep control of the board until I can get an Ooze going as a 5/5.

Sideboard:
-1 Quirion Ranger
-1 Heritage Druid
-2 Wirewood Symbiote
-1 Reclamation Sage
-1 Wren's Run Packmaster
-1 Natural Order
-1 Craterhoof Behemoth

+2 Surgical Extraction
+2 Thoughtseize
+3 Cabal Therapy
+1 Scavenging Ooze


(2-1-1) Round 4 v BUG Delver
He's on the play, I mull to 6 with 1 Land, GSZ, and a bunch of good stuff. (On the draw) I GSZ for Dryad, untap and cast Visionary. He Dazes it. Untaps, Wastelands the Dryad and starts to develop a board. I can't find a mana source, so I burn another Zenith on a Dryad, but can't dig out of the hole in time after he Brainstorms into a Daze next turn.
Game two he has a turn one Delver, but can't flip for 3 turns. I stall on board with 2 Wirewood, 2 Quirion, 2 Dryad Arbor, and a Nettle, but can't find any business to get past a pair of Goyfs. The Delver takes me down.

Sideboard:
-1 Quirion Ranger
-1 Heritage Druid
-1 Nettle Sentinel
-1 Reclamation Sage
-1 Natural Order
-1 Craterhoof Behemoth

+1 Disfigure
+1 Sylvan Library
+1 Scavenging Ooze
+3 Abrupt Decay


(3-1-1) Round 5 v Maverick
I smash him with a good turn two glimpse into a turn three glimpse into a turn four glimpse into a Natural Order.
Game two he has an Early Knight of the Reliquary that beats my face for 6 thanks to Mother of Runes. I develop a board, Glimpse a bit, then Cradle into a Zenith for Hoof before he gets to kill me with the unblockable Knight.

Sideboard:
something with Abrupt Decay


(4-1-1) Round 6 v Enchantress
lol. He leads on Utopia Sprawl (white). I lead on Birchlore or something. He has a turn 2 Enchantress + Elephant Grass. I make some dudes including a Wirewood, Cradle for a bunch, then Zenith for Reclamation Sage on turn two.
From there the game is over as I cast Reclamation Sage twice each turn, Zenithing for a Heritage Druid to continue the slaughter.
Game two he leads on Forest, plays a Serra's Sanctum, plays another Forest, then dies to a well lethal hoof. Not sure what happened there.

Sideboard:
-2 Quirion Rangers
-1 Nettle Sentinel
-1 Wren's Run Packmaster

+2 Thoughtseize
+2 Abrupt Decay


(5-1-1) Round 7 v Miracles
I didn't check the standings, but was told I was 13th place going into the round. Looks like X-1-1 won't be top 8ing this event unless something strange happens I guess.
I get some early stuff going and his Counterbalance blanks. He Forces a Zenith pitching Jace TMS, then forces another pitching another JTMS, leaving him dry. I beat him down.
Game two he mulls to 3, I mull to 5. I make pressure, draw a bunch of cards with Visionary, then whisper sweet nothings into his ear as I assert my domiance.

-1 Quirion Ranger
-2 Heritage Druid
-3 Natural Order
-2 Craterhoof Behemoth

+1 Pithing Needle
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 Null Rod
+1 Sylvan Library
+3 Abrupt Decay


It was rough, but he's cool about it. There's nothing to be done really, and I guess we weren't playing for Top 8 anyways :/
Oh well, got 9th - it was a clean cut with X-1 being the required record to make it. Rough beats.
Deck felt fine, I do want to find space for Shaman I think... and I'll be benching Progenitus for the time being.

I probably won't be traveling any sort of distance for SCG events after the prize structure change. If they change the format to support store credit maybe I'll look at it, but it's not worth the trip as it stands I don't think. Philly was about a 3 hour drive for me, with $25 in gas and $20 in ridiculous toll road fees, so it might be doable again - but I certainly won't be excited about it.
Looking forward to some of the Tales of Adventure stuff though.

[Julian23]

Streaming the Legacy DE with #Elves! Tune in at twitch.tv/itsJulian for Legacy with a 3x FNM Winner!

[Capt4in]

I won a grinder at GP Seattle with elves, but went 1-3 off my byes in the main event. I also went 4-1 in a Sunday legacy side event, losing to storm (with a bonehead misplay in Game 1).

Decklist found here but I cut the Library for the main event in order to maindeck Ooze and put Teeg in the board. Coverage team also missed the pithing needle in my board.

Thoughts from the weekend:

I’m a donkey and need to practice more with the deck. I have been out of Legacy for a couple years and made some bonehead misplays due to new interactions that weren’t as prominent last time I played the deck.

Reclamation Sage is an insane card for this deck. I frequently got to smash artifact-based decks by bouncing and replaying it several times with Symbiote. It’s so much better than the old options that it’s not even funny. I am surprised that the player who top 16’d with Elves only had Sage in the board.

Infect is a pretty rough matchup that seems to be becoming more common. I’m not sure what we can reasonably do about the matchup other than running an extra needle or two for inkmoth or just crossing your fingers for a turn 2 kill.

Maindeck Ooze is pretty good in the Delver-heavy Toronto metagame, but I didn’t realize how much less Delver there is at big Legacy events. I only played against it once all weekend, and it was a Toronto-area player. I want to give Library another try, as it was underwhelming for me in the grinder I won but I played against mostly fast linear decks (Infect, MonoR Sneak Attack, Tezzerator, Storm, Dredge). I think if I were to play it I would want at least 2 total between main and sideboard.

Choke is very, very good and I feel bad for not giving it a shot sooner. I don’t plan to go back to Krosan Grips in the board anytime soon.

My absolute best matchup in the format is honestly probably Dredge. Barring the turn 1 kill from them, which is a rarity, the decks are about the same speed but Deathrite + Scavenging Ooze just make things so rough for them and they don't have a lot to disrupt us.

There is a lot of incidental Elves hate running around. I played against a Sneak and Show player with Grafdigger’s cage, Sudden Shock, and Pyroclasm (and he saw all of these in one game against me).

ANT is a much rougher matchup than TES, which I have more experience playing against. I really underestimated ANT's ability to absolutely destroy your hand with discard and still put the pieces together for a kill.

Funny bad beats story: In my first grinder, my first-round opponent curved out with Innocent Blood, Sinkhole on my Forest, Engineered Plague, Engineered Plague. In the first game. I was pretty salty and had to sit out for a couple hours before I played another grinder. I saw the guy enter the same Sunday side event as me, and he told me he was on the same deck so I bought some Lifeforces from a dealer as a joke. I ended up playing against ANT in the event and it actually seemed like it would have been pretty strong, although my opponent just took it with a turn 1 discard spell (after reading it for a minute).

[Avatar of Light]

Went 4-2-1 (2 no shows) at GP SeaTac playing Julian's list on his website. Bought my Bayous the morning of the tournament. Didn't take detailed notes so I'm going by what I remember.

Round 1: Punishing Loam 1-2 (0-1-0)
G1: He doesn't play much, nothing really going on. Hoof him turn 4/5.
G2: I did see a Grove of Burnwillows, so I should have clued in to bring in the extractions. He gets the PF combo going and I'm dead.
G3: Locks me out with Chalice at 1 and also get the PF combo going to kill anything I manage to play,

Round 2: Mirror 2-1 (1-1-0)
G1: I win the die roll, Hoof him T3. He had the kill in hand too on his turn.
G2: Took out a Sentinel for an Ooze. He wins the roll. I have the Hoof kill, but before I could go off he Glimpses through half he deck but doesn't find a NO. He does land an Elderscale Wurm so my Hoof won't kill him right away. I go for Hoof anyway since his snapback would leave me at one, and I had a DRS to reduce his life to below 7 and go for the kill. He top deck NO and I lose.
G3: Exact replica of G1. Lesson learned here: mirror comes down to the die roll.

Round 3: Shardless BUG 1-1-1 (1-1-1)
G1: He doesn't really get going and I go for the Hoof kill hoping he doesn't have the FoW. He doesn't and I win.
G2: He has answers to pretty much everything, so I couldn't amass an army. Kills me with 2 Goyfs.
G3: We go to time and can't kill each other.

Round 4: Lands 0-2 (1-2-1
G1 and G2 was pretty much him landing Tabernacle early and me not find a Cradle. Kills me with Depths/Stage G1

At this point I'm ready to drop since I can't make day two at this point, but I came to play so I kept going.

Round 5: No Show (2-2-1)

Round 6: UR Delver 2-1 (3-2-1)
G1: He doesn't have any removal/creatures until T5 so I just beat him down for the win.
G2: He has all the removal plus an early flipped Delver. I lose in short order.
G3: He gets me low early, but I manage to stablize with a Deathrite and Symbiote/Ranger plus a couple of Heritage Druids. It comes to a standstill. He had a Swiftspear and Pyromancer in play with a Jitte, but I keep blanking it with my Symbiote bouncing the blocker so that he doesn't get any counters. Meanwhile I have both Bayou and a Cradle in play. My note say I went down to 5 at one point but DRS eating all the creatures brought me out of range. I was also eating all of his spells meaning that I took him from 18 down to 1. He tried to alpha me but I just block the key guys and take the rest. Machine gun FTW. This game makes buying the Bayou worth while.

Round 7: No Show #2 (4-2-1)

At this point, my buddies were all done so I just decided to drop and go for food. Overall this was a good experience. I did miss Progenitus from the board. Would have been helpful in the Loam/Lands match up since they have no way of dealing with it. Didn't see Miracles all day, but then again I was at the lower tables.