[Primer] Elves!

[Julian23]

I was recently invited as a guest on MTG Training Ground's "Legacy's Allure" video interview series; thought some of you might like it. Zach Koch is doing a great job editing these:

http://itsjulian.com/?p=2031

In general it's somewhat more geared to people who aren't 100% familiar with Elves.

[Tormod]

I was recently invited as a guest on MTG Training Ground's "Legacy's Allure" video interview series; thought some of you might like it. Zach Koch is doing a great job editing these:

http://itsjulian.com/?p=2031

In general it's somewhat more geared to people who aren't 100% familiar with Elves.

Nice video Julian

I would have liked to see a little more on sideboarding vs various match ups. I've been playing Elves for quite sometime but I still think I mess up sideboarding vs various match ups.

[mistercakes]

Nice video Julian

I would have liked to see a little more on sideboarding vs various match ups. I've been playing Elves for quite sometime but I still think I mess up sideboarding vs various match ups.

agreed with the video, it was good to hear a general thought process.

to get a little more action on these forums we should set a 15 card sb and each give our choice of how we would sb vs a specific matchup (on the play, and another for on the draw)

using Julian's recent list for reference:

Maindeck
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Nettle Sentinel
3 Heritage Druid
3 Quirion Ranger
2 Llanowar Elves
1 Craterhoof Behemooth
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Shaman of the Pack
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wren’s Run Packmaster
1 Gaddock Teeg

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
1 Crop Rotation

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Gaea’s Cradle
2 Bayou
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Pendelhaven
1 Savannah

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Karakas


VS Miracles:

+6

3 Abrupt Decay
1 Garruk Relentless
2 pithing needle

-6

1 llanowar elves
2 nettle sentinel
2 heritage druid
1 craterhoof behemoth

logic here:

on cuts:

1 llanowar elves seem a little underwhelming here. i still want to keep 1 as a reasonable turn 1 play.
2 nettle sentinel. this might be a mistake as i don't have a ton of experience with the deck. the 2/2 body doesn't seem huge here, and the mana producing ability doesn't seem like it can get out of hand with StP + terminus.
2 heritage druid. same logic for nettle sentinel.
-1 craterhoof behemoth: feels unlikely that we need a big finish here, especially with terminus available most of the time. it seems like when we would have an out, gaddock teeg is necessary and then we won't be able to GSZ for it.
-1 forest



3 abrupt decay: seems pretty standard to deal with counterbalance. (no explanation here for me, maybe some can argue to play 2)
1 garruk relentless: in the past cards like bitterblossom and other token makers have been really difficult for miracles to deal with.
2 pithing needle: turning off top, jace, and randomly fetch lands. better than null rod here? not sure, depends on if they play explosives or not. (might be overlooking another artifact as well)
1 karakas: they aren't really going to hit our basic forest and we can keep gaddock teeg alive, as well as deal with clique or venser (not ideal but could remove it from blocking)

i could see reasons to play some of the discard or even surgical, but i didn't want to neuter the deck too much and this seems reasonable to me.

thoughts? comments? other ways to sb with this matchup?

-Rob

[Svyelunite]

Nice video Julian

I would have liked to see a little more on sideboarding vs various match ups. I've been playing Elves for quite sometime but I still think I mess up sideboarding vs various match ups.

When I'm well established as a Webcaster/Podcaster, I'll definitely be taking requests for episode topics. If this is what you'd like to see, make sure to like us on Facebook (https://www.facebook.com/MTG-Trainin...0219696090260/) and recommend it as a topic! I'm sure Julian would be willing to come back and dig deeper into the subject

[Nargoron]

agreed with the video, it was good to hear a general thought process.

to get a little more action on these forums we should set a 15 card sb and each give our choice of how we would sb vs a specific matchup (on the play, and another for on the draw)

using Julian's recent list for reference:

Maindeck
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
3 Nettle Sentinel
3 Heritage Druid
3 Quirion Ranger
2 Llanowar Elves
1 Craterhoof Behemooth
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Shaman of the Pack
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wren’s Run Packmaster
1 Gaddock Teeg

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
1 Sylvan Library
1 Crop Rotation

4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
4 Gaea’s Cradle
2 Bayou
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Forest
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Pendelhaven
1 Savannah

Sideboard
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Garruk Relentless
1 Karakas


VS Miracles:

+6

3 Abrupt Decay
1 Garruk Relentless
2 pithing needle

-6

1 llanowar elves
2 nettle sentinel
2 heritage druid
1 craterhoof behemoth

logic here:

on cuts:

1 llanowar elves seem a little underwhelming here. i still want to keep 1 as a reasonable turn 1 play.
2 nettle sentinel. this might be a mistake as i don't have a ton of experience with the deck. the 2/2 body doesn't seem huge here, and the mana producing ability doesn't seem like it can get out of hand with StP + terminus.
2 heritage druid. same logic for nettle sentinel.
-1 craterhoof behemoth: feels unlikely that we need a big finish here, especially with terminus available most of the time. it seems like when we would have an out, gaddock teeg is necessary and then we won't be able to GSZ for it.
-1 forest



3 abrupt decay: seems pretty standard to deal with counterbalance. (no explanation here for me, maybe some can argue to play 2)
1 garruk relentless: in the past cards like bitterblossom and other token makers have been really difficult for miracles to deal with.
2 pithing needle: turning off top, jace, and randomly fetch lands. better than null rod here? not sure, depends on if they play explosives or not. (might be overlooking another artifact as well)
1 karakas: they aren't really going to hit our basic forest and we can keep gaddock teeg alive, as well as deal with clique or venser (not ideal but could remove it from blocking)

i could see reasons to play some of the discard or even surgical, but i didn't want to neuter the deck too much and this seems reasonable to me.

thoughts? comments? other ways to sb with this matchup?

-Rob

QQ no love for chokes

But your sideboarding:
you side out 6x creatures, which make your glimpse much worse, could be tricky

side out behemoth ... could be mistake, i am no sure about this. Especialy when u keep 4x copy of cradle and 1x crop rotation
When iam talking about crop rotation, its the card which i probably side out against deck with so many counters like miracles - but if you wanna bring karakas, then is crop rotation more valuable..
-1 forest - dont forget that blood moon is nothing rare in miracles side package, i rather side out one cradle ( )

1 Garruk Relentless - love this card, iam glad julian show its power

Few week ago i was posting Arlinn Kord , but only gets mockery for that post...
but still i think its better then garruk relentless... or its better for MU when u wanna bring garruk relentless.. but its only for red splash. not white like in Julians list :)

[Echelon]

Few week ago i was posting Arlinn Kord , but only gets mockery for that post...
but still i think its better then garruk relentless... or its better for MU when u wanna bring garruk relentless.. but its only for red splash. not white like in Julians list :)

Garruk still is better. He's a token factory 24/7, Arlinn only works 12 hour shifts.

[Julian23]

I started boarding out 2-3 Gaea's Cradle vs Miracles last year and have had great success with it. Otherwise I usually cut down QR, NS and HD to a single copy if needed. Then maybe also 1 Glimpse if I take out *that* many creatures.

I like brining in Decays, Needles, Null Rods and sometimes 1-2 Surgical Extractions even though they aren't stellar. They are better vs dedicated 4 Ponder "European" Miracles and significantly worse vs a Joe-style Legends build. Other than that I also don't hate Thoughtseize which I will usually bring in. And Garruk if I have it, of course.

[jamie7keller]

I havn't gotten to play much lately and am behind on my tech. I am still struggling to adjust my play to take advantage of Chaos Elves, which I have been convinced (Mostly by Julian's success) is the way to go.

So Garruk. garruk?

I read it's good for delver matchups. My head worries that he dies to a single delver hit, but i guess you just don't play him when there is a delver on board?

I 100% believe you all that it is good, but help me understand how and when. It seems slow and vulnerable to fliers.

[mistercakes]

good points nargoon.

i do like crop rotation because it can fetch me the cavern of souls. i think maybe cutting 1-2 cradle wouldn't be so bad, and then cutting 1 glimpse as well as julian said makes a lot of sense to free up some slots.

julian: do you have much success with craterhoof in post sb games vs miracles? the main reason why i was cutting llanowar elves over quirion ranger is to get some more activations out of deathrite shaman. thoughts?

[Nargoron]

I was in clup to make some testing today and my results:

I was playing all the time only against miracles
My SB looks like:

3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Karakas
1 Null Rod
2 Choke
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Garruk Relentless (give him try today..)
1 Pithing Needle

Sideboarding:
+3 Abrupt Decay
+1 Null Rod
+1 Pithing Needle
+1 Garruk Relentless
+2 Choke

-1 Quirion Ranger
-2 Nettle Sentinel
-1 Gaea's Cradle
-1 Craterhoof Behemoth
-1 heritage Druid
-1 Glimpse of Nature
-1 Crop Rotation

Before sideboarding i felt pretty hopeless..
But with SB i felt much more comfortable... something like 2:1 wins
Choke is just nightmare for miracles and if resolve its often GG
Pithing needle and null rod piss them off
Onec i was looking on army of monks army and wish to have Behemoth in deck, but i manage to combo to victory with double glimpse and then Shaman of the pack did the job.

Garruk Relentless vs. Arlinn Kord:
iam not still convinced that garruk is better... but give some time to this question.

[Shagstaman]

Nice video Julian

I would have liked to see a little more on sideboarding vs various match ups. I've been playing Elves for quite sometime but I still think I mess up sideboarding vs various match ups.

When Zach and I were brainstorming ideas for this video series I was like "oh I know who has to do the Elves one" and referred him to Julian (even tho I secretly wouldn't have minded doing it). I too enjoyed the breakdown, ;)

Tormod, out of curiosity what matchups are you having issues with? I've got most known archetypes down to a science at this point as far as sb'ing/strategy. Honestly this is a large gap between the average/good elves players and the really good ones.

[Shagstaman]

on the topic of matchups......I have lost to Eldrazi 3 times outta 3 by the way...playing traditional NO build.. any suggestions? I am running one MD cavern and MD WRP, so I have the "key" cards to help in the matchup-- maybe I am just getting unlucky? It feels like a very even matchup but I could use any advice I can get.

[square_two]

When Zach and I were brainstorming ideas for this video series I was like "oh I know who has to do the Elves one" and referred him to Julian (even tho I secretly wouldn't have minded doing it). I too enjoyed the breakdown, ;)

Tormod, out of curiosity what matchups are you having issues with? I've got most known archetypes down to a science at this point as far as sb'ing/strategy. Honestly this is a large gap between the average/good elves players and the really good ones.

I'd love to see a thorough sideboarding guide for Elves. I feel like a competent player, except for when it comes to sideboarding.

Anyone have extensive experience with Blood Moon? I tried that last week at my local legacy FNM. Taiga main, with Ruric Thar and couple of Blood Moons in the side. Would have wrecked my lands opponent if I had drawn them in time.

[Shagstaman]

I'd love to see a thorough sideboarding guide for Elves. I feel like a competent player, except for when it comes to sideboarding.

Anyone have extensive experience with Blood Moon? I tried that last week at my local legacy FNM. Taiga main, with Ruric Thar and couple of Blood Moons in the side. Would have wrecked my lands opponent if I had drawn them in time.

Well there's so many decks, I don't have time to break them all down-- but outside of common sense stuff like needle vs pwalkers and sneak attack and null rod vs top and metalworker, here's some popular decks and how I sb vs them:

first off my build:
MD:
traditional NO build but a few slight differences: 3 heritage, 4 nettle, 1 wrp, 1 cavern over the pendelhaven

SB:
3 decay
1 maelstrom pulse (could be another decay but im hedging vs eldrazi)
1 ruric
1 elderscale
1 prog
1 scooze
4 therapy
1 library
1 surgical
1 null rod

vs delver decks:
-2 heritage, -1 craterhoof, -1 glimpse, -1 gsz
+3 decay, +1 scooze, +1 fattie (depends on the flavor of delver and if you think your opponent is a blatant net-decker or true delver aficionado-- vs. decks that might have submerge or vs BUG you bring in prog, vs. decks that don't have goyf you bring in ruric, and vs. grixis delver they can't reliably beat elderscale wurm)

vs "faster" combo:
-2 wirewood, -3 visionary, -1 WRP, -1 craterhoof, -1 cavern (unless FOW combo), -1 rec sage (unless sneak/Omni)
+4 therapy, +1 fattie depending on the combo (sneak-prog, storm-ruric, etc), +1-3 utility card depending on combo (rod/scooze/surgical vs storm, pulse/rod vs belcher, prog/pulse vs sneak attack)

vs BGx decks (including shardless):
-2 heritage, -1 nettle, -1 glimpse, -1 gsz, -1 craterhoof
+1 prog, +1 scooze, +3 decay, +1 pulse (if it is a punishing fire deck, replace pulse with surgical)

vs DnT:
-1 WRP, -1 craterhoof, -1 gsz, -1 heritage, -1 cavern
+3 decay, +1 pulse, +1 prog

vs Miracles:
-2 NO, -2 heritage, -1 glimpse, -1 nettle
+1 null rod, +3 decay, +1 pulse, +1 library

vs Lands:
-2 heritage, -1 wirewood, -1 visionary, -1 craterhoof
+1 prog, +1 elderscale (most builds literally can't beat this card), +1 scooze, +1 surgical, +1-2 decay (only if you think they have sb hate like cage or chalice--some do, some don't.. if you're unsure, better off hedging than not)

vs Reanimator:
- expectation of winning
+ prayers
(ok, but really...-3 visionary, -2 wirewood, -1 rec sage, -1 WRP) +4 cabal, +1 surgical, +1 scooze, +1 progenitus

ummm that's all I got for now. Any questions just lmk. Keep in mind, as with all sb guides, this is all dependent on your opponent and if you see some funny cards MD, you may need to adjust as necessary. Also, there are sometimes you notice your opponent isn't very well-versed against elves (like when they have to read quirion ranger 10 times), in which case you might be best off just staying a pure combo deck in sb games because they likely don't know how to break up your main deck plan--be smart tho, don't underestimate...

[.Ix]

How do you board against infect?

Played against it for the first time last night. I had a really hard time, losing after seizing a glistener, decaying an agent, and pithing on nexus. I had an opening to blind therapy for anything but I didn't know what to call. Turns out he had invigorate in hand.

[elFinFas]

I think the deck to beat at this moment is eldrazi!
We should be talking about that!
What kind of techs do you are using?
What are your sideboard sugestions?

[Shagstaman]

How do you board against infect?

Played against it for the first time last night. I had a really hard time, losing after seizing a glistener, decaying an agent, and pithing on nexus. I had an opening to blind therapy for anything but I didn't know what to call. Turns out he had invigorate in hand.

Infect is a hard matchup... basic sb plan is:

+3 decay
+needles if u have them
+4 cabal therapy
+1 ruric

-2 visionary
-3 symbiote
-1 WRP
-1 hoof
-1 rec sage

if u have more discard, you bring that in as well. Essentially they are "a turn faster combo deck with blue" aka hard ass matchup without pro therapies. The key names for therapy will be brainstorm (if they are tapped out and you want to make sure to flashback to hit pump spells), invigorate (without it they kinda can't kill you fast enough), and berserk (there are times when it's the ONLY way you die before they do.). If you are in a combo turn, therapy on force of will can work but generally you want therapies to be defensive not offensive. Don't be scared to flash back and whittle your own board down--you rebuild faster than they do! Just remember they normally can't 1-shot you, so look out for the set-up turn of exalted attack for 2 infect...that's a big signal you need to win or disrupt them ASAP. Last note: keep an eye out for become immense ammo--use DRS to shrink their yard when possible.

[.Ix]

I boarded in that package but I think I removed some Glimpses. Boarding out so many creatures makes it kind of bad. Is symbiote fogging not relevant in the matchup?

[elFinFas]

I only sideboard 1 needle for 1 sage in the infect matchup!
Is about who combo first!
The only card that is a nightmare is berserk!
Decay is too slow.


And i am going to say it again... The eldrazi matchup should be the topic number 1 right now.

[Lemnear]

I only sideboard 1 needle for 1 sage in the infect matchup!
Is about who combo first!
The only card that is a nightmare is berserk!
Decay is too slow.


And i am going to say it again... The eldrazi matchup should be the topic number 1 right now.

And what are you afraid of here?