[Primer] Elves!

[Koby]

"If you cannot handle the swings,"

..you don't play no limited hold'em aka Legacy.

Just had to get the Rounders reference in there. Great primer, thank's a lot. What I'm now looking foward to is detailed matchup analysis, especially the mirror match.

Ha! that one's easy. Be the first to play Priest of Titania, then be the first to draw your Regal Force/Behemoth/GSZ. Skill game.

[igri_is_a_bk]

Play out the first Cradle too. At least for the next month until the legend rule changes, that'll give you an edge even if you can't use the mana.

Great job on the primer, danyul! There's always more to be done with those things, but we all appreciate your time putting it together.

About Riley's list, do we think those two copies of Thoughtseize in the sb would be better as Silence or Surgical Extraction? I've never tried either spell in Elves. Does anyone have experience with them?

[Dice_Box]

I am going to run a full set of Extraction in my side tonight. I will let you know what I think of it.

[phazonmutant]

Loved the primer! Detailed and funny. One thing, though. The Alot would like to have a word with you.



Alot of words.

[Zombie]

[danyul]

LOL okay guys. I really do appreciate the kind words. I'll definitely take your suggestions and comments into consideration when I find time to make edits.

But we should talk about the deck now!

Tonight I tried Riley Curran's list from the most recent SCG Open at my local weekly and I kinda like the 2nd Dryad Arbor in the main. It helps the grindy matchups in a very subtle but tangible way. Also the MD Viridian Shaman and Scavenging Ooze were pretty spicy. I dunno. I like every elf list I play. How the shiz am I supposed to know what to do!

IRT Surgical Extraction - this card is a trap. Sometimes it does nothing. Sometimes it is a blowout. I'd much rather just run the Thoughtseize out there and guarantee some value from my SB spell. And running a full set of them is definitely sketchmode2000.

[Zombie]

Current deck:
3 Cradle
2 Rotation
2 Hoof
Shaman
Ooze
Archdruid

SB:
1 Progenitus
4 Therapy
2 Thorn
1 Teeg
1 Bog
1 Harmonic
2 Decay
2 O-Ring
1 K-Grip

Thus far in goldfishing, the third Cradle has been boss. The second turn is so much smoother. The lack of Regal/Prog/Ruric does make itself felt a bit. It's annoying to lack that inevitability option when Hoof Smash just feels like hurrying up unnecessarily.
Thoughts on the board? Have you found the 4th NO important? I feel kind of iffy about the Grip, but then again Miracles and Leyline of Sanctity are a bitch. The O-Rings are hedge against SnT and just a random catchall.

EDIT: One thing I'm also thinking about is swapping either the Grip or the Archdruid for Sylvan Safekeeper.

[catmint]

For me the 2nd dryad arbor goes to the side for all NO-Prog matchups.

One maindeck ooze and another one in the side are set for me. This creature is way to important in the Delver matchup.

[lordofthepit]

Thats because it does not go into to the deck. There is both no space for it and no strong reason to run it.

3-toughness is tech because it can block Dark Confidant in combat. I would suggest Elvish Archers but 3-toughness helps against Grim Lavamancer and Rough/Tumble.

Also, Wirewood Symbiote isn't even an elf. I get that it protects your creatures from removal, but Troll Ascetic is immune to removal and survives all the cards above. If we can make room for non-elf like Symbiote, I think we can fit a Troll in.

[LeoCop 90]

Lord of the Pit : This thread was created just 2 days ago and danyul has put a lot of work in it, so please could you stop trolling? Or do you think anyone will consider your words when you are suggesting Nissa's Chosen ?

I have a question : how can we make 4 mana turn 2 to cast a natural order using quirion ranger? i read it in the old thread(then forgot it) and now I'm assuming the only way is :
-turn 1 forest llanowar
-turn 2 tap forest play quirion. Play cradle, tap it for 2 mana, tap llanowar, return the forest to your hand, untap llanowar and tap it again.
Am I right or other methods exist?

these interactions are the ones that make me a bit skeptical about running a full set of deathrite shaman. A lot of times there won't be 2 lands in graveyards during the second turn, so a llanowar elf is better in these scenarios. I well know the strenght of deathrite, but I think next time i will run 3 of them and 1 more llanowar.


Dice Box: I am a long time goblins player too, and although i feel the matchup is a bit favourable to elves, defining it almost a bye seems too much. i won several games with goblins vs elves. Don't forget that most goblins lists play sharpshooter main deck, so the elves player is forced to win as late as turn three because an active sharpshooter is an autoloss. Not that is difficult for elves to win turn three, and not that the opponent will always have shooter in hand, but this must be taken in consideration. Things can get difficult if goblins is on the play and starts with lackey ; in this case you must land a deathrite or nettle sentinel to be safe (unless they have a tarfire or stingscourger in hand), or be forced to trade one of you 1/1 with lackey and slow your game down.

After sideboarding cards like pyrokinesis and chalice of the void are a real pain for the elves, so the matchup feels much more equilibrated.

[Julian23]

Ha! that one's easy. Be the first to play Priest of Titania, then be the first to draw your Regal Force/Behemoth/GSZ. Skill game.

So how do you feel about Cabal Therapy? Over the last two tournaments I went 4-1 and 3-1, each time only losing the mirror match. It just felt like a race into who would be able to win on turn2.

[Tangente]

I have a question : how can we make 4 mana turn 2 to cast a natural order using quirion ranger? i read it in the old thread(then forgot it) and now I'm assuming the only way is :
-turn 1 forest llanowar
-turn 2 tap forest play quirion. Play cradle, tap it for 2 mana, tap llanowar, return the forest to your hand, untap llanowar and tap it again.
Am I right or other methods exist?

There are a lot of methods. Off the top of my head:

(1) T1 play forest and Quirion, T2 play forest and Nettle plus Heritage, tap them for 3 mana, play one more elf, untap with Quirion and again tap for 3 mana
(2) T1 play forest and Nettle, T2 play forest and Nettle plus Heritage, tap them for 3 mana, play one more elf and again tap for 3 mana
(3) T1 play forest and ranom elf, T2 play Cradle and random elf plus Heritage, tap them for 3 mana (1 mana left from Cradle)
(4) T1 play forest and mana elf, T2 play Cradle and Birchlore and random elf, tap Cradle for 3 and two guys for 1
(5) T1 play forest and random elf, T2 play forest and Nettle plus Heritage, tap them for 3 mana, play Symbiote, return tapped elf and untap other tapped elf, replay returned elf and finaly tap them for 3 mana.

[catmint]

Also a reason why I still play ruric thar. Altough 4mana T3 is much more common, I want every NO to become a "hate piece" vs. combo.

[Kayradis]

Great primer. I found myself playing more and more of the combo-ish green dudes recently.

[nudon]

There are a lot of methods. Off the top of my head:

(1) T1 play forest and Quirion, T2 play forest and Nettle plus Heritage, tap them for 3 mana, play one more elf, untap with Quirion and again tap for 3 mana
(2) T1 play forest and Nettle, T2 play forest and Nettle plus Heritage, tap them for 3 mana, play one more elf and again tap for 3 mana
(3) T1 play forest and ranom elf, T2 play Cradle and random elf plus Heritage, tap them for 3 mana (1 mana left from Cradle)
(4) T1 play forest and mana elf, T2 play Cradle and Birchlore and random elf, tap Cradle for 3 and two guys for 1
(5) T1 play forest and random elf, T2 play forest and Nettle plus Heritage, tap them for 3 mana, play Symbiote, return tapped elf and untap other tapped elf, replay returned elf and finaly tap them for 3 mana.

6. T1 forest->mana elf, T2 ranger+heritage druid off double forest, tap for 3, bounce forest and untap mana elf
7. T1 forest->mana elf, T2 symbiote + cmc1 elf off mana elf and forest, cradle for 3, bounce cmc1 elf and untap mana elf

Edit: 8. T1 forest->ranger, T2 ranger+heritage druid off double forest, tap for 3, play another elf and bounce 2 forests to untap 2 elves, tap for 3
9. T1 forest->ranger, T2 cmc1 elf+heritage druid off double forest, tap for 3, play 2 cmc1 elves, bounce forest and untap elf, tap for 3

[Koby]

10. forest GSZ for Arbor, turn 2 cradle, Ranger = 4 mana

[andrebonotto]

danyul,

Here's one more to congrat you for the new primer. Good job!

One more thing: you might consider worth add to the "tricks" section, that "10 ways of casting Natural Order on T2" that our colleagues just described.

...

[EDIT]

P.S.: Regarding the "History of the Deck", just to mention it, some french Elfball players at www.legacy-france.org have been playing with "Gw Mirror Entity Elves" for quite some time before Chris Andersen try it. Maybe the user named "blind" could be a little more precise on this matter, if he is still following this thread.

(I try to keep up with their debate often, but it is a little bit difficult task for me, since I do not master the french language very well, and they seem to be a little more 'unforgivable' to 'outsiders'/'newcomers'...)

[nudon]

I think it'll be helpful to group similar T2 NO hands together and state interchangeable parts for those unaware. Nettle and ranger are generally interchangeable. With a mana dork and cradle in play, ranger, symbiote+cmc1, and birchlore+cmc1 are interchangeable. Birchlore+nettle can often be substituted for a heritage druid. To illustrate, I grouped several of the "permutations" together below.

mana dork, ranger / symbiote+cmc1 / birchlore+cmc1, cradle (OP, 4, 7, 10)
heritage druid, 2 cmc1, cradle (3)
mana elf, ranger+heritage druid (6)
heritage druid, 2 ranger / nettle / symbiote+cmc1 (1, 2, 5, 8)

[Dice_Box]

Ok, ran Extraction last night, my thoughts on the card.

As dedicated grave hate:
Last night was the first time I ran the deck with DRS. Extraction was just not needed. When I has sided in, I wanted total grave hate, not piecemeal hate. I would have killed for a Crypt, hell Loaming Shaman would have been good. I wanted something that would end totally the situation at hand. Not something that would remove a single card. DRS fixed each issue just fine when I had it, a Crypt would have work out just fine as a back up.

As a Counter killer:
Hitting FOW was fun, knowing it was gone was good. But it did not pay it's way when I needed to draw something useful. The counter had been played, I had lost the card I wanted or I had at least used something that was of a high enough value that is was worthy of a counter. I would have been happy to draw something else of "Counter worthlyness" than this card after that. Something like NO or GSZ, this was useful, but it was not helping me get ahead, not helping win.

As an information source:
I got to see the deck I was playing against. Thats great, really. I can not say enough how much I liked this. Seeing the other guys hand tho, I would have rathered a discard card than this. Since it is not mainboard anyway, 7 times out of 10 I think you will have a fair idea of what you are playing against. While looking at a deck is great for siding for game 3, so is seeing how you lost in game two. Info is great, but you do not need a card for it.

As a land killer:
I thought this would be where the money was. Take out their fetchlands and watch the deck crumple. Thing is it just does not work well enough. If I was playing with Wasteland than I can see this working. But with most decks are running DRS and such a low CMC base, killing 3 fetches from the deck is not anywhere near as useful as hitting fetch targets. If I played like this I would want to hit non basic mana lands. Even then its not great since most decks only run 2 or so of each dual.

So final thoughts: There are better cards out there.

[SpencerS]

Thankyou so much for starting a new Elves thread.

I feel like we can actually start to have real discussions now!

Is this an appropriate place to put forth tournament reports? I have gone to the last 2 SCG Seattle opens, ( 26th and 72?nd) and would love to share the last one in preparation for the one in Sept!